“I will shew thee my faith by my works.“

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Helen

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Who do you feel you need to ''prove'' your faith to? If you are truly regenerated, then rest assure, Jesus already knows. Did Jesus not know whether or not Peter could walk on the water until AFTER He tried? And what about the part where he sinks, and Jesus has to yank him back up, and basically tells him he didn't have strong enough faith? Does this mean that he wasn't saved because he couldn't fully and truly prove his faith?

Agree...God does know the measure of our faith.... :)

It was Peter that he 'needed' to walk on water...it is US who need to to know the measure of our faith...
Same as the scripture that says- " Study to show thyself approved of God."

Our faith grows as it is exercised and we see more and more how Great our God is.

Jesus, God, Holy Spirit ..do not need any 'proof' of our faith...they already know.
 
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Nancy

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WORKS OF THE LAW DOES NOT EQUAL GOOD WORKS

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

Rom. 6:23 – this is why Paul says the “wages” of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.

Rom. 11:35 – it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do “works of the law” to obligate God. We are not in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.
Justification

“ergon nomou” (works of the law) and “ergois agathois”, (good works) are different words with different meanings and cannot be used interchangeably.

Very well put Epostle1,
Good scripture, and explained in a way my puny brain can understand, lol. You have just clarified my questions about those "seemingly" opposing verses. Thank you!
 

amadeus

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Nancy: It is very sad that you cannot accept the truth of Yahweh's Word! Shame, shame on you!
And Jesus, not Paul, said:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Matt 7:1-5

But if you prefer the OT:

"So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified." Esther 7:10
 
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Mjh29

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I need to prove my faith to God.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). If I have faith in God to provide my shelter, I do not know where I will sleep tomorrow night. If I have faith in God to provide my food and drink, I do not know where I will eat my next meal. For I am available to sleep and eat wherever He sends me.

If I have entered into a covenant for my shelter (a mortgage for example), can the Lord send me abroad for six months to witness for Him? Or have I made myself unavailable for His will because I have to honour my covenant with the world? By choosing sight instead of faith, I remove myself from the will of God. And if I am not in His will I cannot partake in the divine nature.

In answer to your question, I must prove my faith to God so that He can use me for His purpose.
I must disagree. By definition, God is all powerful, so if he really wants you to go abroad, then He will also provide the means for you to do so. I do agree that striving for good works is a great proof of the validity of ones faith, but as far as being necessary to prove your faith to God, I must disagree.
 
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Mayflower

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Who do you feel you need to ''prove'' your faith to? If you are truly regenerated, then rest assure, Jesus already knows. Did Jesus not know whether or not Peter could walk on the water until AFTER He tried? And what about the part where he sinks, and Jesus has to yank him back up, and basically tells him he didn't have strong enough faith? Does this mean that he wasn't saved because he couldn't fully and truly prove his faith?

Just the act of Peter trying to walk on water was an act of faith. God is Omniscient, so we don't need to prove our faith to Him. He fully knows what we can/will and cannot/won't do. But I also agree with Tru434, that what we do shows our faith. Like tithing before paying all the bills and everything, that is an act of faith that God will provide by putting Him first.

And when we show small acts of faith, God entrusts us with bigger things.
 
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Helen

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I need to prove my faith to God.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). If I have faith in God to provide my shelter, I do not know where I will sleep tomorrow night. If I have faith in God to provide my food and drink, I do not know where I will eat my next meal. For I am available to sleep and eat wherever He sends me.

If I have entered into a covenant for my shelter (a mortgage for example), can the Lord send me abroad for six months to witness for Him? Or have I made myself unavailable for His will because I have to honour my covenant with the world? By choosing sight instead of faith, I remove myself from the will of God. And if I am not in His will I cannot partake in the divine nature.

In answer to your question, I must prove my faith to God so that He can use me for His purpose.

Cannot agree.
In the N.T. The only thing we are called to "prove to God" is our hearts.
Do we really love God.

