How Should We Read the Church Fathers?

Grailhunter · Dec 12, 2019

Which has nothing to do with the fact that I said we are to rebuke false teachers. That is COMMANDED in Scripture. It IS following the Lord to rebuke false teaching (such as LDS).

Man you have to be kidding! Christianity own satanic organization....,the Calvinists...born from hell. And you are the judge of false teaching? Did God make you say that?

Jane_Doe22 · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
Which has nothing to do with the fact that I said we are to rebuke false teachers. That is COMMANDED in Scripture. It IS following the Lord to rebuke false teaching (such as LDS).

"Bob" is a teacher.
"Steve" is Bob's pupil and the Lord testifies to Steve that Bob is a good teacher.

You disagree and believe that Bob is a false teacher.

Now, who should Steve believe as to whether or not Bob is a good teacher?

He can either listen to you, or the testimony he receives from the Lord.

Truther · Dec 12, 2019

Episkopos said:
It isn't the early church fathers that brought division...it is men like Luther who re-interpreted the bible with a carnal understanding and thus opened up the interpretation of the bible to whatever feels good to the reader.

One day the whole reformation will be seen for what it is...a great delusion. And I say this as a non-Catholic...or from any other human opinion.

The ECF were good examples to all who would follow Christ. Both Ignatius and Polycarp were martyrs who were sacrificed to the pagan mob in the arena. Polycarp was such a godly man that the mob felt that it was wrong to sacrifice any more Christians...and the persecutions stopped for awhile.

I disagree, the early church fathers were the ones that the apostles were speaking about which would change doctrine, creating doctrines of Devils. They were not thinking 2000 years down the road but thinking about their time, even after their departure.

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

Jane_Doe22 said:
"Bob" is a teacher.
"Steve" is Bob's pupil and the Lord testifies to Steve that Bob is a good teacher.

You disagree and believe that Bob is a false teacher.

Now, who should Steve believe as to whether or not Bob is a good teacher?

He can either listen to you, or the testimony he receives from the Lord.

You test it against Scripture.

Stan B · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
The answer to this is not difficult. We should use the ECF as we use any other commentary. It is useful for study and instruction but must always be tested against the Scriptures. The Scriptures and Scriptures alone have the final say in all matters of faith and practice. The ECF did get things wrong, and often, they even contradicted each other. Scripture, on the other hand, has no contradictions. It is the perfect and holy words of God.

I have all 38 volumes of the Ante-Nicean and Post-Nicean Fathers, and have studied them extensively. They provide me with an insight as to what the Early Church believed. They range in value from the hot air expelled by Origen to the modern day solid Evangelical teachings like Tertullian. And for historical foundations and pillars of the Faith, Athanasius is my favourite, as the authority for the Canon of Scripture.

Once we get to "Saint" Augustine all bets are off. He lived in a fantasy world, and is the author of the pagan idea of original sin, and infant baptism, later adopted by Jerome, who declared that an infant who died without being baptised, i.e. sprinkled could never enter Heaven!

So, just as today, there are a lot of diverse opinions out there.

amadeus · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
Again, you need to learn what prophesy actually meant in the Greek.

Must we trust only those people who are now able to read with understanding what was written in the original languages? What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit in a person?

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

amadeus said:
Must we trust only those people who are now able to read with understanding what was written in the original languages? What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit in a person?

The Bible was not written in English so yes you should study original languages.

Jane_Doe22 · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
You test it against Scripture.

That is part of the seeking the Lord. Now, I'm going to ask again:

"Bob" is a teacher.
"Steve" is Bob's pupil and the Lord testifies to Steve that Bob is a good teacher )yes this includes from prayer and scripture study).

You disagree and believe that Bob is a false teacher.

Now, who should Steve believe as to whether or not Bob is a good teacher?

He can either listen to you, or the testimony he receives from the Lord.

amadeus · Dec 12, 2019

Truther said:
I don't read any ECF, nor do I read any commentary anymore.

I only read the Bible as the lone source.

I don't mind historical references, but to listen to commentary which is nearly always wrong in some way....no thanks.

How do we think the Christian faith splintered into hundreds of groups, all thinking theirs is best?

Right, it all began with some fella's "writings".

I don't want what someone has to say about something, but I want the something someone is talking about.

When we read our printed Bibles, are we not trusting that God guided the efforts of those who transcribed and translated what was first written by down as men were anointed to write. Many, like myself, don't read Hebrew or Aramaic or Koine Greek so who are we trusting when we read a Bible written in English? God alone? What of the translators? What about learning from Teachers, Evangelists and Pastors today who use the same Bibles we read? Yes we do and should sift through their input by the Holy Spirit, and do we never glean anything that we retain?

