Is The Soul Immortal?

[RND]

Does man have an inherant immortal soul that never dies? The Bible seems to strongly indicate the exact opposite of the notion that man has an inherantly eternal soul.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

This seems fairly plain. Death comes to the soul that sins.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Here Paul seems to be teaching that we should seek (look for?) eternal life by steadfastly, and constantly the righteous of God.

Does the Bible actually teach that man is eternal by nature or is this simply an imported belief from the pagan lore of the ancient Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek philosophy's?

 

[Paul]

No, man does not have an immortal soul at this time.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal (G2349) must put on immortality (G110).
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



G2349
θνητός
thnētos
thnay-tos'
From G2348; liable to die: - mortal (-ity).


G110
ἀθανασία
athanasia
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.

 

[brionne]

Does the Bible actually teach that man is eternal by nature or is this simply an imported belief from the pagan lore of the ancient Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek philosophy's?

if the bible taught that man is eternal by nature, then the account about Adam and Eve is a contradiction because that account speaks of the punishment of 'death'

if they were always eternal, then death would have been a reward rather then a punishment.

The idea of life after death is from pagan religions, not the bible.

 

[bigape]

I am always surprised when this subject comes up, but I shouldn’t be.
Yes, every human being is born with an immortal soul.

The Bible says.......
Genesis 1:26
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

This image is a tracheotomy(meaning three in one), and each of us have three parts:
Our body, our soul & our Spirit.

Our bodies are what others see, our soul is who we are on the inside and our spirit connects the body and soul.
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The main reason this Biblical truth is so ferociously attacked, is because most people don’t want to be reminded, that they are going to live forever in hell, for rejecting Christ;
But those are the facts.

 

[RND]

I am always surprised when this subject comes up, but I shouldn’t be.
Yes, every human being is born with an immortal soul.

The Bible says.......
Genesis 1:26
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

This image is a tracheotomy(meaning three in one), and each of us have three parts:
Our body, our soul & our Spirit.

Our bodies are what others see, our soul is who we are on the inside and our spirit connects the body and soul.
--------------------------------------------------
The main reason this Biblical truth is so ferociously attacked, is because most people don’t want to be reminded, that they are going to live forever in hell, for rejecting Christ;
But those are the facts.

If what you are saying is true the how do you explain Genesis 3:23-24?

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If man was eternal what was the purpose of placing a flaming sword in the garden to protect against sinful man taking eternal life by taking from the tree of life?

Also where does the Bible say that people will live in hell forever? Doesn't that make the gift of eternal life through Christ in Romans 6:23 a "gag" gift?

 

[brionne]

Immortal = that which 'CANNOT' die

mortal = that which CAN die

As we humans can die, it means we are 'mortal' not 'immortal' and both the bible writers and later christian writers attested to this fact.
Justin Martyr wrote: “Some souls perish.” And Tatian wrote: “O Greeks! The soul is not by itself immortal . . . it dies and dissolves with the body, when it does not know the truth . . . if therefore it rests isolated from the light, it sinks into the matter and dies with the flesh.”

The hebrew scriptures speak exactly the same vein when it says
"the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"


So if Adam was created with 'immortality' then he would not have been able to receive death as a punishment.

 

[bigape]

Hello RND

You asked.......

“If what you are saying is true the how do you explain Genesis 3:23-24?

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If man was eternal what was the purpose of placing a flaming sword in the garden to protect against sinful man taking eternal life by taking from the tree of life?

Also where does the Bible say that people will live in hell forever? Doesn't that make the gift of eternal life through Christ in Romans 6:23 a "gag" gift?”

Well this is explained by the fact that along with “eternal life”, there is also “eternal death”.....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14-15
V.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
V.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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When Adam & Eve sinned, they died Spiritually;
(They had an “eternal death” sentence over their heads.)
Just as every Human being does today........
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But, those who accept God’s free gift of salvation, have their sin debt paid by Jesus, and are born again, being immediately given “eternal life”.

 

[RND]

Hello RND

You asked.......


