Is The Soul Immortal?

Hello Pegg

You asked........

“I just have one question. What would be the point in bringing everyone back from the dead, only to rouse on them and inflict death on them again? God is not that spiteful is he?”

Click to expand...

No, God is not spiteful, He is “just”!

The reason every lost soul will be resurrected, is for the Great white throne judgement....
Revelation 20:11-15
V.11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
V.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
V.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
V.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
V.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

When lost people die, they go to hell, but they still have not had a trial.
Therefore, before casting them into the lake of fire, God gives them a fair trail and shows them why they will be lost forever.

Pegg said:

I just have one question. What would be the point in bringing everyone back from the dead, only to rouse on them and inflict death on them again? God is not that spiteful is he?

Besides that, we are told that death is the end of sin. "The wages sin pays is death" said Paul at Romans 6:23 and at Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"

If its true that we are acquitted from our sin when we die, how is it possible that God will judge us based on the sin we had already died for?

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That is a great question Pegg and I will try to explain
it if I can. The problem is man has taught for many
centuries that God is vindicative so it's not hard to
believe God can do something like raise up sinners
just to humiliate them for a time. But what does the
scriptures say?

The covenant with Noah is the first in the Bible, and
it establishes the scope of God's plan for the whole
earth. It is the covenant of the Restoration of All Things.
Thus, when we finally come to the end, John sees a
great vision of this reconciliation in Revelation 5. In
verses 8-12 he sees the overcomers (those who "reign
upon the earth") in agreement with God, saying in
verse 12,

12 "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive
power and riches and wisdom and might and
honor and glory and blessing."

But then John sees a greater company of people in
verses 13 and 14,

13 "And every thing which is in heaven and on the
earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all
things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on
the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and
honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.'
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, 'Amen.'
And the elders fell down and worshipped."

This is also what Paul meant in Phil. 2:10 and 11 when
he said that every knee would bow and every tongue
confess "to the glory of God the Father." There is no
glory in forcing everyone to confess the truth. The glory
is in the fact that all of creation will come into
AGREEMENT with a resounding "AMEN!" The divine
plan is not completed until the four beasts say AMEN
to the glory of God.

All of the other covenants after Noah build upon this first
covenant and add details to the divine plan. The covenant
with Abraham establishes the people THROUGH WHOM
this divine plan will be established. That is, the seed of
Abraham, first physical and then spiritual, are the
ambassadors of Christ with the word of reconciliation to
the rest of the world. Later, the covenant with Moses
establishes the standard of righteousness to which all
shall attain. The covenant with David establishes the
throne--that is, who will RULE this Kingdom.

Finally, the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of
Christ on the cross to make all of the previous covenants
possible and to redeem all of creation. Without the cross,
all of the previous covenants would fail. But Col. 1:16-20
says,

16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the
heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether
thrones or dominions--all things have been created
by Him and for Him. . . .
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;
through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things
in heaven."

The context of this great reconciliation of "all things" tells
us that it means ALL THAT WAS CREATED, whether in
heaven or in earth. It was all created FOR HIM, and
because He redeemed all that was lost in Adam, all things
will indeed be given to Him in the end. That is the
astounding plan of God for the earth. Whether our limited
minds are able to comprehend the scope of such a plan
is of no consequence. It will happen whether or not any
man on earth believes it, for it is written.

Logabe

Hello Logabe

You used......
Colossians 1:20
“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.”

To say.......

“The context of this great reconciliation of "all things" tells
us that it means ALL THAT WAS CREATED, whether in
heaven or in earth. It was all created FOR HIM, and
because He redeemed all that was lost in Adam, all things
will indeed be given to Him in the end. That is the
astounding plan of God for the earth. Whether our limited
minds are able to comprehend the scope of such a plan
is of no consequence. It will happen whether or not any
man on earth believes it, for it is written.”

Click to expand...

This false teaching, is called “universalism”(everybody will be saved).
But the Bible does not teach this.

Sin, will destroy our lives.....
Ezekiel 18:20
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

Therefore God freely offers Jesus’ blood to everyone, to take care of our sin problem.

