John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

Waiting on him · Sep 21, 2020

Christophany said:
here are a few scriptures telling us where faith comes from:

Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 1:14
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

(faith is given out by God along with his grace)

Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

(it is through God's grace that people believe)

Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

hope this helps !!!

Of course it helps, this is why they departed, Those whom walked away had not been gifted this fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is solely an act of God.

Waiting on him · Sep 21, 2020

and the Wind blows where It chooses.

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I am sorry, but those scriptures does not say or effectively say that the election of God of people for salvation was based on having faith in God. Besides, with regards Romans 11:5-6, the context of the passage even is with regards the 'physical' Israel or ethnic nation Israel, the Israelites, the election of grace pertaining to a remnant of the ethnic nation Israel. With regards Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "by grace you have been saved by grace you have been saved", meaning to say that salvation is by God's grace and that this grace of salvation is through faith. Besides, there is nothing in that passage that speaks about election.

Waiting on him said:
So where does faith come from?

What does your question have to do with what I said in the quote?

Tong
R1200

Waiting on him · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Tong2020 said:
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I am sorry, but those scriptures does not say or effectively say that the election of God of people for salvation was based on having faith in God. Besides, with regards Romans 11:5-6, the context of the passage even is with regards the 'physical' Israel or ethnic nation Israel, the Israelites, the election of grace pertaining to a remnant of the ethnic nation Israel. With regards Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "by grace you have been saved by grace you have been saved", meaning to say that salvation is by God's grace and that this grace of salvation is through faith. Besides, there is nothing in that passage that speaks about election.
What does your question have to do with what I said in the quote?

Tong
R1200

It’s only a question, you seem to only answer questions with questions?

refer to post #163 please

Ferris Bueller · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
We don't get chosen to be saved, rather we are chosen for salvation.

I agree. When we believe in Christ we are chosen by God for salvation, for we are chosen through faith just as the Bible says. The whole point is, faith is the condition through which we are chosen, not through the condition of righteous works.

God ordained it from the very beginning long before creation that the church would be chosen through the way of faith in God, not through the merit of righteous works. In his foreknowledge he just happens to know ahead of time who those people are who will have faith.

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Waiting on him said:
It’s only a question, you seem to only answer questions with questions?

If you have read all my posts, you won't say that. I asked because I am looking for a connection to what you quoted from me for which I understand you are responding to.

Anyway, if it was only an isolated question, my answer to your question "So where does faith come from", is:

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Tong
R1201

Ferris Bueller · Sep 21, 2020

Ferris Bueller said:
God ordained it from the very beginning long before creation that the church would be chosen through the way of faith in God, not through the merit of righteous works.

@Tong2020 , this is what the whole matter of election is all about. This is the important point. This way of salvation through the grace of election (through faith) is the way it was always intended to be. Election was never through the merit of righteous works. Never. The plan right from the beginning, even before creation existed was that man would be saved through the election of grace through faith, not through works. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to illustrate how election is by grace, not works.

Waiting on him · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
If you have read all my posts, you won't say that. I asked because I am looking for a connection to what you quoted from me for which I understand you are responding to.

Anyway, if it was only an isolated question, my answer to your question "So where does faith come from", is:

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Tong
R1201

Ok, so the multitude was standing there as God spoke, yet they departed. The scripture you posted says faith comes by hearing. They certainly heard what He said we know this because they reacted by departing, apparently in this isolated occurrence it didn’t come.

Why do you believe this is?

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
We don't get chosen to be saved, rather we are chosen for salvation.

Ferris Bueller said:
I agree. When we believe in Christ we are chosen by God for salvation, for we are chosen through faith just as the Bible says. The whole point is, faith is the condition through which we are chosen, not through the condition of righteous works.

God ordained it from the very beginning long before creation that the church would be chosen through the way of faith in God, not through the merit of righteous works. In his foreknowledge he just happens to know ahead of time who those people are who will have faith.

You say you agree, but you are saying a different thing.

<<<When we believe in Christ we are chosen by God for salvation, for we are chosen through faith just as the Bible says.>>>

I have already explained to you in post #160 that such is not what the Bible says. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say "we get chosen by God to be saved through belief in the truth and by the power of the Spirit", rather it says "God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth".

Consider also this scriptures:

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

<<<The whole point is, faith is the condition through which we are chosen, not through the condition of righteous works.>>

That is not at all the point of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. There even isn't a condition spoken of in there, more so say anything about faith being the condition of election. Please read the passage carefully as well as my post #160. Thanks.

Tong
R1202

bbyrd009 · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
I guess you don't like my statement "And for sure, I will be agreeing to those which are taught by scriptures and disagree to those which do not."

ha well whether i like it or not who cares, but imo it is a hypocritical statement at least, as im sure i could post several Scriptures that you wouldnt like much?