Well this is explained by the fact that along with “eternal life”, there is also “eternal death”.....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14-15
V.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
V.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--------------------------------------------------
When Adam & Eve sinned, they died Spiritually;

Hmmm, this leads to more questions. For example, if the word of God is inspired how did those that wrote the Bible do so if they were dead spiritually? More to the point however would be how did Eve acknowledge God when her children were born if she was dead spiritually? And who taught her boys to be spiritual if they were dead spiritually?

(They had an “eternal death” sentence over their heads.)
Just as every Human being does today........
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But, those who accept God’s free gift of salvation, have their sin debt paid by Jesus, and are born again, being immediately given “eternal life”.

Of course you realize that none of what you said answers the question I asked. You said that, "every human being is born with an immortal soul." If man was immortal why the need to guard the tree of life?

 

[Foreigner]

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" - Matt 25:41

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matt 25:46

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." - Rev. 14:11



-- Why would there be eternal punishment or the smoke of their torment ascending up "for ever and ever" if the soul is not immortal and they are not going to be around?

There are some who will argue that the fire will burn eternally only for the devil and his angels and for those who take the mark of the best (which what Rev 14:11 is referring to), and all the rest will be consumed into nothing by the fire, but there is nothing I can find to support that opinion.

 

[bigape]

Good morning RND

I will be glad to answer your questions.

You asked......

“More to the point however would be how did Eve acknowledge God when her children were born if she was dead spiritually? And who taught her boys to be spiritual if they were dead spiritually?”

A good question.
The answer is, Adam and Eve, got saved, just before leaving the garden.......
Genesis 3:21
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

They had “made themselves” coverings for their sin(their naked bodies), but this would not work(we can’t save ourselves by good works).
But God provided a covering for their sin, by the death of an innocent animal(pointing to the cross of Christ).

Adam & Eve were saved by God’s grace, because they had no part in their salvation.
--------------------------------------------------
Now for your first question.......

“For example, if the word of God is inspired how did those that wrote the Bible do so if they were dead spiritually?”

They weren’t Spiritually dead.......
2 Peter 1:21
“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Adam & Eve were saved and knew God and passed that knowledge on to their children. Abel received this teaching, while Cain rejected it.
Now both of these boys were “religious” and made altars to God.

God knowing that Abel’s heart was right, accepted his offering, while rejecting Cain offering because Cain had rejected Him.

Later Seth was born, who like Abel accepted the message about God’s grace, and also some of his and grandchildren also accepted this message(Enoch & Noah)........
Genesis 5:24
“And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.”

Genesis 6:8
“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
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In this same way, Abram(Abraham), truly followed the LORD, and obeyed Him, therefore God used him in a mighty way.

God made a Covenant with him and his descendants(by Isaac), this is where we get the 12 tribes of Israel(God’s chosen people).

Everyone that God used to pen His Word was a Jew........
John 4:22
“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”

Romans 3:1-2
V.1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
V.2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

 

[RND]

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" - Matt 25:41

Sodom and Gomorrah were both destroyed with everlasting fire. Are they still burning to this day?

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matt 25:46

Question: Is punishment different that punishing?

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." - Rev. 14:11

Are Jesus and the Holy Angels in hell to?

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

-- Why would there be eternal punishment or the smoke of their torment ascending up "for ever and ever" if the soul is not immortal and they are not going to be around?

Same way the punishment my mother that passed away two years ago will last with me forever and ever until the day that I die. Sometimes it is helpful to understand that a figure of speech is not literal.

There are some who will argue that the fire will burn eternally only for the devil and his angels and for those who take the mark of the best (which what Rev 14:11 is referring to), and all the rest will be consumed into nothing by the fire, but there is nothing I can find to support that opinion.

I can. In several places.

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Psa 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Psa 73:19 How are they [brought] into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners [shall be] together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Fires eventually consume the fuel needed to burn. Once that fuel is consumed the fire goes out!

Do you find any connection between the fact that God Himself is an all consuming fire and this:

Isa 33:14 ¶ The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; 16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.

