Calvinism vs. Arminianism

Renniks said:

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 )

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. -1 John 4:14

In these passages John states that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, and came to be Savior of the the world. The Greek word for world is kosmos. The English word “cosmos” is derived from this word. Cosmos means the entire universe.
For example, 1 John 5:19 states: We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

In 1 John 5:19 “whole world” cannot refer to only the elect, because it is speaking of the present fallen world under the control of Satan. It is this same world that Jesus died for.

For the purpose of illustrating John’s consistent use of kosmos, here is every occurrence from First John. Note how often John makes reference to the present fallen world. There is no exegetical merit to change the meaning to “elect” in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

1 John 3:13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.

1 John 4:1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 John 4:4-5 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

1 John 4:13-18 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. [Notice how the Calvinist definition of world contradicts itself within this particular passage]

1 John 5:3-5 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

In summary, The terms “whole world” and “world” as used in First John apply to the entire world. The same world that is under the control of Satan is the same world for which Jesus died.

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In your final paragraph, you place yourself in "the whole world".

The Apostle John states "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

That put you, Renniks, in the evil one according to your own interpretaion/admission (see your final paragraph).

The Apostle John states "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), so Christians are NOT in the evil one because "overcome" means to be beyond.

We Christians are not in the evil one per John who states "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13).

A person who is in the evil does not have the Holy Spirit, and such a person does not understand scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21).

justbyfaith said:

Of course.

God gives us faith and we must receive it in order to apprehend it and therefore possess it.

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You started off correct with "God gives us faith" which aligns with faith/belief being a work of God.

Then you wrote "and we must receive it", which goes along with John 1:12-13.

But then you say "in order to apprehend it and therefore possess it".

I am honestly trying to undersand what you are saying, so I ask you the next question.

Are you saying that a person manipulates faith/belief which God works in the person such that the person causes the person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent?

Kermos said:

The first verse of Isaiah 45 does not change the fact that the "I" in Isaiah 45:7 is referring to God.



That has zero impact on the fact that God declares "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).
God is not the author of evil.

See here Is God Responsible for Evil?


Jesus said "father" not "god".

Lord Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14), and the Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).



You just wrote that "YHWH creates evil". It appears that you just contradicted your own defiant argument. The Word of God declares "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7).



I am telling you that, according to the Word of God, God forms the light and God creates darkness and God makes peace and God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7).

I am in admiration of all of the Word of God.

Now that I've answered your question, I pose a question, "where did this branch of this thread start to include Isaiah 45:7", and I answer this question by writing that the first mention of Isaiah 45:7 that I noticed in this thread was this post which was a reply to an unscriptural posting.

If you spent a moment going through the thread, you might have noticed this.

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You do not even understand it is the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Not a tree of good and evil. God does not create evil.

See here Is God Responsible for Evil?

If you want to know anything you can ask, but please do not go telling people about things you do not fully understand. I have seen your posts.
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Yeah, the ability to skillfully mince words and perpetuate contention is so impressive.

Kermos said:

That put you, Renniks, in the evil one according to your own interpretaion/admission (see your final paragraph).

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We all are in the world are we not? You are confusing that reality with each person's current spiritual state. We come out from the world in a spiritual sense but we are still in the world which is under the sway of Satan.

justbyfaith said:

I am saying that, while faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17), that some do not mix the word of God with faith (Hebrews 4:2 (kjv)); and that this is their decision.

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When I read your post, I think you are saying a person has to activate faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent. I use the word "activate" to mean consciously decide as an autonomous agent to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent. Am I understanding what you are saying?

Regarding Hebrews 4:2, which states "For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard" (Hebrews 4:2, NASB).

This reminds me of God saying that God's Word shall not return to God void (Isaiah 55:11).

Cooper said:

You do not even understand it is the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Not a tree of good and evil. God does not create evil.

See here Is God Responsible for Evil?

