Agreed but on the other hand a person cannot deny He is Lord(YHWH-God) and be saved. One must be able as Paul says in Romans 10:9-13 confess that Jesus is Lord to be saved. They cannot deny He is Lord and be saved.
hope this helps !!!
Do you know the real Jesus ?
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hope this helps !!!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Indeed and the Son of God is a Divine Title of Christ. The Son of in Hebrew as in the son of man has the meaning of being human, of human decent or origin of being a man, a human nature.
The meaning of the Son of God which Jesus was accused of Blasphemy means to have the nature of God, a divine nature. So we have both with Jesus who is the son of man and the Son of God. Its where we get the 2 natures in Christ both human and Divine.
Just knowing Christ was God in flesh bowls me over. I don't know of anyone else's god dying for their sake! The false gods always seem to require so many things from their people, such as Moloch and the sacrifice of babies. Don't know any false gods who actually love their people.
Amen it is one of the greatest things if not the greatest thoughts in this life we can contemplate.Just knowing Christ was God in flesh bowls me over. I don't know of anyone else's god dying for their sake! The false gods always seem to require so many things from their people, such as Moloch and the sacrifice of babies. Don't know any false gods who actually love their people.
It is all about Him from cover to cover, it all points to Him !
Jesus said the OT was about Himself
Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Jesus said the Holy Spirit will bear witness of HIM
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:7-9
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me
John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
hope this helps !!!
Such confession is a totally different thing than being able to pass an academic theology test.
Note: if find most often this “different Jesus “ platform is one that tries to make salvation into man’s ability to pass an academic test, and pushes aside a person’s confession to the Lord.Agreed
I don’t know if that’s your case, but that’s my experience.
Example: I passionately disagree with modulism and find is academically very incorrect. But I readily acknowledge that person’s confession to the Lord and thier salvation.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does. I've read these passages many times, but never quite put it together with what I've experienced! I appreciate it! Paul said that nobody, speaking by the Holy Spirit, can say certain Christian things. I misunderstood that. He meant that nobody speaking by the Holy Spirit can say certain things and *mean it*--not that false spirits cannot say the *same things* that Pentecostals say.
Really, how difficult is it for false spirits to use Christian lingo and to exhibit spiritual power in their deceptions? They are supernatural beings, and display spiritual power just as any charismatic human might do! Thanks again--didn't quite see these passages with this in mind.
By the way, God seems to have been speaking to my heart, suggesting to me that the Holy Spirit is not the "way, truth, and life"--that Jesus is! In other words, if we're to have the right Spirit and the right power we need to follow the truth as it is seen in Jesus, and not just a display of spiritual power with Christian-like claims!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does. I've read these passages many times, but never quite put it together with what I've experienced! I appreciate it! Paul said that nobody, speaking by the Holy Spirit, can say certain Christian things. I misunderstood that. He meant that nobody speaking by the Holy Spirit can say certain things and *mean it*--not that false spirits cannot say the *same things* that Pentecostals say.
Really, how difficult is it for false spirits to use Christian lingo and to exhibit spiritual power in their deceptions? They are supernatural beings, and display spiritual power just as any charismatic human might do! Thanks again--didn't quite see these passages with this in mind.
By the way, God seems to have been speaking to my heart, suggesting to me that the Holy Spirit is not the "way, truth, and life"--that Jesus is! In other words, if we're to have the right Spirit and the right power we need to follow the truth as it is seen in Jesus, and not just a display of spiritual power with Christian-like claims!
Come to think of it, Paul cast a demon out of a young lady who was speaking the truth, that Paul was a man of God. False spirits can speak true things and still have, as a motive, misleading people. As soon as people latch onto their display of power they can lead them astray. All they have to do is punch the right buttons and use the right "Christian" lingo, and presto--people are led down a rosy path to their destruction.
I'm not following "spirits" anymore. Rather, I'm following Jesus. Then I can rely on the right spiritual source of power!
@Christophany
What the OP speaks about is delusion, is it not? So then is it perhaps a love for the Truth that is needed?
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11
Must we know or see all of the Truth clearly in order to love it? Jesus tells us that He is the Truth, but how well do we know Him? What is it that Apostle Paul writes to us?
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
Have we moved from seeing "through a glass, darkly" to "face to face" already... or are we a work in progress?
What does Jesus, the Truth, say about loving Him, the Truth?
"So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." John 21:15-17
So then if we are feeding them is that not evidence that we love Him, that we love Truth. All of our studied and believed doctrines are worth what... if we are not feeding His lambs and His sheep!
Who are they? Perhaps the ones who hear His voice and follow Him? But that is the sheep, is it not? Who or what or where are the lambs, the little sheep, the newborn babes?
