The Truth About The Rapture

veteran · Jan 19, 2011

Vincent, to help you see the 7th trumpet timing better, I offer response to what you posted...

Vincent said:
Isn't it obvious? Both both occur after the thousand years are over. How can they not be the same event? Let me explain my timeline in a little more detail.

Our resurrection/transformation (which most people refer to as the rapture event) happens just before the seventh trumpet sounds.

Vincent said:
Revelation 10:6-7 "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished".

Just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the mystery will be accomplished. The mystery of God is the final resurrection and transformation of the righteous into eternal life.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

Rev.10 says the when the 7th trumpet 'begins to sound' then God's mystery is finished, and not before its sounding. Rev.11 shows the 7th trumpet occurring along with the 3rd last woe.

Now, let’s try to establish when, in relation to other events, is the seventh trumpet blown.

When the seventh trumpet blows, Revelation tells us three things.

1. The kingdom of God begins and he will reign forever and ever.
2. God’s wrath has come.
3. Time for the judging of the dead.
So we see that God’s everlasting kingdom begins when the seventh trumpet blows, which means that for this to happen before the millennium, the millennium must be (a part of) God’s everlasting kingdom. But can God’s everlasting kingdom begin when we know that Satan will be released again in a thousand years? How is that possible? How is it possible for Satan to be released into God’s perfect kingdom? And since we know that God’s kingdom is to last “forever and ever” we can not put a thousand year limit on it. In other words, it’s impossible to reconcile God’s kingdom beginning before Satan is released from his prison to deceive the nations. Using simple logic we can see that the millennium is not God’s kingdom and God’s kingdom must begin after Satan is done away with, after the millennium.

But if that’s not enough, we also know that the judging of the dead (which happens at the 7th trumpet) happens after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. And, at the time of judging, “death and Hades” are thrown into the lake of fire, so there is no more death after the time of judging which begins when the seventh trumpet blows. How then can this trumpet blow before the millennium? We know that Satan will bring the armies of the earth against Jerusalem after the millennium, but if there is no more death, then what’s the point? If you can’t kill anyone, why have an army? This proves that when Satan is released from his prison after the millennium death has not yet been thrown into the lake of fire. Which means that the seventh trumpet can not have blown before the millennium.

At Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, it begins the Milennium reign of Christ, and there will be a judgment (not the later great white throne judgment). That first one will be about Christ separating the goats from His sheep for the Milennium timing. It's about those of the first resurrection vs. the spiritually dead of Rev.20:5. The "second death" will still be in effect for those of the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29). The unjust will be changed/resurrected on that 7th trumpet event too, but will still be subject to the second death (souls dead without The Holy Spirit).

God's everlasting Kingdom will indeed 'begin' on earth with Christ's coming and gathering of His faithful saints to Jerusalem at the 7th trump. It begins, but is not complete until after the lake of fire event. It begins on earth with that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" (at Jerusalem) of Rev.20:9. The wicked will still be on earth, but outside... that camp of the saints (i.e., the "outer darkness"; Rev.22:14-15). The tree of life and God's River will begin on earth, along with a literal temple per the Book of Ezekiel.

Then after Christ's thousand years reign, and after the lake of fire event with death destroyed, that's when God's Kingdom in full is going to manifest upon this earth, as the new heavens and a new earth. Some earth changes occur with Christ's coming, but a lot more changes occur in final after the lake of fire event. Yet when Christ returns to start His thousand years reign on earth, that's truly when God's Kingdom will begin on earth literally, and never ever be destroyed. But it's going to manifest in stages.

Now let’s see how the harvest and wrath fit into all of this.

Revelation 14:14-19. This passage describes the “harvest of the earth” and the “grapes of wrath”. The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown. Then the harvest of the grapes happens just after the seventh trumpet is blown. We know this because the description of the grapes being trampled is a description of the pouring out of God's seven bowls of wrath. The seven bowls are God's wrath. Not the seals or the trumpets, only the bowls. So the seventh trumpet blows just after our resurrection/transformation and before wrath.

That's not correct. Notice Christ gives a warning between the 6th and 7th vial (bowl) in Rev.16:15 later.