But most people will reject God’s free offer......
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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Now, back to the subject of this thread:
The Biblical definition of “Spiritual death”, is an “eternal death, in the lake of fire”.

Therefore when the Bible says “The soul that sinneth, it shall die”, this isn’t the end of a person’s existence, it is just a description of the kind of existence they will have.
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This may not sound pleasant to us, but it is “just” and Biblical.

Pegg said:

I just have one question. What would be the point in bringing everyone back from the dead, only to rouse on them and inflict death on them again? God is not that spiteful is he?

Besides that, we are told that death is the end of sin. "The wages sin pays is death" said Paul at Romans 6:23 and at Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"

If its true that we are acquitted from our sin when we die, how is it possible that God will judge us based on the sin we had already died for?

Click to expand...

Ro 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

There is no more condemnation or judgment unto death for sin. Had the Messiah been given His rightful place on the throne, judgement of the nations would have issued forth then and there, with Jerusalem as the Seat of Government, with the twelve tribes ruling over the nations. This was out and out rejected by Israel. They were locked up in blindness (Acts 28:26) by God, and salvation without their oversight and administration began to unfold through Paul's gospel. The Cross of Christ was the end for Israel and the beginning for us. We see Him in it, they see nothing. We believe on Him whose death justifies the ungodly. They cannot believe. Thus is the mercy of God revealed.

The resurrection of the great and small is for deeds done by those who did not believe on Him. Some are criminals, some are innocents. The stripes given will be commensurate. The Second death is meant to destroy all that will not be subject to God. All flesh will be destroyed. There is no time limit given to the Lake of Fire. It, like all the eons of Scripture, has a definite end. There is no punishment in death, it takes place before the Second Death.

1C 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Second death is merciful, quick, painless, and instant. Until the glory of the eons has taken place, and all things have been subdued, these condemned ones will repose in death as much as they did the first time. Death is a release, not a punishment. It is oblivion where there is no knowledge of God, no praise, no remembrance, it is a return to whence we were before coming into existence. Such is the testimony of Scripture.

Co-death and co-crucifixion absolves us of the death to come, as sinners. Without the belief in the Sacrifice to avail, the unbeliever must be judged for his or her deeds, great or small, no matter what good or evil done in their bodies. Without the consciousness of the love of God poured out on us through Jesus Christ, no soul is able to be commended or justified in the sight of God the Father, Who has given Him a name above all names.
fivesense

Pegg said:

I just have one question. What would be the point in bringing everyone back from the dead, only to rouse on them and inflict death on them again? God is not that spiteful is he?

Besides that, we are told that death is the end of sin. "The wages sin pays is death" said Paul at Romans 6:23 and at Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"

If its true that we are acquitted from our sin when we die, how is it possible that God will judge us based on the sin we had already died for?

Click to expand...

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We die because of Adam's transgression, not our own, it is inherited. It is unfair, so it has been rectified by the One Who is responsible for everything, God.
Our first death does not absolve us from our sins, our co-crucifixion with Christ does, which the whole of that passage contains in detail.
fivesense

Pegg said:

I just have one question. What would be the point in bringing everyone back from the dead, only to rouse on them and inflict death on them again? God is not that spiteful is he?

Besides that, we are told that death is the end of sin. "The wages sin pays is death" said Paul at Romans 6:23 and at Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"

If its true that we are acquitted from our sin when we die, how is it possible that God will judge us based on the sin we had already died for?

Click to expand...

Pegg reading the full context of the passage it becomes aparent that Paul is speaking of the new life threw Christ. Not a physical death but the spiritul death.

[sup]Roman 6:6[/sup] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [sup]7[/sup] For he who has died has been freed from sin. [sup]8[/sup] Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [sup]9[/sup] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [sup]10[/sup] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [sup]11[/sup] Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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To further answer your question there are 2 deaths spoken about in Rev.

[sup]Rev 20:5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [sup]6[/sup] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

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[sup]Rev 20:14[/sup] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [sup]15[/sup] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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As the tent or flesh of man dies it is just that the body is dead, but the soul is not. So from a biblical point and in Gods view you "your essence" is not dead.
Thus the need to res-erect all. The second death is final.