What about learning from other people on this forum? We today are also "some fella" who write when we post something to this thread on this forum. Does no one here ever write anything worth reading? If not, why are we here?

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

Jane_Doe22 said:
That is part of the seeking the Lord. Now, I'm going to ask again:

"Bob" is a teacher.
"Steve" is Bob's pupil and the Lord testifies to Steve that Bob is a good teacher )yes this includes from prayer and scripture study).

You disagree and believe that Bob is a false teacher.

Now, who should Steve believe as to whether or not Bob is a good teacher?

He can either listen to you, or the testimony he receives from the Lord.

He will not get something from the Lord that is contrary to Scripture.

amadeus · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
The Bible was not written in English so yes you should study original languages.

Nothing wrong with that for some people but not everyone has the ability or aptitude to follow that pathway successfully. Are only those able to do what you suggest then able to be saved?

What happened to the leading of the Holy Spirit?

How many people were saved when most people in world were illiterate?

There are certainly many illiterate people on planet Earth today. When I was still working, dealing directly with the public in the United States I encountered many people who were at best only semi-literate. They could not understand many of the letters and directions sent to them written in English so they came to our offices so someone would help them understand what they could not understand alone.

Is literacy a prerequisite for salvation?

Episkopos · Dec 12, 2019

Truther said:
I disagree, the early church fathers were the ones that the apostles were speaking about which would change doctrine, creating doctrines of Devils. They were not thinking 2000 years down the road but thinking about their time, even after their departure.

They thought that the kingdom was going to come in power...that Jesus would return shortly.

But the point is that we each have to have that idea in our own time. They can't make it easier for us. And you are missing the truth that it was the reformation that brought the doctrines of men into the picture...in these end times.
The doctrine of devils is right now! Just look at how the reformation is seen as something good.

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

amadeus said:
What happened to the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Well the Holy Spirit will not lead against Scripture. So if you say something is from the Spirit and it is against Scripture it may be from a spirit but not the Holy one.

amadeus said:
Are only those able to do what you suggest then able to be saved?

I've never suggested that.

amadeus said:
How many people were saved when most people in world were illiterate?

Reading is not the only way to hear the Gospel.

amadeus said:
Is literacy a prerequisite for salvation?

Never even came close to claiming such.

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

Episkopos said:
And you are missing the truth that it was the reformation that brought the doctrines of men into the picture...in these end times.
The doctrine of devils is right now! Just look at how the reformation is seen as something good.

Oh good grief. The Reformation brought back fidelity to the Scriptures, not man-made doctrines.

Episkopos · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
Oh good grief. The Reformation brought back fidelity to the Scriptures, not man-made doctrines.

Yep...up is now down and down is now up! Enjoy the delusion.

Jane_Doe22 · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
He will not get something from the Lord that is contrary to Scripture.

That's no answering my question. I'll ask a third time:

"Bob" is a teacher.
"Steve" is Bob's pupil and the Lord testifies to Steve that Bob is a good teacher )yes this includes from prayer and scripture study).

You disagree and believe that Bob is a false teacher.

Now, who should Steve believe as to whether or not Bob is a good teacher?

He can either listen to you, or the testimony he receives from the Lord.

amadeus · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
The Bible was not written in English so yes you should study original languages.

So then are you saying that anyone who cannot or does not for good reason or bad is lost?

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

amadeus said:
So then are you saying that anyone who cannot or does not for good reason or bad is lost?

I have said nothing of the kind.

reformed1689 · Dec 12, 2019

Jane_Doe22 said:
That's no answering my question. I'll ask a third time:

"Bob" is a teacher.
"Steve" is Bob's pupil and the Lord testifies to Steve that Bob is a good teacher )yes this includes from prayer and scripture study).

You disagree and believe that Bob is a false teacher.

Now, who should Steve believe as to whether or not Bob is a good teacher?

He can either listen to you, or the testimony he receives from the Lord.

If the "testimony he receives from the Lord" then it would agree with Scripture 100% and therefore, I would not disagree and believe Bob to be a false teacher. So yes, I did actually answer your question. If someone "receives" a "testimony from the Lord" that is contrary to Scripture, it did not come from God but from a devil.

Jane_Doe22 · Dec 12, 2019

David Taylor said:
If the "testimony he receives from the Lord" then it would agree with Scripture 100% and therefore, I would not disagree and believe Bob to be a false teacher. So yes, I did actually answer your question. If someone "receives" a "testimony from the Lord" that is contrary to Scripture, it did not come from God but from a devil.

But anybody who disagrees with you and your interpretation of scripture is automatically wrong, and therefore needs to be your disciple?

Are you claiming to be God?

How Should We Read the Church Fathers?

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