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

Apostles Paul and Peter linked the day of The LORD and cup of God's wrath timing with Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Christ is warning His saints there specifically in that time period between the 6th and 7th vials. And just like the mystery being finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet per Rev.10, got that same kind of declaration there on the 7th vial. That reveals the 7th trumpet and 7th vial are timed together.

tomwebster · Jan 19, 2011

veteran said:
Apostles Paul and Peter linked the day of The LORD and cup of God's wrath timing with Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Christ is warning His saints there specifically in that time period between the 6th and 7th vials. And just like the mystery being finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet per Rev.10, got that same kind of declaration there on the 7th vial. That reveals the 7th trumpet and 7th vial are timed together.

You are aware of course, that the Night of the Lord comes before the Day of the Lord.

242006 · Jan 19, 2011

Vincent said:
Watchman, I think all this animosity can be avoided if you can prove with scripture your claims, because obviously your claims are hard to believe. And simply pointing us to 2 Peter is obviously not going to do it because we don't see what you see. You're going to have to be a lot more convincing.

Well, the animosity cannot be avoided with Rach, due to her vitriolic nature. I have proven her in error so many times already and, yet, she still approaches me with disdain instead of humility and gratefulness for the education that she has been provided.

O.K. -- let me walk you through the basics.

1. Previous 'age'. The declarative basis for the prior age is established in 2 Pet. 3:6. Most consider this to refer to Noah's flood, without giving consideration for the other flood [Gen. 1:2]. The key to informing the Bible student which flood is being spoken of rests in the word "perished". In Strong's, it is -

ἀπόλλυμι

apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

In evaluating Noah's flood, one can see the survival of the following:

1. Noah and his family
2. All animals
3 All plant life
4. All the races of people
5. Sin

Hence, the previous age could not have been fully destroyed with Noah's flood. The previous age was destroyed by the other flood. This destruction of the first age is evidenced by God's actions in recreating this second age as evidenced in Gen. 1 [6 Days of creation].

2. Satan's Fall. The people, who deny the first age taking place prior to the 6 days of creation in Gen. 1, cannot provide an explanation for, and documentation thereof, the fall of Satan. In reading Genesis, we first encounter Satan in Gen. 2 already in the fallen state. That leaves two possibilities. Either God created Satan evil or Satan became evil from his own free will. If the latter is the case, then the burden falls on those denying a first age to provide scriptural evidence as to when [which day of creation] and how Satan fell.

Ezekiel 28 best describes Satan's fall. The scripture linking Satan as the prince and king of Tyrus is v. 13. One also construes that Satan was not alone in Eze. 28. He was the 'cherub that covereth' [v. 14] and engaged in commerce [v. 5, 16, and 18]. Satan's commerce and fall into sin took place in the first age. Everyone else existed in the first age as well.

3. The 1/3 who fell with Satan. Rev. 12:4 details that 1/3 of the souls fell with Satan. Those that deny the existence of the first age will claim that 12:4 will take place in this current age [future]. This is easily disproven as one compares Satan's one world government at the time the 1/3 fell to the future event. In 12:3, the one-world gov't is described as "seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns". In the future [v. 13:1], Satan's one-world gov't is described as "seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns".

Clearly, there are two distinct one-world gov'ts associated with Satan's reign, which would mean that he reigned at some time in the past. That reign took place in the first age. The 1/3 that fell with Satan, as described in 12:4, did so in the first age.

4. Purpose of this age. 2 Pet. 3:7 detail the purpose for God's creation of this second age. The phrase 'kept in store' means reserved. This second age is reserving judgment. The word 'reserved' means 'keep an eye upon'. There must be a group that needs to be evaluated from the first age in this age. The word 'ungodly' means 'irreverent'. The ones irreverent in the first age were those that rebelled with Satan.

This scripture is speaking of the 1/3 that fell with Satan in the first age. This second age is giving those 1/3 who rebelled [except Satan] another chance, while preserving those who were not at fault at all in the first age.

hereister · Jan 19, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Well, the animosity cannot be avoided with Rach, due to her vitriolic nature. I have proven her in error so many times already and, yet, she still approaches me with disdain instead of humility and gratefulness for the education that she has been provided.