Matt 10: [sup]27[/sup] “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. [sup]28[/sup] And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Pegg be careful of what you believe, walk slowly and don't be afraid to question the things that dont make sense. God is not the author of confusion.
I agree with RND on this topic that you die. No purgatory, no barbecue pit in heaven that contains the souls of the lost ect ect.

In Gen chapter 2 we read that God said in the day you eat of it you will surly die. Until someone can interpret this verse to mean something other than death "complete" death in the eyes of God the rest of scripture must agree with this verse. You will also find that there are three words that are used to describe what know as hell in the English. gehenna, hades, and sheole. For example the description that was used from Isaiah 66 is describing the flesh, looking on the corpses. Gehenna is the dump of the city literally, the place that corpses of those that were undeserving were cast outside the city. With that in mind the verse makes sense. As Israel is coming into the city of God they pass the bodies of those that transgressed.

Isa 66:[sup]22
[/sup] “ For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
[sup]23[/sup] And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
[sup]24[/sup] “ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Click to expand...

Last point is, you will encounter men that change the meaning of death. They may say that death is separation from God, so you end up separated from God in an eternal barbecue. Beware of those that use the same vocabulary but have a personal definition that is theirs alone.


death
   /dɛθ/ Show Spelled[deth]
–noun 1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.

If you suffer forever you are not dead, simple as that.

bud02 said:

Pegg reading the full context of the passage it becomes aparent that Paul is speaking of the new life threw Christ. Not a physical death but the spiritul death.



To further answer your question there are 2 deaths spoken about in Rev.




As the tent or flesh of man dies it is just that the body is dead, but the soul is not. So from a biblical point and in Gods view you "your essence" is not dead.

Click to expand...

That is the Greek view that a person is really an incarnated soul, rather than the Hebrew view of a person being a spiritual and physical totality. When the body dies, it is the 'soul' that is deprived of life when the breath goes back to God (eccles 12:7). At physical death, the soul (nephesh) dies. Check out these verses: Numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30 which clearly state the 'nephesh' dies.

It is a question of definition, but the philisophical argument is something of a person must survive death in the interim period and the view the Hebrews held was while in the grave and the body decomposed to dust, they became 'rephaim' which is a kind of twilight existence where death is not extinction, but has been described as 'the weakest form of life' by one theologian.

Your quote about Matt 10:28 is often used to 'prove' soul immortality, but if you go back to the Hebrew root word, the verse must be viewed in context with that understanding meaning that a full existence is promised to the disciples who lose their life for Christ's sake.

Thus the need to res-erect all. The second death is final.

Matt 10: [sup]27[/sup] “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. [sup]28[/sup] And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Pegg be careful of what you believe, walk slowly and don't be afraid to question the things that dont make sense. God is not the author of confusion.
I agree with RND on this topic that you die. No purgatory, no barbecue pit in heaven that contains the souls of the lost ect ect.

In Gen chapter 2 we read that God said in the day you eat of it you will surly die. Until someone can interpret this verse to mean something other than death "complete" death in the eyes of God the rest of scripture must agree with this verse. You will also find that there are three words that are used to describe what know as hell in the English. gehenna, hades, and sheole. For example the description that was used from Isaiah 66 is describing the flesh, looking on the corpses. Gehenna is the dump of the city literally, the place that corpses of those that were undeserving were cast outside the city. With that in mind the verse makes sense. As Israel is coming into the city of God they pass the bodies of those that transgressed.


Last point is, you will encounter men that change the meaning of death. They may say that death is separation from God, so you end up separated from God in an eternal barbecue. Beware of those that use the same vocabulary but have a personal definition that is theirs alone.


death
   /dɛθ/ Show Spelled[deth]
–noun 1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.

If you suffer forever you are not dead, simple as that.

Click to expand...

[sup]“[/sup]And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen 2:7)

If Adam became a living soul after God blew into his nostrils what was he before that – a dead soul.