If you want to know anything you can ask, but please do not go telling people about things you do not fully understand. I have seen your posts.
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It is written "Out of the ground YHWH God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:9), so God caused "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" to grow.

It is written "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat" (Genesis 2:17); therefore, God uses the name of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

You just subtracted from the Word of God, for you say that, and I quote you, "it is the tree of KNOWLEDGE.", so when you stopped your sentence, you subtracted the full identification of the "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

The word "evil" matches in Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:17, and Isaiah 45:7, so the word is accurately translated as "evil".

Your words of "God does not create evil" demonstrates your proclivity to subtract from the Word of God, such as where the Word of God states "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), and this has been shown to you earlier in this thread.

People that subtract from the Word of God are liars, and it is written of liars "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into" the holy city (Revelation 21:27).

Renniks said:

We all are in the world are we not?

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You wrote "in the whole world", but I wrote "part of the whole world" in my question to you, so in your final paragraph of your post in response to my question to you, therein you place yourself as "part of the whole world".

You are confusing that reality with each person's current spiritual state. We come out from the world in a spiritual sense but we are still in the world which is under the sway of Satan.

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The Apostle John states "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

You, in the referenced post, state place yourself as part of the whole world.

Since you believe that, then your name can be used in place of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, such that Renniks "lies in the evil one".

This is according to your own interpretaion/admission of "the whole world".

The Apostle John also declares "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) in speaking of Christians, so Christians are NOT in the evil one because "overcome" means to be beyond.

A person who is in the evil does not have the Holy Spirit, and such a person does not understand scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Kermos said:

Since you believe that, then your name can be used in place of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, such that Renniks "lies in the evil one".

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We all do in the sense that this world is under the influence of the evil one, and we are part of the world.

Kermos said:

It is written "Out of the ground YHWH God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:9), so God caused "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" to grow.

It is written "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat" (Genesis 2:17); therefore, God uses the name of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

You just subtracted from the Word of God, for you say that, and I quote you, "it is the tree of KNOWLEDGE.", so when you stopped your sentence, you subtracted the full identification of the "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

The word "evil" matches in Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:17, and Isaiah 45:7, so the word is accurately translated as "evil".

Your words of "God does not create evil" demonstrates your proclivity to subtract from the Word of God, such as where the Word of God states "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), and this has been shown to you earlier in this thread.

People that subtract from the Word of God are liars, and it is written of liars "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into" the holy city (Revelation 21:27).

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The only reason I am talking to you, is because you need to get this clear in your mind.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil provided a test of man's obedience. The only reason it was wrong to eat of that fruit was because God had said so. In different forms, that fruit is still with us today. (Believers Bible)
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Renniks said:

We all do in the sense that this world is under the influence of the evil one, and we are part of the world.

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You just attempted to change the the words of my question again with your current words of "world is under the influence of the evil one", similar to how I exposed your previous attempt in this post here.

John wrote something far more potent than your writing.

John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

This means that it's not just "influence". This means "in" "the" "evil" "one".

Furthermore, the Apostle John declared "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) in speaking of we Christians, so we Christians are NOT in the evil one.

"Overcome" means beyond, so we Christians are beyond the evil one.

We Christians are in Christ (1 John 1:3)!

Your statement falls apart when compared to the First Book of John.

Since you retain your interpretation that "the whole world" includes you, Renniks, then your name can be used in place of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, such that Renniks "lies in the evil one".

A person who is in the evil does not have the Holy Spirit, and such a person does not understand scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Cooper said:

The only reason I am talking to you, is because you need to get this clear in your mind.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil provided a test of man's obedience. The only reason it was wrong to eat of that fruit was because God had said so. In different forms, that fruit is still with us today. (Believers Bible)
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You still subtracted from the Word of God TWICE as I pointed out in this post.

I brought up the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the word "evil" in "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is the Hebrew word ra, and I pointed out that the Hebrew word ra is translated as the word "evil" in:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

This means that the word "evil" is accurate in Isaiah 45:7.