The following passage seems to indicate that the all consuming fire doesn't kill some people and that actually they dwell in it. Any comments?

Good morning RND

I will be glad to answer your questions.

You asked......

A good question.
The answer is, Adam and Eve, got saved, just before leaving the garden.......
Genesis 3:21
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

They had “made themselves” coverings for their sin(their naked bodies), but this would not work(we can’t save ourselves by good works).
But God provided a covering for their sin, by the death of an innocent animal(pointing to the cross of Christ).

Adam & Eve were saved by God’s grace, because they had no part in their salvation.

So in order to understand God's grace they had to have a spiritual nature to do so right? That means they couldn't have been "spiritually dead" right?

Also King David obviously had God's Holy Spirit elst he wouldn't have prayed that in not be removed from him.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

How could man be dead spiritually and still receive the things of the spirit considering that "spiritual things are spiritually discerned?"

Now for your first question.......

They weren’t Spiritually dead.......

Exactly! So when you tell people that Adam & Eve died spiritually you aren't being completely factual.

 

[bigape]

Hello again RND

Now for your final question.......

“Of course you realize that none of what you said answers the question I asked. You said that, "every human being is born with an immortal soul." If man was immortal why the need to guard the tree of life?”

This is also a good question.

God’s original plan with Adam & Eve, was that they and their descendants live forever in a perfect world with perfect bodies.
Thus the tree of life, was planted in the garden and as long as they had access to it, they would have physically lived forever.

But they sinned and because of their sin, God was forced to curse them and the Earth, and for their own sakes, God prevented them or their kids, from being able to eat of the tree of life, any more.

Now the only way we can gain eternal life today, is by trusting Christ as our Savior and being born again.
By this God promises to give each of us a perfect body and a perfect world, by creating a new heaven and a new Earth.

 

[RND]

Hello again RND

Now for your final question.......

This is also a good question.

God’s original plan with Adam & Eve, was that they and their descendants live forever in a perfect world with perfect bodies.
Thus the tree of life, was planted in the garden and as long as they had access to it, they would have physically lived forever.

But they sinned and because of their sin, God was forced to curse them and the Earth, and for their own sakes, God prevented them or their kids, from being able to eat of the tree of life, any more.

Which means then that the tree of life represents eternal life. Without the tree of life man is mortal, subject to death, and not immortal.

Now the only way we can gain eternal life today, is by trusting Christ as our Savior and being born again.

Ummm, it seems to me that was Adam and Eve's only way to obtain eternal life as well. Wouldn't you agree?

By this God promises to give each of us a perfect body and a perfect world, by creating a new heaven and a new Earth.

Ins't this what God promised Adam when He told Adam trust me and you'll never die but if you don't you will?

Bigape you said of Adam and Eve, "They weren’t Spiritually dead......."

Earlier you said they were. Which is it?

 

[Paul]

...
Everyone that God used to pen His Word was a Jew........
...

Paul wasn't a Jew.

 

[bigape]

Paul wasn't a Jew.

The Bible disagrees with you......

Acts 26:1-7
V.1 ¶ Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
V.2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
V.3 Especially [because I know] thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
V.4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
V.5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
V.6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
V.7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

 

[RND]

Paul wasn't a Jew.

Yes he was! The tribe of Benjamin and Judah were considered in Paul's day to be one tribe.

Act 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

 

[Foreigner]

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." - Rev. 14:11"Are Jesus and the Holy Angels in hell to? " - RND

-- Curious as to why that matters to you. It says "the torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" and you want to confirm in Rev 14:10 that Jesus and the angels have ringside seats?
Tell me, does the answer to that question change the "for ever and ever" part?




"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matt 25:46"Question: Is punishment different that punishing?" - RND

-- Question: Doesn't the word "everlasting" answer that for you?





-- Why would there be eternal punishment or the smoke of their torment ascending up "for ever and ever" if the soul is not immortal and they are not going to be around?
"Same way the punishment my mother that passed away two years ago will last with me forever and ever until the day that I die. Sometimes it is helpful to understand that a figure of speech is not literal." - RND

-- So you're saying that Rev. 14:11, when referring to "for ever and ever"....is using a figure of speech? And what do you base that assumption on?



