Regeneration before or after saving faith

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

God tells us both truths psalm 14
Psalm110.
It looks like what is absurd is you pretending to have a handle on biblical teach.
It is obvious you have not looked at the teaching.

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Or maybe your belief is just nonsensical

you complain about people mocking you, yet here you are mocking him

he asks a questions, you inevitable answer is he just does not understand the Bible

that is not a biblical answer at all, and does not answer his question

in reality, people say this for one reason. They can not answer the question and they know it, so they have to try to take the focus of self and place the onus or focus back on the other,

pits a sad tactic, but easily seen, and it happens far to often

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

They are not mocking, they are correctly identifying the foolish ,responses you offer. If you want a biblical response, try a biblical question.

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Lol

if they were arminians and answering you like they have responded here you would be all over them.
Again, this type of argument just makes you look bad.

Sadly this is a typical response of many people, on both sides.
You do not get the answer you want, so you claim they did not answer,

sometimes however, they have not gotten an answer, they get a half answer or an answer to something not even pertaining to their question, then get mocked when they claim their question was not answered,

we need to be careful we are not the ones only giving half answers or side stepping the questions and giving another answer, or worse yet, a mocking answer which does not truly answer at all (like you do not understand the Bible). And if we do, we have to be man or woman enough and humble enough to be kind when we get the feedback we should know we are going to get when giving such answers

otherwise we just look foolish

Eternally Grateful said:

Sadly this is a typical response of many people, on both sides.
You do not get the answer you want, so you claim they did not answer,

sometimes however, they have not gotten an answer, they get a half answer or an answer to something not even pertaining to their question, then get mocked when they claim their question was not answered,

we need to be careful we are not the ones only giving half answers or side stepping the questions and giving another answer, or worse yet, a mocking answer which does not truly answer at all (like you do not understand the Bible). And if we do, we have to be man or woman enough and humble enough to be kind when we get the feedback we should know we are going to get when giving such answers

otherwise we just look foolish

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No. Go back and read our convo. She never answered me. Not once. She would reply with more questions, but never did answer me. Read it for yourself.

SovereignGrace said:

No. Go back and read our convo. She never answered me. Not once. She would reply with more questions, but never did answer me. Read it for yourself.

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It is impossible to convince those who are willfully blind.

Preacher4Truth said:

It is impossible to convince those who are willfully blind.

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Willfully blind puts the nail on the head.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

It is obvious you do not understand the teaching.
If you did you would not ask such a misguided question.
I asked you to quote a Calvinist teaching such a false idea...quote one, I will wait.

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That's easy: John Piper:
"we can say, first, that regeneration is the cause of faith… Having been born of God results in our believing. Our believing is the immediate evidence of God’s begetting.” [1]

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

God tells us both truths psalm 14
Psalm110.
It looks like what is absurd is you pretending to have a handle on biblical teach.
It is obvious you have not looked at the teaching.

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I've actually spent quite a bit of time studying the teaching. So you admit that you are embracing a contradiction?

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

They are not mocking, they are correctly identifying the foolish ,responses you offer. If you want a biblical response, try a biblical question.

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I have numerous times.

SovereignGrace said:

No. Go back and read our convo. She never answered me. Not once. She would reply with more questions, but never did answer me. Read it for yourself.

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I was not mocking you bro just making a general comment. It’s an issue we have on both sides the response was actually for everyone. I probably should have not tagged you on it

let me correct that

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Respectful would be when you actually answer what you are asked. Twice you have made false statements.
You have been asked to give direct quotes to support your claim.
I think you made it up, but will wait for your quotes.
Show quotes from a puritan, or even a modern day believer that supports your statement.
No more questions until you show such quotes, or admit you pulled these ideas out of your butt.

My "repeated comments" are scripture found in psalm14,Roman's 3

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Oh the arrogance! Calvin himself embraced the exact same contradiction, claiming both that God had to irresistibly give people faith, and yet he says they reject him. It's absurd. You can't reject what you never had the choice to accept.

"faithdoes not proceed from ourselves, but is the fruit of spiritual regeneration; for the Evangelist affirms that no man can believe, unless he be begotten of God; and therefore faith is a heavenly gift."

"One they had framed for themselves out of a false opinion, when they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? Another arose from a wicked sentiment, that they did not think that Christ was the Son of God, because he came down to men clothed with our flesh. [151] But we are guilty of excessive malignity, if we despise the Lord of glory because on our account.."

So explain to me how we can despise the Lord of our own account when we don't have any free will to do this?

In fact, Calvin claims God directs even our sin.
"all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God.”

But the Bible says otherwise:

"The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate."

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers

If God hates these things, how can any sensible person claims that he directs people to do them?