Your words of "God does not create evil" demonstrates your proclivity to subtract from the Word of God, such as where the Word of God states "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), and this has been shown to you earlier in this thread.

People that subtract from the Word of God are liars, and it is written of liars "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into" the holy city (Revelation 21:27).

Kermos said:

You still subtracted from the Word of God TWICE as I pointed out in this post.

I brought up the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the word "evil" in "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is the Hebrew word ra, and I pointed out that the Hebrew word ra is translated as the word "evil" in:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

This means that the word "evil" is accurate in Isaiah 45:7.

Your words of "God does not create evil" demonstrates your proclivity to subtract from the Word of God, such as where the Word of God states "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), and this has been shown to you earlier in this thread.

People that subtract from the Word of God are liars, and it is written of liars "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into" the holy city (Revelation 21:27).

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Evil people are those who murder, worship false gods and generally break the Ten Commandments, disobeying God the same as Adam and Eve did in the Garden, despite them having only one commandment to obey at the time. God created evil when he codified it in the commandments by which the Old Testament people were judged as to whether they were righteous in the sight of God or not.

Then the Israelites did the same with the 613 Mitzvot Laws, putting even more people under condemnation. Evil is created by the wrongdoer, not by God in whom there is no fault.

God did not create evil, he defined it.
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Kermos said:

John wrote something far more potent than your writing.

John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

This means that it's not just "influence". This means "in" "the" "evil" "one".

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The first thing to note about 1 John 5:19 is that the words “control” or “sway” are not found in the Greek at all. These words are added by the translators in an attempt to make sense of what John writes.

In 1 John 5:19, translators have to decide whether the substantive adjective (Gk., tō ponērō) is referring a thing (wickedness) or to a being (the wicked one). Those translators that opt for “a being” called “the wicked one” then add additional words to the verse to show how the world lies on the wicked one. They say it lies under “the power” or under “the sway” of the wicked one (NIV, NAS, NKJV). Those translations that opt for a thing, “wickedness,” need no additional words to explain John’s point.

John is saying the world lies in wickedness. It is covered in wickedness. This point would be identical to what John wrote earlier in his letter, that everyone is a sinner (1 John 1:8-10).
The NKJV uses the much more ambiguous word “sway.” This does not imply complete control, but instead is closer to the idea of “influence” or “guidance.
Even if we say that the verse is properly translated as Calvinistic theology requires, and we allow John to be saying that the “whole world is under the control of the evil one,” this does not mean that the whole world is unable to believe in Jesus for eternal life. Earlier in his letter, John has written about the “whole world” and has stated that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
The entire book of 1 John is engaged in this idea about good and evil, light and darkness, truth and error, and John is intent on showing his readers that based on who God is and what Jesus has done for all people, we can choose to live in love, light, and righteousness, rather than abide in hatred, darkness, and evil

justbyfaith said:

So, God so loved those who are under the sway of the evil one, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life?

Makes sense to me...God loved those who are captivated by the devil enough to want to win them away from their bondage to satan...and when He has done so, they are in the world but no longer of it.

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justbyfaith, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

Based, on your above post, the answer appears to be yes which would place you in the same category as Renniks, but at this time I defer to an answer from you.

Cooper said:

Evil people are those who murder, worship false gods and generally break the Ten Commandments, disobeying God the same as Adam and Eve did in the Garden, despite them having only one commandment to obey at the time. God created evil when he codified it in the commandments by which the Old Testament people were judged as to whether they were righteous in the sight of God or not.

Then the Israelites did the same with the 613 Mitzvot Laws, putting even more under condemnation. Evil is created by the wrongdoer, not by God in whom there is no fault.
.

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You attempt to evade the point, again.