Adam sinned, the penalty was death. “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4) Are we to contradict that statement.

Jesus resurrected Lazarus and associated his death like condition to a sleep

“These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep” (John 11:11) “but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten”. Ecc 9:5

If the individuals soul were immortal and they were righteous wouldn’t they be alive and having their reward, yet “neither have they any more a reward”.

Imagine the look Lazarus would have given Jesus after he was resurrected, ‘why did you bring me back here under the yoke of the Romans and our hypocritical religious leaders (And I say that not to be flippant, but with the greatest respect) why my soul was in paradise’.

It appears Lazarus was in a death like state, and Jesus resurrected him as a demonstration of what he would do on the last day (his thousand year reign). What did “Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day”.

The resurrection is for the last day, in-between humans who do not have an immortal soul are in a death sleeping waiting that time as was Lazarus.

The fact is, every person that is ever born, will live forever, somewhere.
(If you trust Christ as your savior, you will live forever in heaven
But if you reject Jesus Christ, you will live forever in the lake of fire.
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Now this is a fact; But people don’t want to think about the possibility of roasting in the lack of fire forever, so they come up with foolish ideas as this.
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The entire argument against this, on this thread hangs on one word: “die” (Spiritual death)........
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin [is] death;
but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

The Bible couldn’t make it more clear, that “Spiritual death”, is a continual thing:
(eternal death).
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The choice God gives to mankind, isn’t.......
(1) Trust my Son Jesus(who went to the cross to die for you), as your Savior:
(2) or, spit in My face, and reject My Son and live your life the way you want to:
(Then simply die and it’s all over.)

As much as most people wish things were this way, it’s not.

bigape said:

The fact is, every person that is ever born, will live forever, somewhere.
(If you trust Christ as your savior, you will live forever in heaven
But if you reject Jesus Christ, you will live forever in the lake of fire.
--------------------
Now this is a fact; But people don’t want to think about the possibility of roasting in the lack of fire forever, so they come up with foolish ideas as this.
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The entire argument against this, on this thread hangs on one word: “die” (Spiritual death)........
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin [is] death;
but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

The Bible couldn’t make it more clear, that “Spiritual death”, is a continual thing:
(eternal death).
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The choice God gives to mankind, isn’t.......
(1) Trust my Son Jesus(who went to the cross to die for you), as your Savior:
(2) or, spit in My face, and reject My Son and live your life the way you want to:
(Then simply die and it’s all over.)

As much as most people wish things were this way, it’s not.

Click to expand...

The lake of fire is symbolic; the very idea that a God of love would burn people in hell is outrageous.

People didn’t ask to be born, they just came into existence. Think about it, a women, a mother of four children, a dedicated wife who works tirelessly for her family and the community. She’s known for her generously, her patients, her kindness and charitable works. Her only floor is she doesn’t recognize Christ.

Now for her sins of living three score and ten is she going to burn in hell for all eternity – the very notion is an absurdity. Seventy years of joy and an eternity of hell, fire and brimstone to follow.

It's like steeling a loaf of bread because you’re hungry and being sent to a penal colony in Ozz for the rest of your life, no justice, just hell.

We are all God’s children; we would not place our children’s hand in a burning fire if they were misbehaving would we, so why do you assume a God of love would punish his children in burring hell forever. Personally I will not worship a God who did such a thing, and I say that with confidence in the knowledge there is no hell in the literal sense.

In fact I'm grateful I’m not caught up in this hell fire nonsense. What did Jesus say, “you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” yes free from superstitious babble.

I have to go with Bigape on this one.
RND, one specious web site that provides no information on who is putting it forth is hardly an argument.

And arguing that explaining eternal damnation to someone who is lost is more of a detriment to getting people to accept Jesus than saying their disobedience will simply result in "burining into nothingness" if they die in their sin is rather silly if you stop and think for a moment.

Why would someone take Jesus seriously if the worst thing that could happen if they don't is that they no longer exist after they die. Atheists already believe that so what would be the problem with disobeying Jesus?