Tong2020 said:
If you will kindly cite scriptures that say or effectively say that the election of God of people for salvation was based on God knowing ahead that they will believe. Then let's see what they actually say. I hope you don't find anything wrong with that.

is your mind already made up? So wadr i dont see the point; predestination is, to me, an intentionally installed boondoggle that religious ppl enjoy mass-debating, and seems to me it is usually for the purpose of testifying of themselves one way or another anyway? I mean what usually comes of debating predestination, if not disagreement, as here?

Tong2020 said:
Tong2020 said:
We don't get chosen to be saved, rather we are chosen for salvation.

i mean really, wth is the diff?

Philip James · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Evidently, you can't point where in that verse does it say or even say in effect that the wedding feast of the Lamb of God happens in breaking bread and eating supper in remembrance of the last supper that Jesus had with His disciples. Well, that apparently settles this issue.

Tong
R1197

You can lead a horse to water...

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water

Peace be with you!

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Waiting on him said:
Ok, so the multitude was standing there as God spoke, yet they departed. The scripture you posted says faith comes by hearing. They certainly heard what He said we know this because they reacted by departing, apparently in this isolated occurrence it didn’t come.

Why do you believe this is?

I am guessing that what you say there is with regards John 6:66. So, yes it is obvious that they heard with their ears. But equally obvious is that they do not understand what they heard. They do not understand what Jesus meant by what He said.

Yes, in effect faith didn't come to them, else they would have believed.

<<<Why do you believe this is?>>>

Please clarify your question. I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what it is you ask there.

Tong
R1203

Waiting on him · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
I am guessing that what you say there is with regards John 6:66. So, yes it is obvious that they heard with their ears. But equally obvious is that they do not understand what they heard. They do not understand what Jesus meant by what He said.

Yes, in effect faith didn't come to them, else they would have believed.

<<<Why do you believe this is?>>>

Please clarify your question. I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what it is you ask there.

Tong
R1203

Well scripture says faith comes by hearing, but in their case this wasn’t true, so apparently this doesn’t mean that faith comes to all that hear.

Truthcampaign.org · Sep 21, 2020

Ferris Bueller said:
I agree. When we believe in Christ we are chosen by God for salvation, for we are chosen through faith just as the Bible says. The whole point is, faith is the condition through which we are chosen, not through the condition of righteous works.

God ordained it from the very beginning long before creation that the church would be chosen through the way of faith in God, not through the merit of righteous works. In his foreknowledge he just happens to know ahead of time who those people are who will have faith.

It is only by the Grace of God that we are saved! That is not earned but a free gift from God. However, the Bible states, you doing evil works can lose that Grace and therefore lose your salvation. So yes, no works can earn that free gift, but it can be lost. God Bless!

Nancy · Sep 21, 2020

Christophany said:
The Cost of Being a disciple of Jesus

When Jesus carried His cross up Golgotha to be crucified, no one was thinking of the cross as symbolic of a burden to carry. To a person in the first-century, the cross meant one thing and one thing only: death by the most painful and humiliating means human beings could develop.

Two thousand years later, Christians view the cross as a cherished symbol of atonement, forgiveness, grace, and love. But in Jesus’ day, the cross represented nothing but torturous death. Because the Romans forced convicted criminals to carry their own crosses to the place of crucifixion, bearing a cross meant carrying their own execution device while facing ridicule along the way to death.

Therefore, “Take up your cross and follow Me” means being willing to die in order to follow Jesus. This is called “dying to self.” It’s a call to absolute surrender. After each time Jesus commanded cross bearing, He said, “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?” (Luke 9:24-25). Although the call is tough, the reward is matchless.

When Jesus began teaching that He was going to die at the hands of the Jewish leaders and their Gentile overlords (Luke 9:22), His popularity sank. Many of the shocked followers rejected Him. Truly, they were not able to put to death their own ideas, plans, and desires, and exchange them for His.

Following Jesus is easy when life runs smoothly; our true commitment to Him is revealed during trials. Jesus assured us that trials will come to His followers (John 16:33). Discipleship demands sacrifice, and Jesus never hid that cost.

In Luke 9:57-62, three people seemed willing to follow Jesus. When Jesus questioned them further, their commitment was half-hearted at best. They failed to count the cost of following Him. None was willing to take up his cross and crucify upon it his own interests.
Therefore, Jesus appeared to dissuade them. How different from the typical Gospel presentation! How many people would respond to an altar call that went, “Come follow Jesus, and you may face the loss of friends, family, reputation, career, and possibly even your life”? The number of false converts would likely decrease! Such a call is what Jesus meant when He said, “Take up your cross and follow Me.”

If you wonder if you are ready to take up your cross, consider these questions:
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing some of your closest friends?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means alienation from your family?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means the loss of your reputation?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing your job?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing your life?