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Respectful would be when you actually answer what you are asked. Twice you have made false statements.
You have been asked to give direct quotes to support your claim.
I think you made it up, but will wait for your quotes.
Show quotes from a puritan, or even a modern day believer that supports your statement.
No more questions until you show such quotes, or admit you pulled these ideas out of your butt.

My "repeated comments" are scripture found in psalm14,Roman's 3

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SovereignGrace said:

Brother, she won’t answer you. She wouldn’t answer me. She will say the discussion is fruitless, back out of the thread, and then slither back in and demand more answers to her questions, while avoiding answering yours the whole time. Time to move on and away.

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I just gave you an explanation of where my impression came from - that is the answer to your question. Do you want me to paste you staying over and over again?

I then asked very politely if/where my understanding of you is wrong. I'm going five extra miles to be respectful and try to understand you, but when it feels like I'm asking you for bread and receiving stones thrown at me instead.

Eternally Grateful said:

You seem to say this a lot. Maybe again we offer them help. Either way, saying this does not help the situation


Like this? Why did you not call him out also?

we again can say the same for you, I have seen one of you acknowledge a mistake,

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EG,
I say offer help meaning scriptures to point to an answer.
Too often it turns to bickering.
We all get a bit heated sometimes. If I were a moderator I would be able to meditate disputes a bit more.
That poster asked me a direct question.
There was a time I disagreed with these brothers, however we worked through the verses and came to agreement.
It can and does happen.
P4T offered me some slight correction on this thread.you did not notice because I did not call him names, I studied it out to understand the point offered. I am thankful for any brother who corrects me.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

EG,
I say offer help meaning scriptures to point to an answer.
Too often it turns to bickering.
We all get a bit heated sometimes. If I were a moderator I would be able to meditate disputes a bit more.
That poster asked me a direct question.
There was a time I disagreed with these brothers, however we worked through the verses and came to agreement.
It can and does happen.
P4T offered me some slight correction on this thread.you did not notice because I did not call him names, I studied it out to understand the point offered. I am thankful for any brother who corrects me.

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We should be able to be respectful of all persons, regardless of whether or not we agree with them.

That goes for me being respectful of other too.

Renniks said:

I've actually spent quite a bit of time studying the teaching. So you admit that you are embracing a contradiction?

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This is not a contradiction at all.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

This is not a contradiction at all.

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You can't seek God yet you are responsible and punished forever for not seeking God. No contradiction?

Renniks said:

That's easy: John Piper:
"we can say, first, that regeneration is the cause of faith… Having been born of God results in our believing. Our believing is the immediate evidence of God’s begetting.” [1]

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I want others to notice how @Renniks and his errant source leave off a portion of the quote with an ellipsis where the point is proven by Scripture.

Here it all is:

"We can say, first, that regeneration is the cause of faith. That’s plain in 1 John 5:1: “Everyone who believes [that is, has faith] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” Having been born of God results in our believing. Our believing is the immediate evidence of God’s begetting."

The text proves his point, there is nothing unbiblical about the quickening that takes place. Oh, and by the way, the source was heretic Leighton Flowers, Mr. personal achievement salvation himself. Or better yet, God chooses people like we choose the best meats at a deli. God chooses by the quality of the meat. His "choice meats" faux pas. These are two examples of his grace denying false gospel.

Psalm 14 is contrasting those who choose evil with those who are righteous. The one who says there's no God can't be righteous and is called a fool. Nowhere does it teach the inability to follow God and do good.

"Will evildoers never learn-- those who devour my people as men eat bread and who do not call on the LORD?"

Obviously, they can learn if they choose to follow God.

Preacher4Truth said:

I want others to notice how @Renniks and his errant source leave off a portion of the quote with an ellipsis where the point is proven by Scripture in Pipers quote.

Here it all is:

We can say, first, that regeneration is the cause of faith. That’s plain in 1 John 5:1: “Everyone who believes [that is, has faith] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” Having been born of God results in our believing. Our believing is the immediate evidence of God’s begetting.

The text proves his point, there is nothing unbiblical about the quickening that takes place. Oh, and by the way, the source was heretic Leighton Flowers, Mr. personal achievement salvation himself. Or better yet, God chooses people like we choose the best meats at a deli. God chooses by the quality of the meat. These are two examples of his grace denying false gospel.

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How do you get regeneration before belief out of that verse?
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

Whosoever believeth... Belief comes first, then rebirth, then love for God and other Christians.

Renniks said:

You can't seek God yet you are responsible and punished forever for not seeking God. No contradiction?

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Correct....men are fully responsible before God.
The fall has bound man in sin and death.
Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.
The Spirit effectually draws them to Jesus, making them willing where before they resisted.
No contradictions...just biblical salvation effected by the trinity.