"Fires eventually consume the fuel needed to burn. Once that fuel is consumed the fire goes out!" - RND

-- If they were consumed there would then be no more "smoke of their torment."



-- But just to confirm. You believe the eternal punishment that those who do not accept Jesus is simply to be burned up into nothingness, nothing more.
The devil and his angels may burn forever, but no one else. Even the special punishment that God promises those who take the mark of the beast end up as total consumpsion by fire.
Is that about right?

 

[RND]

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." - Rev. 14:11"Are Jesus and the Holy Angels in hell to? " - RND

-- Curious as to why that matters to you. It says "the torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" and you want to confirm in Rev 14:10 that Jesus and the angels have ringside seats?
Tell me, does the answer to that question change the "for ever and ever" part?

Yes. What you are suggestion, and I don't think you understand this, is that if people are being roasted and toasted forever and their smoke goes up forever and ever then Jesus and the Angels are there watching it. You get that.

"Forever and ever" has different connotations and meanings regarding the use they are in. For example ever stand in line for two hours in the hot sun waiting for a ride at Disneyland or Magic Mountain? Ever tell someone you waited forever? Forever and ever in Rev. 14:11 means a specific judgment is permanent. Being in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy Angels will be torture and undesirable because of their righteousness, goodness and mercy.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matt 25:46"Question: Is punishment different that punishing?" - RND

-- Question: Doesn't the word "everlasting" answer that for you?

No because it is descriptive of the type of punishment, not descriptive of the punishing. The punishment is everlasting not the punishing. I'll give you an example. I remember a specific beating my mother gave me when a neighbor saw me do something as a child I shouldn't have done. My mother has been dead for two years. She isn't still punishing me but I still remember the punishment. See the difference?

-- Why would there be eternal punishment or the smoke of their torment ascending up "for ever and ever" if the soul is not immortal and they are not going to be around?
"Same way the punishment my mother that passed away two years ago will last with me forever and ever until the day that I die. Sometimes it is helpful to understand that a figure of speech is not literal." - RND

-- So you're saying that Rev. 14:11, when referring to "for ever and ever"....is using a figure of speech? And what do you base that assumption on?

The fact that "forever and ever" is frequently used as a figure of speech quite a bit in scripture. Hannah dedicated Samuel to the Lord for ever. Did Samuel live for ever or is this a figure of speech?

"Fires eventually consume the fuel needed to burn. Once that fuel is consumed the fire goes out!" - RND

-- If they were consumed there would then be no more "smoke of their torment."

Yes there would especially when "smoke and torment" are understood the way they are used. For example, is there a confrontation or a situation in your life (like an exchange with a waitress or hotel clerk) that still gets you fumed to this day even though it may have happened in the past? I got a ticket once that I didn't think I deserve and it still makes me mad thinking about it to this day. The smoke of this situation is forever (or until I die).

-- But just to confirm. You believe the eternal punishment that those who do not accept Jesus is simply to be burned up into nothingness, nothing more.

Correct.

The devil and his angels may burn forever, but no one else. Even the special punishment that God promises those who take the mark of the beast end up as total consumpsion by fire.
Is that about right?

Yep, but even the devil and his angels will be utterly consumed.

 

[Foreigner]

The devil and his angels may burn forever, but no one else. Even the special punishment that God promises those who take the mark of the beast end up as total consumpsion by fire.
Is that about right?
"Yep, but even the devil and his angels will be utterly consumed. " - RND



-- Rev. 20:10 disagrees with you:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - KJV

 

[RND]

The devil and his angels may burn forever, but no one else. Even the special punishment that God promises those who take the mark of the beast end up as total consumpsion by fire.
Is that about right?
"Yep, but even the devil and his angels will be utterly consumed. " - RND



-- Rev. 20:10 disagrees with you:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - KJV

Not treally. The devil and his minions will also be destroyed. SeeEzekiel 28

Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.