In some places of the world, these consequences are reality. But notice the questions are phrased, “Are you willing?” Following Jesus doesn’t necessarily mean all these things will happen to you, but are you willing to take up your cross? If there comes a point in your life where you are faced with a choice—Jesus or the comforts of this life—which will you choose?

Commitment to Christ means taking up your cross daily, giving up your hopes, dreams, possessions, even your very life if need be for the cause of Christ. Only if you willingly take up your cross may you be called His disciple (Luke 14:27). The reward is worth the price. Jesus followed His call of death to self (“Take up your cross and follow Me”) with the gift of life in Christ: “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it” (Matthew 16:25-26).got ?

hope this helps !!!

Amen, and..do it with a smile as we know His ways are higher and His plans way better than ours. As long as we acknowledge Him in ALL our ways...He surely will go before us and make those paths straight. He proves faithful every single time...

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Ferris Bueller said:
@Tong2020 , this is what the whole matter of election is all about. This is the important point. This way of salvation through the grace of election (through faith) is the way it was always intended to be. Election was never through the merit of righteous works. Never. The plan right from the beginning, even before creation existed was that man would be saved through the election of grace through faith, not through works. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to illustrate how election is by grace, not works.

Between the two of us, nobody is saying that election is through the merit of righteous works. That is a strawman argument.

With regards your contention that election is through faith, I disagree. I have already given an explanation in my other posts with my discussion of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Tong
R1204

Truthcampaign.org · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Who is saying that Jesus renounces what He said regarding the eating of His flesh? And who is saying that in verse 63 the flesh there refers to His flesh? Those are strawman arguments Truthcampaign.

<<<Was his flesh on the cross of no help or benefit?>>

Can you explain your question a bit and give it some context?

<<<“His” resurrected flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul), which gives life.>>>

Please cite scriptures that say or effectively say what you say there.

Tong
R1191

Your interpretation renounces what Jesus said prior to verse 6:63.

My website goes into a bite more detail of what verse 63 means:

Verse 63: “It is the spirit that gives life, while “the” flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

Some say this verse confirms that Jesus was speaking symbolically with regard to the Bread of Life Discourse in John chapter 6. Does this verse confirm that Jesus in fact was speaking symbolically?

What are the words he just spoke? Several times Jesus spoke, eat my flesh (7) and drink my blood (3) to obtain eternal life.

What does “no avail” mean? It means “no help or benefit.”

Did Jesus say “my” flesh is of no avail? No, he said “the” flesh is of no avail.

Is Jesus’ flesh of no avail? No!

The Lord is perfect and sinless. His flesh is holy and pure. His flesh and spirit rose from the dead. Was his flesh on the cross of no help or benefit? Jesus is referring to “our” sinful flesh. The Lord is saying, it is no help or benefit to feed “our” flesh that dies and withers away. “His” resurrected flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul), which gives life.

Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

https://truthcampaign.org/truth-campaign-2/

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Waiting on him said:
Well scripture says faith comes by hearing, but in their case this wasn’t true, so apparently this doesn’t mean that faith comes to all that hear.

Not if one have a different take on what "hear" means in Romans 10:17. It does not refer to the natural understanding or discernment of man, but to spiritual understanding or discernment, and the receiving of it.

Tong
R1205

Ferris Bueller · Sep 21, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Between the two of us, nobody is saying that election is through the merit of righteous works. That is a strawman argument.

Lol, I'm not bringing works up because you or anyone else is making that argument. I brought it up to show you that Paul is contrasting being chosen through faith with being chosen through works. If you're going to understand Paul's argument about election you have to keep it in the context in which he presents it, which is faith vs. works.

It seems the church makes election more about 'who' is elected and 'when' rather than 'how' one is elected, the way Paul presents it. Paul's focus is on how one is chosen, not on the matter of who specifically is chosen and when they are chosen as the church likes to improperly focus the discussion (and as a result misses the intent of the argument and ends up wandering into sundry doctrines). This will probably take more than a few posts to get you to see.

Tong2020 · Sep 21, 2020

Truthcampaign.org said:
It is only by the Grace of God that we are saved! That is not earned but a free gift from God. However, the Bible states, you doing evil works can lose that Grace and therefore lose your salvation. So yes, no works can earn that free gift, but it can be lost. God Bless!

<<<However, the Bible states, you doing evil works can lose that Grace and therefore lose your salvation.>>>

Then perhaps you don't have faith in God who keeps you and is more than able to keep you from being lost? If God had chosen you for salvation, will He not do and accomplish it? Will He save you only to let you do your evil deeds and lose you? If you are saved by grace, will you be lost by your works? Now, if you lose your salvation when you do sin or evil, will God save you again by grace or how? How many times could you lose your salvation that God will no longer save you? A lot of questions more could be raised that argues against that.

Tong
R1206

John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

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