One thing that fascinates me about this site is the absolute certainty that some people have that their opinion on a Christian/Biblical topic, while completely different from the vast, vast, vast majority of Christians, including some of the most holy and learned lifelong followers of Jesus, is absolutely correct. No question about it.


My favorite is the people who say that God would never put his loved ones through what amounts to torture even though this scripture shows they are in torment.
Yet, according to them that means this person will only be in this state until the final judgement, but they then say that after the final judgement they are burned into nothingness.

Luke 16:24
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." - KLV

What this means is that Jesus would be okay with torture lasting hundreds or thousands of years but not eternally. Go figure.

Hi Simpleman

Your statement.....

“The lake of fire is symbolic; the very idea that a God of love would burn people in hell is outrageous.”

Click to expand...

.....simply demonstrates the fact, that God is so much above us, that we can’t hope to begin to understand His decisions.
Calling the lake of fire symbolic, simply because you can’t understand how a loving God could send someone there, is a mistake.
We should not judge the validity of God’s Word based upon our sensibilities.

None of us, fully understand what “love” is or what “true justice” is, because our mind’s have been tainted by sin.

Here is an example..........
Psalms 58:10-11
V.10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance:
he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
V.11 So that a man shall say, Verily [there is] a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

God is PERFECTLY HOLY, and is incapable of making a mistake.
While we on the other hand, are dirty rotten sinners and don’t know which end is up.

All the we can do, is study God’s Word, to find out what REAL LOVE is, and what REAL JUSTICE is and accept it as a fact.
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Your statement.......

“People didn’t ask to be born, they just came into existence.”

Click to expand...

.......is an interesting one.
I did not ask to be born, but boy am I glad I was.

Another fact of life, is that every human being, that has ever been born, was & is given the opportunity come to the LORD.
In the Old Testament, is was by becoming a Jew and in the New Testament it is by trusting Christ as your Savior.

Because God is PERFECTLY righteous and Holy, He makes sure that NOONE will go to the lake of fire, without having rejected His free gift of salvation.

You are right, non of us asked to be born, but life is a wonderful gift, because it gives us the opportunity to spend an eternity with God in heaven.
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You continue with a common story..........

“Think about it, a women, a mother of four children, a dedicated wife who works tirelessly for her family and the community. She’s known for her generously, her patients, her kindness and charitable works. Her only floor is she doesn’t recognize Christ.
Now for her sins of living three score and ten is she going to burn in hell for all eternity – the very notion is an absurdity. Seventy years of joy and an eternity of hell, fire and brimstone to follow.”

Click to expand...

This story can be repeated a million times.
But.....every time these people(at sometime in her life), are given the knowledge of “a Creator”: A God in heaven, that created this world and put them in it.

At this point, she is faced with the same decision that I was faced with:
Do I seek out this Creator and find out what life is all about;
Or do I just blow it off and live for the moment?

Every individual that repeatedly rejects this “light” that God gives them, of His existence, will sink into more Spiritual darkness, making it even more difficult for them to come to this light, the next time...........
Romans 1:19-32
V.19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
V.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
V.21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
V.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
V.23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
V.24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
V.25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
V.26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
V.27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
V.28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
V.29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
V.30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
V.31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
V.32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Life is wonderful, because God gives every one of us an opportunity to come to Him.
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Next you reveal part of your problem........

“We are all God’s children; we would not place our children’s hand in a burning fire if they were misbehaving would we, so why do you assume a God of love would punish his children in burring hell forever.”

Click to expand...

Here you disregard something called “The great white throne judgement”......
Revelation 20:11
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

This is a throne of “judgement” & “justice”; (Each individual being Judged by their life.)

Therefore, what you fail to realize is that a Holy God will NEVER punish anyone, more than they deserve; And if you had studied the Bible, you would have realized this.......
Luke 12:46-48
V.46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
V.47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
V.48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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Now for your final statement..........

“Personally I will not worship a God who did such a thing, and I say that with confidence in the knowledge there is no hell in the literal sense.
In fact I'm grateful I’m not caught up in this hell fire nonsense. What did Jesus say, “you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” yes free from superstitious babble.”