O.K. -- let me walk you through the basics.

1. Previous 'age'. The declarative basis for the prior age is established in 2 Pet. 3:6. Most consider this to refer to Noah's flood, without giving consideration for the other flood [Gen. 1:2]. The key to informing the Bible student which flood is being spoken of rests in the word "perished". In Strong's, it is -

ἀπόλλυμι

apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

In evaluating Noah's flood, one can see the survival of the following:

1. Noah and his family
2. All animals
3 All plant life
4. All the races of people
5. Sin

Hence, the previous age could not have been fully destroyed with Noah's flood. The previous age was destroyed by the other flood. This destruction of the first age is evidenced by God's actions in recreating this second age as evidenced in Gen. 1 [6 Days of creation].

2. Satan's Fall. The people, who deny the first age taking place prior to the 6 days of creation in Gen. 1, cannot provide an explanation for, and documentation thereof, the fall of Satan. In reading Genesis, we first encounter Satan in Gen. 2 already in the fallen state. That leaves two possibilities. Either God created Satan evil or Satan became evil from his own free will. If the latter is the case, then the burden falls on those denying a first age to provide scriptural evidence as to when [which day of creation] and how Satan fell.

Ezekiel 28 best describes Satan's fall. The scripture linking Satan as the prince and king of Tyrus is v. 13. One also construes that Satan was not alone in Eze. 28. He was the 'cherub that covereth' [v. 14] and engaged in commerce [v. 5, 16, and 18]. Satan's commerce and fall into sin took place in the first age. Everyone else existed in the first age as well.

3. The 1/3 who fell with Satan. Rev. 12:4 details that 1/3 of the souls fell with Satan. Those that deny the existence of the first age will claim that 12:4 will take place in this current age [future]. This is easily disproven as one compares Satan's one world government at the time the 1/3 fell to the future event. In 12:3, the one-world gov't is described as "seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns". In the future [v. 13:1], Satan's one-world gov't is described as "seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns".

Clearly, there are two distinct one-world gov'ts associated with Satan's reign, which would mean that he reigned at some time in the past. That reign took place in the first age. The 1/3 that fell with Satan, as described in 12:4, did so in the first age.

4. Purpose of this age. 2 Pet. 3:7 detail the purpose for God's creation of this second age. The phrase 'kept in store' means reserved. This second age is reserving judgment. The word 'reserved' means 'keep an eye upon'. There must be a group that needs to be evaluated from the first age in this age. The word 'ungodly' means 'irreverent'. The ones irreverent in the first age were those that rebelled with Satan.

This scripture is speaking of the 1/3 that fell with Satan in the first age. This second age is giving those 1/3 who rebelled [except Satan] another chance, while preserving those who were not at fault at all in the first age.

Good post Watchman.

Many simply read over 2 Peter, assuming it's the flood of Noah's time being spoken about, without really checking the full meaning of the words and/or compaing it Noah's flood. When one does their homework, they start to see that 2 Peter is not speaking about Noah's flood, for Noah's flood did not fully detroy the earth. God didn't have to recreate anything after the flood of Noah's time.

And as you have also noted Watchman, Gen1:2 has the earth standing in water...

Vincent · Jan 19, 2011

veteran said:
Vincent, to help you see the 7th trumpet timing better, I offer response to what you posted...

Veteran, I have started a separate thread on this topic so I responded to you there. Here is the link
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13148-the-timing-of-the-seventh-trumpet/page__gopid__97839#entry97839

242006 · Jan 19, 2011

hereister said:
Good post Watchman.

Many simply read over 2 Peter, assuming it's the flood of Noah's time being spoken about, without really checking the full meaning of the words and/or compaing it Noah's flood. When one does their homework, they start to see that 2 Peter is not speaking about Noah's flood, for Noah's flood did not fully detroy the earth. God didn't have to recreate anything after the flood of Noah's time.

And as you have also noted Watchman, Gen1:2 has the earth standing in water...

Thank you. Of course, those who place the first age in the time from Adam to Noah create a whole host of Biblical problems. You hit upon one in that God did not recreate anything after Noah's flood. There is also the issue of predestination - free will, which cannot be understood/squared. In addition, such false theology leads to young earth doctrine, which gives validity to that damned Evolution religion.

