Ahhh. Are you one of those who believe that to have the Holy Spirit you must have tongues?
In which case absolutely nothing I can say will convince you...and why on earth are you posting in the non-Christian forum?
Quite frankly; you're wrong. I know I can't convince you, I;m not gonna try - only the Holy Spirit can do that...and by labeling things "must", "can" and "can't", you don't sound as if you'd listen if He was prodding you with a baseball bat. I know I can't sway you, but I will answer your last post...
BritGuy said:
Jesus doesn't change, neither does the covenant he set up, that's the nature of a covenant.
Wasn't talking about the covenant, or God, who is unchanging.
BritGuy said:
The tongues of fire was a one-off to show the transfer of God's presence to people, it marked the inauguration of the New Covenant, it occurred before the Spirit was given not after.
This helps prove my point. I'm not talking of tongues, but the prevalence of miracles in those days. As you say; these were the days of Jesus, the beginning of His church, and really? The miraclous things that happened then, do you honestly see them happening today? What of Phillip:
[39] And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. [40] But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
(Acts 8:39-40 ESV)
Do you really see that happening today? And btw the tongue of fire was the Holy Spirit...as He once appeared as a dove, this time He appeared as fire. “Fire” in the OT often indicates the presence of God, especially in His burning holiness and purity, consuming everything that is impure.
BritGuy said:
God has shown what he wants to give, if you are persuaded that he doesn't then that's not God changing his mind, and it doesn't glorify God to acept the alternative.
I accept that God is sovereign and that what He gives to one He may not give to another...and to say He must give to all what He gave to one is madness. He gave the disciples the gift of healing as well as the gift of tongues. Do you 'expect' to receive that as well? Perhaps its a twofer..."get two miraculous powers all for the price of salvation!". Can't you see how cheap you're making Christ's sacrifice. The gift of grace should always be more than we deserve...not something we take as granted and then expect more.
BritGuy said:
"Spiritual gifts" are only mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 and refer specifically to the meetings-use, *giving* to the church of attributes that all Christians have for private use.
Other passages show ALL Christians having and growing in all these attributes listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-onwards: wisdom, knowledge, faith...tongues...
To some extend these other passages talk in general of what all Christians should do, but they also talk specifics too:
[10] As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: [11] whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1 Peter 4:10-11 ESV)
Each one receives a gift, that which God wants them to achieve for Him, for His glory. Some receive gifts of 'speaking' - tongues, and some 'service'. And we know others exist thanks to 1 Cor.
[15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, [16] from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
(Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV)
Each different part of the body, working together, makes the body grow. This would suggest, yes, that each part of the body is not the same? If we were all arms not much would get done. With different spiritual gifts the Church moves forward for Jesus.
[6] Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; [7] if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; [8] the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
(Romans 12:6-8 ESV)
Pretty straight forward, I think. You think to lump a gift like "tongues" under the other things that Christians just need to do. You're talking of 'fruit'. Sure, the fruit of the Spirit is faith, kindness, love. And all Christians should strive to grow in knowledge, wisdom and pray daily for faith. But the above verses quite clearly tell us that some people receive some gifts and others, others. We are not all the same, and since we were made different by God, we should embrace that, not make people feel inferior in faith. When it is God Himself who hands out gifts, how can you say it's not enough, it's not the right gift? Who are you really saying 'not good enough' to then??
BritGuy said:
Has God doe away with all the gifts listed, or just the ones you personally haven't experienced?
I never claimed God has done away with gifts. And I never said that just because I don't have the gift of tongues that it doesn't exist. I think here you're just getting snarky. So, lets talk tongues, Hmm?
You have a go at me about the disciples speaking tongue's at Pentecost. I was summarizing for brevity, I apologize.
You say:
The disciples were speaking to God, others recognised real language but they were not being preached to.
So as to avoid the same mistake, I'll break it down. The disciples received the Holy Spirit and started talking in tongues (The word translated “tongues” (Gk. glōssa, plural) can also be translated “languages.), and men of different nations and languages heard them:
[11] ...both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” [12] And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”
(Acts 2:11-12 ESV)
Mighty works of God? And if these men understood them, the disciples were obviously speaking in earthly tongues. I understand that when on speaks to God in tongues, it is in a language that no one earthly understands expect perhaps the one God has granted the gift of interpreting). Lets look at some verses from 1 Corinthians...