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52
And us?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well the Jesus of the bible who died and rose again is the right one. All who claim to be Him returned are liars! We know how Jesus returns and it won't be as a man but as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and there won't be any mistaking Him!
What should we use? the bible of course! Anyone now who claims to be the Messiah- is not.
Can belief in a false Jesus save one? Never. You have to trust in teh death and resurrection of the one told us in Scripture n order to be saved. Placing your faith in the wrong place avails nothing
Again, it’s not an academic understanding that saves (or unsaves) anyone. Vast of the disagreements one this subject are academic ones, involving interpretation of certain passages. Not about the love of Christ or scripture.
However, if you have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible, or a different spirit, or a different gospel, beware lest you have been deceived by the serpent's subtilty (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
that is what makes it so deceptive as they mix the truth with lies.
A modulist (for example) did not clone Jesus through there ignorance. No, there’s only on Son of God. And the modulist’s poor academic understanding doesn’t mean thier faith or love of Him is somehow invalidated. No. They are love the same, even (like little children) they have much to learn academically.
How to test the spirits !
The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication they are of the spirit of antichrist.
If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God, the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7 which is translated as coming meaning the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus still remains in the flesh. It means a continuous abiding in the flesh as these Greek Scholars will attest below.
Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)
Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)
Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)
Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)
Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)
Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)
Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.
Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless of Christ as "still being manifested."
Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh Ieesoun Christon erchomenon en sarki. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of erchomai treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have eleeluthota (perfect active participle) in this same construction with homologeoo, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.
The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication they are of the spirit of antichrist.
If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God, the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7 which is translated as coming meaning the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus still remains in the flesh. It means a continuous abiding in the flesh as these Greek Scholars will attest below.
Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)
Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)
Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)
Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)
Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)
Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)
Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.
Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless of Christ as "still being manifested."
Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh Ieesoun Christon erchomenon en sarki. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of erchomai treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have eleeluthota (perfect active participle) in this same construction with homologeoo, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.
Hi Nancy, but that notion of what you said about God dying for the sake of His creation (humans), must strike you as odd?Just knowing Christ was God in flesh bowls me over. I don't know of anyone else's god dying for their sake! The false gods always seem to require so many things from their people, such as Moloch and the sacrifice of babies. Don't know any false gods who actually love their people.
What merit, significance, or awe, as you implied, could such an act elicit upon anyone when fundamentally, no veritable sacrifice was actually made?
If God cannot die, at least not for perpetuity without having the universe collapse, then what threat did death impose upon him in order to consider His act as sacrificial? Or, in other words, what sacrifice was there in Him temporarily feigning death? If I had the ability to regenerate an arm every time that it got severed, it is no sacrifice for me to offer my arm to anyone else, for any reason, for any amount of times.
I stress this, because you compared God's love with that of the other gods of the pagan religions, by referring to the 'sacrifice' that God made, that they were either unable, or unwilling to make. I agree that there are countless reasons to exalt and revere God over and above any other deity that man could possibly concoct in his mind, as these are nothing but demons (1 Corinthians 10:20). But, using the argument that 'God so loved His people that He died for them' may do more harm than good in attempting to compel others to the real Faith, or in verifying if we 'know the real Jesus'?
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I should think younger Christians are the ones we should be "feeding" the spiritual truth to. That's what I've always done. We have a job to do, and the soldiers need to be equipped. I hate the distractions about who hears from God and who doesn't. As you say, we don't see all too clearly, but we certainly know God by His character. We can choose to love that!
That's it Cristophany, the titles 'Son of Man' and 'Son of God', used for the same being denotes two natures, two incompatible natures that is, divine and human, to support your god-man theory? What's a god-man Christophany, how can a being be both immortal and mortal at the same time? How can one be transcendent and omnipresent, and yet secular and finite at the same time? Do you think that it's competent and responsible to make such absurd conclusions, without offering volumes of proof-text? Or, are you that indoctrinated that you don't even recognize the implausibility of your claim?Indeed and the Son of God is a Divine Title of Christ. The Son of in Hebrew as in the son of man has the meaning of being human, of human decent or origin of being a man, a human nature.
The meaning of the Son of God which Jesus was accused of Blasphemy means to have the nature of God, a divine nature. So we have both with Jesus who is the son of man and the Son of God. Its where we get the 2 natures in Christ both human and Divine.
Please tell me that you felt silly after you posted this?
We reject modalism; but the fact that mormons, in believing in three separate Gods, count modalism as being contrary to their doctrine ought to indicate to us that the real version of the Trinity is something between modalism and the mormon concept of God in three separate persons.
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