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Well don’t worry, you are probably not worshiping Him.

Another fact of life, is that every human being, that has ever been born, was & is given the opportunity come to the LORD.
In the Old Testament, is was by becoming a Jew and in the New Testament it is by trusting Christ as your Savior.

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.

There are tribes of people who have never heard the Good News, both pre and post testament. If you lived in Asia before, during or after Christ you would never had heard of Jesus. Those who never heard the Good News will have that opportunity in the resurrection during that thousand year reign; there all will come to know Christ. Those who reject him in that time will die and never exist again, they die a second death. An everlasting death of none existence.

bigape said:

Well don’t worry, you are probably not worshiping Him.

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I’m I worshiping God, its not for you to play judge, I will leave that to the creator, but one thing I know, I won’t be burning in hell, neither will anybody else.


“And they have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31)

God found this practise repugnant, it never came into his heart. Note the idea of burning people was repulsive to God  back in Jeremiah’s time, why would God burn people in a lake of fire if it never came into his heart?

Therefore, what you fail to realize is that a Holy God will NEVER punish anyone, more than they deserve; And if you had studied the Bible, you would have realized this......

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More than they deserve, so seventy years of life on earth equals all eternity in hell, Yerrrr now that’s what I call justice, the punishment really fits the crime.

Titus 2:11
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

Through natural revelation, every human being is given an opportunity to get saved......

Psalms 19:1
“The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.”

Psalms 97:6
“The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

Acts 14:17
“Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

Romans 1:20
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

Foreigner said:

Luke 16:24
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." - KLV

What this means is that Jesus would be okay with torture lasting hundreds or thousands of years but not eternally. Go figure.

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"Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool [his] tongue". I don’t think we can take one part literally THE BURNING and then jump into hyperbole.

How is hell (Hades) thrown in the lake of fire? Can hell be thrown into hell?

“The lake of fire is symbolic; the very idea that a God of love would burn people in hell is outrageous.” - Simpleman

-- Another example of someone on this board claiming something that 98% of true Christians know to be facts as false.
Bonus: Nothing provided to support this position meaning it is simply opinion.





“Think about it, a women, a mother of four children, a dedicated wife who works tirelessly for her family and the community. She’s known for her generously, her patients, her kindness and charitable works. Her only floor is she doesn’t recognize Christ.
Now for her sins of living three score and ten is she going to burn in hell for all eternity – the very notion is an absurdity. Seventy years of joy and an eternity of hell, fire and brimstone to follow.” - Simpleman

-- Yet another example of deciding that the scripture is wrong because the person 'couldn't see God doing something like that.' Amazing.

Jesus said to preach the Gospel to all ends of the earth so that this wouldn't have to happen. Why would He give this directive if there is no upside for knowing Jesus and no downside for not knowing him?

Why would He feel that His brutal murder for the atonement of all sins needed to be done if there is no "bad thing" waiting at the end for people who don't turn from sin and follow Him?

Obviously He knows that there is a price to pay for sin or he wouldn't have allowed Himself to be slaughtered to pay the price for that sin.
What you seem to be saying is that He paid the price but doesn't feel anyone needs to turn from sin because there will be no punishment if they don't.
Apparently the Bible is wrong in your eyes.





"I’m I worshiping God, its not for you to play judge, I will leave that to the creator, but one thing I know, I won’t be burning in hell, neither will anybody else." - Simpleman

-- So what you are saying is either A.) 98% of Christians are reading the Scriptures wrong (my favorite, by the way) or B.) The Scriptures themselves are wrong.

Simpleman said:

"Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool [his] tongue". I don’t think we can take one part literally THE BURNING and then jump into hyperbole.

How is hell (Hades) thrown in the lake of fire? Can hell be thrown into hell?

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-- I actually laughed outloud when I read this. Thanks.

Foreigner said:

So what you are saying is either A.( 98% of Christians are reading the Scriptures wrong (my favorite, by the way) or B.) The Scriptures themselves are wrong.