[4] Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; [5] and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; [6] and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. [7] To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
(1 Corinthians 12:4-7 ESV)
Pretty simple...different gifts to different people...all to serve God.
[10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
(1 Corinthians 12:10 ESV)
That's interesting...various kinds of tongues.
[2] For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:2 ESV)
No one understands him? But the men at Pentecost understood the disciples. So we see that the "different kinds" of tongues is this: for missionary purposes, that other men may understand us when we tell them of God, and as a private prayer and praise language between the speaker and God.
So really, at Pentecost, the men were being preached to, they we incredulous because they knew the disciples to be Jews, and probably peasants as well...and yet suddenly here they were being multilingual!
[7] And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? [8] And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
(Acts 2:7-8 ESV)
Sure there were scoffers in the crowd...there always is! And plus, remember that the people of this city had just crucified the leader of these men, the disciples has just been in hiding! No doubt there were many (like Saul) who were still burning with anger and hate against followers of Jesus. So yes, Peter stood up and spoke to them, explained to them, preached to them.
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” ...[41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
(Acts 2:37, 41 ESV)
And it doesn't actually say what language Peter spoke in...I wouldn't be suprised if there were some there that didn't speak the 'common' language, and if that were the case I have no doubt that at such an important event, they would have heard him in their native tongue. That is speculation, but the rest of it....plain biblical truth.
BritGuy said:
God told the King of Israel to ask for a sign, he wouldn't sdso as God said, God gave one anyway
Again, you forget Matthew:
[39] But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
(Matthew 12:39 ESV)
You are trying to do away with one scripture by using another. What this tells us is this: God gives to one what He may not to another. We are to abide with what He chooses...He is God, He is sovereign, He is good and He is beyond wise. To seek a miracle or sign for our own benefit and not His is to be labeled 'an evil and adulterous generation'. Please don't be labeled that, please accept that if God wants you to have something He will give it to you. Stop desiring tongues and just pray that God give you something that you can serve Him with. If that be tongues, that will be what you get.
In which case absolutely nothing I can say will convince you...and why on earth are you posting in the non-Christian forum?
Quite frankly; you're wrong. I know I can't convince you, I;m not gonna try - only the Holy Spirit can do that...and by labeling things "must", "can" and "can't", you don't sound as if you'd listen if He was prodding you with a baseball bat. I know I can't sway you, but I will answer your last post...
BritGuy said:
Jesus doesn't change, neither does the covenant he set up, that's the nature of a covenant.
Wasn't talking about the covenant, or God, who is unchanging.
BritGuy said:
The tongues of fire was a one-off to show the transfer of God's presence to people, it marked the inauguration of the New Covenant, it occurred before the Spirit was given not after.
This helps prove my point. I'm not talking of tongues, but the prevalence of miracles in those days. As you say; these were the days of Jesus, the beginning of His church, and really? The miraclous things that happened then, do you honestly see them happening today? What of Phillip:
[39] And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. [40] But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
(Acts 8:39-40 ESV)
Do you really see that happening today? And btw the tongue of fire was the Holy Spirit...as He once appeared as a dove, this time He appeared as fire. “Fire” in the OT often indicates the presence of God, especially in His burning holiness and purity, consuming everything that is impure.
BritGuy said:
God has shown what he wants to give, if you are persuaded that he doesn't then that's not God changing his mind, and it doesn't glorify God to acept the alternative.
I accept that God is sovereign and that what He gives to one He may not give to another...and to say He must give to all what He gave to one is madness. He gave the disciples the gift of healing as well as the gift of tongues. Do you 'expect' to receive that as well? Perhaps its a twofer..."get two miraculous powers all for the price of salvation!". Can't you see how cheap you're making Christ's sacrifice. The gift of grace should always be more than we deserve...not something we take as granted and then expect more.
BritGuy said:
"Spiritual gifts" are only mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 and refer specifically to the meetings-use, *giving* to the church of attributes that all Christians have for private use.
Other passages show ALL Christians having and growing in all these attributes listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-onwards: wisdom, knowledge, faith...tongues...