Rach1370 · Jan 20, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
Actually, you are the rude one! Go look at your previous post(s). You pretend to be seeking knowledge; but, in reality, you are not interested in learning at all. Instead, you take advantage of the topic to issue your [feckless] commentary.
You would be less disingenuous if you just remained silent.
It's obvious that you don't know Bible basics. This website has included a subforum for the three ages. I suggest you go learn Bible basics by going there for an education.
"Rhetorically asked" means 'no reply' requested.
That's why I wrote that you are not familiar with Bible basics. You simply are unlearned.
Assuming arguendo that your lame interpretation is correct, if the previous age took place from the time of Adam to Noah, the earth would only by 6,000 years old [Adam dates back a bit over 6,000 years]. How stupid is that [rhetorically asked] ?? Then, how is it that God destroyed that age [Noah's flood] if all plants, animals, and races of people survived it [rhetorically asked]??

You are a liar! How does a simple statement "Try learning the Word of God" get bastardized in your brain to mean "going to burn in hell" [rhetorically asked]??

Thank you for showing the viewers your complete ignorance regarding this topic. As I previously wrote, "When the truth is exposed, you don't have a clue in explaining it."

Some people love going through life in fear of the Truth. Instead of objectively evaluating an issue to determine whether the indoctrination [brainwashing] received in one's church is true or not, those, like you, prefer to do the ostrich [stick heads in the sand] to avoid Truth. Instead, any attempt to edify those like you is met with the vitriolic [feckless] commentary one sees in your posts.

Why bother proving it to you [rhetorically asked]?? I have already proven you in error a few times already at this website and you have yet to acknowledge your error or to thank me once. Besides, there is relevant information in the three ages subforum. -- READ IT!!

Thanks for proving my point!

Just so you know, I wasn't out to 'stick it to you', that's not how I work. I genuinely wanted to know what you thought. I believe it was you who whipped out the insults first.

Also FYI, it doesn't bother me when you call me a liar, or stupid or a shrew. I have very little effort in ignoring the verbal vomiting of a man so angry and bitter and self righteous. When it all comes down to it, God is my Judge....yours too. So I suppose we'll see.

And as far as me 'interpreting' you saying those who differ from you will burn in hell, you say it so often I could probably choose any thread and find your own words.

Oh yeah, all of this is of course asked rhetorically, in fact you may consider all most posts here after as rhetorical.

By the way, I didnt miss the fact that you managed to spend your time spewing hate, rather than actually showing Bible verses that might back your crazy claim. Could it be there are none?

Watchman_2 said:
Rapturists, hold true to form in the endtime, all miss the first resurrection. Many of them, having been taught the Truth and rejected it for the lie of rapture, will end up in the Lake of Fire as they tossed away their salvation.

Whoops, there we are.....'end up in the lake of fire'.

Martin W. · Jan 20, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
most of the 1/3 of souls that fell with Satan in the first age are the so-called Christians of today.

This is the most incredible and bizarre thing I have ever heard . Absolutely amazing how people can come up with such wacky ideas.

242006 · Jan 20, 2011

Martin W. said:
This is the most incredible and bizarre thing I have ever heard . Absolutely amazing how people can come up with such wacky ideas.

See Post #203 in this topic. You are one of the 1/3.

242006 · Jan 20, 2011

One of the major reasons that Rapturists deny the Christian teaching of a prior age is Rapturists' misconception that, since they declare themselves to be 'Christian', it is Christ's continuing responsibility to save them. Part of the continuing responsibility that they have assigned to Christ is to spare them from endtime tribulation.

Hence, when Christians inform Rapturists of the prior age, that it is God's intent to use Satan to tempt the 1/3 who rebelled with Satan in the prior age, and that many of that 1/3 are those claiming to be 'Christian' today [near endtime], it shakes the very core of their misconceived idea of Christ's responisibilities. The Truth that Christians are portraying to Rapturists is that it is those with free will own responsibility, and not Christ's, to maintain their salvation. The thought that the purpose for the endtime return of Satan is to test those calling themselves 'Christian', and not the non-Christians, is anathema to Rapturists.