The point is that the Word of God declares "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

You write "God does not create evil" (link to your post in this thread) which demonstrates your proclivity to subtract from the Word of God, such as where the Word of God states "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), and this has been shown to you earlier in this thread.

People that subtract from the Word of God are liars, and it is written of liars "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into" the holy city (Revelation 21:27).

Renniks said:

The first thing to note about 1 John 5:19 is that the words “control” or “sway” are not found in the Greek at all. These words are added by the translators in an attempt to make sense of what John writes.

In 1 John 5:19, translators have to decide whether the substantive adjective (Gk., tō ponērō) is referring a thing (wickedness) or to a being (the wicked one). Those translators that opt for “a being” called “the wicked one” then add additional words to the verse to show how the world lies on the wicked one. They say it lies under “the power” or under “the sway” of the wicked one (NIV, NAS, NKJV). Those translations that opt for a thing, “wickedness,” need no additional words to explain John’s point.

John is saying the world lies in wickedness. It is covered in wickedness. This point would be identical to what John wrote earlier in his letter, that everyone is a sinner (1 John 1:8-10).
The NKJV uses the much more ambiguous word “sway.” This does not imply complete control, but instead is closer to the idea of “influence” or “guidance.
Even if we say that the verse is properly translated as Calvinistic theology requires, and we allow John to be saying that the “whole world is under the control of the evil one,” this does not mean that the whole world is unable to believe in Jesus for eternal life. Earlier in his letter, John has written about the “whole world” and has stated that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
The entire book of 1 John is engaged in this idea about good and evil, light and darkness, truth and error, and John is intent on showing his readers that based on who God is and what Jesus has done for all people, we can choose to live in love, light, and righteousness, rather than abide in hatred, darkness, and evil

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The only other occurrence of πονηρῷ (Strongs 4190) in the New Testament is "evil person" in this place where Lord Jesus says "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" (Matthew 5:39), and this same Greek word is translated to "evil one" in this place where the Apostle John writes "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19); therefore, the usage is consistent; furthermore, "evil person" (a being) is corresponded to "whoever" (a being) in Matthew 5:39, and "evil one" (a being) is contrasted to "God" (a being) in 1 John 5:19, so the linguistical structure is logical.

The Strongs definition of πονηρῷ (Strongs 4190) is toilsome, bad, and it's usage is evil, bad, wicked, malicious, slothful; therefore, in 1 John 5:19 could have "wicked one" instead of "evil one", but this results in the same meaning; however, "evil one" is accurate in 1 John 5:19.

The word πονηρόν (Strongs 4190), "evil one", used in 1 John 2:13 is a different conjugate of the same word πονηρῷ (Strongs 4190), "evil one", used in 1 John 5:19.

Even if you could linguistically change "evil one" (a being) to "wickedness" (a thing), then your problem remains that you, Renniks lie in wickedness.

To remain consistent within your redefinition of words, "evil one" in 1 John 2:13 would need to be changed to "wickedness", so 1 John 2:13 becomes "you have overcome the wickedness".

Your redefinition of words keeps you in wickedness because you say that you are in the whole world according to 1 John 5:19, yet in 1 John 2:13 indicates overcome wickedness, not indicating in wickedness, but indicating beyond wickedness.

To be linguistically accurate, the words are a being, as in "evil one", in 1 John 2:13 and 1 John 5:19.

Therefore, this post about you being in the evil one remains accurate according to your interpretation.

I notice that two poignant questions have not been answered. One question to @Grailhunter posed in this post, and the question is put here for your, Grailhunter's, convenience:

• Grailhunter, you wrote "in the whole world", but I wrote "part of the whole world", so you did not accurately represent the question, so I ask specifically again. Do you, Grailhunter, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

The second question to @justbyfaith posed in this post, and the question is put here for your, justbyfaith's, convenience:

• When I read your post, I think you are saying a person has to activate faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent. I use the word "activate" to mean consciously decide as an autonomous agent to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent. Am I understanding what you are saying?