To some extend these other passages talk in general of what all Christians should do, but they also talk specifics too:
[10] As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: [11] whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1 Peter 4:10-11 ESV)
Each one receives a gift, that which God wants them to achieve for Him, for His glory. Some receive gifts of 'speaking' - tongues, and some 'service'. And we know others exist thanks to 1 Cor.
[15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, [16] from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
(Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV)
Each different part of the body, working together, makes the body grow. This would suggest, yes, that each part of the body is not the same? If we were all arms not much would get done. With different spiritual gifts the Church moves forward for Jesus.
[6] Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; [7] if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; [8] the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
(Romans 12:6-8 ESV)
Pretty straight forward, I think. You think to lump a gift like "tongues" under the other things that Christians just need to do. You're talking of 'fruit'. Sure, the fruit of the Spirit is faith, kindness, love. And all Christians should strive to grow in knowledge, wisdom and pray daily for faith. But the above verses quite clearly tell us that some people receive some gifts and others, others. We are not all the same, and since we were made different by God, we should embrace that, not make people feel inferior in faith. When it is God Himself who hands out gifts, how can you say it's not enough, it's not the right gift? Who are you really saying 'not good enough' to then??
BritGuy said:
Has God doe away with all the gifts listed, or just the ones you personally haven't experienced?
I never claimed God has done away with gifts. And I never said that just because I don't have the gift of tongues that it doesn't exist. I think here you're just getting snarky. So, lets talk tongues, Hmm?
You have a go at me about the disciples speaking tongue's at Pentecost. I was summarizing for brevity, I apologize.
You say:
The disciples were speaking to God, others recognised real language but they were not being preached to.
So as to avoid the same mistake, I'll break it down. The disciples received the Holy Spirit and started talking in tongues (The word translated “tongues” (Gk. glōssa, plural) can also be translated “languages.), and men of different nations and languages heard them:
[11] ...both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” [12] And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”
(Acts 2:11-12 ESV)
Mighty works of God? And if these men understood them, the disciples were obviously speaking in earthly tongues. I understand that when on speaks to God in tongues, it is in a language that no one earthly understands expect perhaps the one God has granted the gift of interpreting). Lets look at some verses from 1 Corinthians...
[4] Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; [5] and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; [6] and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. [7] To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
(1 Corinthians 12:4-7 ESV)
Pretty simple...different gifts to different people...all to serve God.
[10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
(1 Corinthians 12:10 ESV)
That's interesting...various kinds of tongues.
[2] For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:2 ESV)
No one understands him? But the men at Pentecost understood the disciples. So we see that the "different kinds" of tongues is this: for missionary purposes, that other men may understand us when we tell them of God, and as a private prayer and praise language between the speaker and God.
So really, at Pentecost, the men were being preached to, they we incredulous because they knew the disciples to be Jews, and probably peasants as well...and yet suddenly here they were being multilingual!
[7] And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? [8] And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
(Acts 2:7-8 ESV)
Sure there were scoffers in the crowd...there always is! And plus, remember that the people of this city had just crucified the leader of these men, the disciples has just been in hiding! No doubt there were many (like Saul) who were still burning with anger and hate against followers of Jesus. So yes, Peter stood up and spoke to them, explained to them, preached to them.
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” ...[41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
(Acts 2:37, 41 ESV)
And it doesn't actually say what language Peter spoke in...I wouldn't be suprised if there were some there that didn't speak the 'common' language, and if that were the case I have no doubt that at such an important event, they would have heard him in their native tongue. That is speculation, but the rest of it....plain biblical truth.
BritGuy said:
God told the King of Israel to ask for a sign, he wouldn't sdso as God said, God gave one anyway
Again, you forget Matthew:
[39] But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
(Matthew 12:39 ESV)
You are trying to do away with one scripture by using another. What this tells us is this: God gives to one what He may not to another. We are to abide with what He chooses...He is God, He is sovereign, He is good and He is beyond wise. To seek a miracle or sign for our own benefit and not His is to be labeled 'an evil and adulterous generation'. Please don't be labeled that, please accept that if God wants you to have something He will give it to you. Stop desiring tongues and just pray that God give you something that you can serve Him with. If that be tongues, that will be what you get.