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What I’m saying is a God of love would not brutally burn people in hell fire, and if 98% believe that more fool them for being misled by this satanic teaching. Most of the scientific community believe in evolution, based on the same argument are you suggesting they are correct that we descended from ape man

"Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool [his] tongue". I don’t think we can take one part literally THE BURNING and then jump into hyperbole.

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Do you honestly believe by dipping his finger in water it would have quenched the individual’s thirst if he were burring in agony, it would have proved ineffectual.

The illustration is simple. The rich man represents the religious leaders, Lazarus represent the common people who accepted Christ. Jesus had the table turned over on those religious leaders. Its was no more than a teaching aid. Why so many are preoccupy with punishment is beyond all reason. The dead are dead – read Ecc 9:5 or are you just going to ignore that one.

Simpleman said:

What I’m saying is a God of love would not brutally burn people in hell fire, and if 98% believe that more fool them for being misled by this satanic teaching. Most of the scientific community believe in evolution, based on the same argument are you suggesting they are correct that we descended from ape man

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-- Equating the scriptural findings of people who have studied scripture their whole lives and sought God with their whole heart to the "scientific community" and evolution truly shows you are desperate.
I guess I am not surprised to see that you aren't going to let scripture or the findings of those much more learned and qualified than you or I to get in the way of your incorrect opinion.
Since your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused by facts I say enjoy yourself.

Simpleman said:

Do you honestly believe by dipping his finger in water it would have quenched the individual’s thirst if he were burring in agony, it would have proved ineffectual.

The illustration is simple. The rich man represents the religious leaders, Lazarus represent the common people who accepted Christ. Jesus had the table turned over on those religious leaders. Its was no more than a teaching aid. Why so many are preoccupy with punishment is beyond all reason. The dead are dead – read Ecc 9:5 or are you just going to ignore that one.

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-- I am afraid you missed the point of it entirely.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." - Luke 16:23-24

Directly contradicts your "the dead are dead" opinion. You do realize what period of time is being discussed here and what has not yet transpired.....right?

As far as Ecc 9:5 goes it appears you are even unaware of which realm they are speaking of compared to the one you are speaking of? Apparently not.

Simpleman said:

The lake of fire is symbolic; the very idea that a God of love would burn people in hell is outrageous.
People didn’t ask to be born, they just came into existence. Think about it, a women, a mother of four children, a dedicated wife who works tirelessly for her family and the community. She’s known for her generously, her patients, her kindness and charitable works. Her only floor is she doesn’t recognize Christ.
Now for her sins of living three score and ten is she going to burn in hell for all eternity – the very notion is an absurdity. Seventy years of joy and an eternity of hell, fire and brimstone to follow.
It's like steeling a loaf of bread because you’re hungry and being sent to a penal colony in Ozz for the rest of your life, no justice, just hell.
We are all God’s children; we would not place our children’s hand in a burning fire if they were misbehaving would we, so why do you assume a God of love would punish his children in burring hell forever. Personally I will not worship a God who did such a thing, and I say that with confidence in the knowledge there is no hell in the literal sense.
In fact I'm grateful I’m not caught up in this hell fire nonsense. What did Jesus say, “you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” yes free from superstitious babble.

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Simpleman, I am enjoying your lead in the truth of God. You lean heavily upon what God has revealed and you couple it with your right understanding of the nature of your Father. His love has reached a deep place in your heart, so that you are unable to embrace the myth of endless torment as a means of God's justice. You are very privileged indeed. Though is seems like a personal observation, and an arguable point to some who are of the faith, the absense of such a judgment from the all-merciful One in the Scriptures should eliminate any notion of its existence. But the versions with their mistranslations, and orthodoxy with its failed reasonings, perpetuate this falsehood, and few are able to receive light as you have. It is interesting that even the natural mind is repelled by such a horror and reject it out of hand as not even something the worst of human beings would put their enemies through.