Foreigner · Jan 20, 2011

Does anyone else hear the theme to the "Twilight Zone" when Watchman posts?

tomwebster · Jan 20, 2011

Foreigner said:
Does anyone else hear the theme to the "Twilight Zone" when Watchman posts?

Only those that can't see.

Foreigner · Jan 20, 2011

Must be pretty loud for you then.

Martin W. · Jan 20, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
See Post #203 in this topic. You are one of the 1/3.

Quite the opposite.
As a matter of fact I heed what Peter said about wacko theology:

-- For we do not follow cleverly devised stories
--We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable
--prophecy never had its origin in the human will
--there will be false teachers among you.
--They will secretly introduce destructive heresies
--these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories.

_________________________________________________________

And as far as Peter saying :
----By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

Just before that Peter said:
----if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah,

It is clear he refers to the flood of Noah , not some imaginary deluge in some imaginary first earth age .

__________________________________________________________

Watchman , would you not find it much easier to leave scripture as it is , instead of forcing it to fit some mythical first earth age ?? You must sweat bullets trying to keep your theory from collapsing. It clouds your every thought. I find it much easier to believe Peter's straightforward writings. But that's just me.

Rach1370 · Jan 20, 2011

Foreigner said:
Does anyone else hear the theme to the "Twilight Zone" when Watchman posts?

Oh yeah!!!
I've decided not to post with him anymore....I tend to sink to his level when I do, and I get convicted of it.

I really wanted to show him Jesus' love....and how important it is to just read the Bible, not look for strange hidden stories under the words. But he just won't hear it, so I'll just have to leave it alone.

australia · Jan 20, 2011

Martin W. said:
It is clear he refers to the flood of Noah...

Was that a joke Martin W.?

Your explanation was totally devoid of clarity, particularly how you deliberately avoided posting the verse numbers you were referring to. Your chosen Holy Scripture translation itself was something I've not seen before. Your teaching methods thus appear atrocious.

How about trying again so that we can see exactly how you clarified your above statement?

tomwebster · Jan 20, 2011

Martin W. said:
... But that's just me.

Unfortunately it's not just you that cannot understand the deeper truths in Scripture. Someday you will, but not now. Sleep on!

One thing Marty, were their ever dinosaur, like the Brontosaurus? When did they live? Course, those bones could have been planted by Watchman.

tomwebster · Jan 20, 2011

The Brontosaurus in the previous post should have been the BRACHIOSAURUS.

australia · Jan 20, 2011

Rach said:
I really wanted to show him Jesus' love....and how important it is to just read the Bible, not look for strange hidden stories under the words.

You think Watchman_2 has no love for Jesus? You think it best he just reads and not shares his findings? The following verse comes to mind;

Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

The Holy Bible has many "strange hidden stories". If you love Jesus, why wouldn't you want to look for and try and understand them?

Of course, the choice is yours; many choose not to. How else could there be differentiation between the seven churches described in Revelation?

1Co 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Rach1370 · Jan 21, 2011

australia said:
You think Watchman_2 has no love for Jesus? You think it best he just reads and not shares his findings? The following verse comes to mind;

Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

The Holy Bible has many "strange hidden stories". If you love Jesus, why wouldn't you want to look for and try and understand them?

Of course, the choice is yours; many choose not to. How else could there be differentiation between the seven churches described in Revelation?

1Co 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I think that if Watchman has love for Jesus, he is not very good at showing it. I understand that he believes he is correct, and that therefore I would be wrong. But I disagree. Instead of trying to persuade me using love, reasoning and scripture, he leaps to verbal attacks. Attacks that are NOT Christian in nature.
He judges a person on their beliefs in secondary issues, which just divides, when we should be united in the primary ones. I think there is plenty of depth within scripture...it is a wonder! But both the wonder and the truth can be seen without making up story tales that have zero Biblical basis.
When it comes to bowing before his opinion or being subjected to character assassination...I have chosen to simply withdraw. I am completely confident in my faith in Christ, and while I'm sorry he comes across as so angry and bitter, it won't make me loose any sleep.

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