I will ask you one thing, are you certain the the second death is not truly an experience of death, just as was the first? Or, that fire is not an element that God would use to destroy quickly and mercifully, and in an instant, those who were disqualified from life for the eons with Christ through their ignorance or unbelief? I ask that you consider this, that the second death is indeed a death as was the first, and the Lake of Fire is most definitely a real place of destruction for those who are appointed to it. As to its length of time, the word of God says for the eons of the eons, and all who understand that all God's eons have a definite ending, and when all shall be made alive in Christ, 1C 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

fivesense

bigape said:

Hello Logabe

You used......
Colossians 1:20
“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.”

To say.......

This false teaching, is called “universalism”(everybody will be saved).

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But the Bible does not teach this.

Sin, will destroy our lives.....
Ezekiel 18:20
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

Therefore God freely offers Jesus’ blood to everyone, to take care of our sin problem.

But most people will reject God’s free offer......
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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Now, back to the subject of this thread:
The Biblical definition of “Spiritual death”, is an “eternal death, in the lake of fire”.

Therefore when the Bible says “The soul that sinneth, it shall die”, this isn’t the end of a person’s existence, it is just a description of the kind of existence they will have.
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This may not sound pleasant to us, but it is “just” and Biblical.

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Bigape...you're correct...I believe Universalist are wrong but,
I do believe God will eventually save mankind. Let me try to
explain. In Isaiah 45:23-25, which says,

23 I have sworn by Myself [God's vow], the Word has
gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will
not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every
tongue will swear allegiance.
24 They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are
righteousness and strength.' Men will come to
Him, and all who were angry at Him shall be put
to shame.
25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel will be
justified, and will glory."

Here God swears that every knee will bow and every
tongue swear allegiance to Him. This, of course, will
occur at the Great White Throne Judgment, when there
will be no more unbelievers. The prophet then speaks
to the people in his day, saying in verse 25, "in the Lord
all the offspring of Israel will be justified."

What! These are the same Israelites who were such
unbelievers that God sent the whole nation into exile
into Assyria and divorced the nation (Jer. 3:8). Isaiah
lived to see that day and probably wrote this passage
some time after this great divorce. Surely he knew that
most of those Israelites were not justified by faith
during their life here on earth. Yet he says that in that
day all Israel will be JUSTIFIED, which we know comes
only BY FAITH.

Yet many would have us believe that in spite of their
justification, these sinners will be lost forever in the
judgment to come. There is no statement in the Bible
saying that one can only be saved in this present life.
The Church has often quoted Heb. 9:27, "and
inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and
after this comes judgment," explaining that this
means this life is the only opportunity for justification.
But read the verse for yourself. It does not say that.

It is true that men die once, and then comes the
judgment when they are raised at the Great White
Throne. But Paul says that every tongue will "confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the
Father." In 1 Cor. 12:3 Paul says, "no one can say
'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit." So let no
one say that their confession was apart from the
moving of the Holy Spirit. Paul says again in Rom.
10:9,

9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus
as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

When God makes a vow, we ought to take special
notice of it. His vow in Isaiah 45 is not based upon
any conditions. It is simply a statement of what God
will do by His own will. It is similar in nature to His
vow in Num. 14:21, where He vowed, "As I live, all
the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

Such a vow is not based upon the will of man or the
will of the flesh, but only the will of God (John 1:13).
This does not mean that He forces anyone to be
justified; rather, He will make everyone willing and
desirous of being justified. Some will be justified in
their life time; most will be justified at the Great
White Throne. Those who accepted Him earlier will
be rewarded accordingly. Those who only accept
Him later will be "saved yet so as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).

1 Tim. 4:10 says,

10 "For it is for this we labor and strive,
because we have fixed our hope on the
living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of believers."

He did NOT say that God is the Savior of all men--whoops!
I mean all believers. He did NOT say that God is the Savior
of all men, SPECIFICALLY believers. The word is
"especially" (NASB). Strong's Concordance says that the
word (#3122) means "most (in the greatest degree) or
particularly."

He is the Savior of all men, especially believers. There is
a special salvation for believers, but He will save all men.

As the song goes, "The greatest treasure remains for
those who gladly choose You now!" Overcomers will
be raised at the first resurrection to rule with Him.
Believers will be rewarded and unbelievers judged at
the White Throne. But all will ultimately be saved.

Logabe