Love is the only proving to the new testament christians.
Love listens, love hears, love obey ....from the heart.

Faith without the Love Works...is void.
We can DO all kinds of 'good works' in our eyes...yet God is a heart specialist.. He measure the heart and it's responses.

Us, 'proving ourself to God' is just that...a whole lot of about us...
But, every thing is "all about Him."
 

Helen

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The works I'm talking about are the things we do in our lives which either substantiate or contradict the definition of faith. If I say I believe that it will be sunny all day, but then I take an umbrella out with me, what does that say about my faith? I am doubting my belief by my works. The same principle applies in our walk with the Lord: If I trust that God will provide my finance for a certain thing, but then I take out a bank loan, I am doubting by my works. My actions (works) prove that my faith is dead faith. I am a doubting, double-minded man. If we want to live in true faith we must trust God in all things, not doubting in words, thoughts or deeds.

..And THIS emphasizes my post above this one...#91

Your faith has become all about YOU!!!
It also sounds like a lot of presumption, which is not faith at all!!!!

What you have ended up with is ..."Faith in your faith.."
 

VictoryinJesus

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Cannot agree.
In the N.T. The only thing we are called to "prove to God" is our hearts.
Do we really love God.

Love is the only proving to the new testament christians.
Love listens, love hears, love obey ....from the heart.

And here is where I am so confused. How can we decide for another how God is exercising their faith for what is ahead for them in their walk with Him. How can we tell someone that if God is leading them into obedience with money, that it is wrong. Maybe there is a reason that only God knows and we as brethren should encourage. I don’t know. I doubt the voice I hear so often for this very reason because others may say it is wrong and it is not God. In the beginning God asked me for small acts of faith, that it seems have built over time. At one point kittens were running all over our basement and causing me distress tending to their needs every day. I could not let them go and find a home since I felt no one would take care of them as I can. If I could love people as much as I could love pets...God brought me to a place where I put a sign in the yard: free kittens. Within a day they all had homes. Now we are pet free except for one cat. Anyone else might say that is a waste of faith, but for me, God knew exactly what the next step to healing needed to be.
 

Helen

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And here is where I am so confused. How can we decide for another how God is exercising their faith for what is ahead for them in their walk with Him. How can we tell someone that if God is leading them into obedience with money, that it is wrong. Maybe there is a reason that only God knows and we as brethren should encourage. I don’t know. I doubt the voice I hear so often for this very reason because others may say it is wrong and it is not God. In the beginning God asked me for small acts of faith, that it seems have built over time. At one point kittens were running all over our basement and causing me distress tending to their needs every day. I could not let them go and find a home since I felt no one would take care of them as I can. If I could love people as much as I could love pets...God brought me to a place where I put a sign in the yard: free kittens. Within a day they all had homes. Now we are pet free except for one cat. Anyone else might say that is a waste of faith, but for me, God knew exactly what the next step to healing needed to be.

All I can answer you with is to say.
If you had seen all that I had seen 'said and done' in the name of faith...you may have a slight glimmer of where I am coming from.
Presumptuous 'faith' is a train wreck.
It is the person choosing what they want "to do for God" , and trying to force God to bless it.
In the post I responded to..the person said , QUOTE:- " If 'I' say it will be sunny today and 'I' take an umbrella.. what does that say about 'my' faith?"
And other things said in that post.

Sorry Victory...that is NOT faith, it is presumption.

"Faith cometh by HEARING and hearing by the word of GOD."
Faith does not come via a 'good idea'
A 'good idea' to go overseas for six month and "have faith" that God will cover the bills. That is not faith...unless God has said .."Hey, I want you to go overseas for six months. " That is totally different.

The poster did not mention that God said anything...the post only talked about his faith. Therefore I responded that he is talking about "faith in his own faith "
What has nothing to do with faith in God word to us.

Peter got out of the boat to walk...ONLY because he said to Jesus " Bid me to come to thee. And Jesus said "COME"..then and then only did Peter step out and walked on the water. We talk a lot about Peter sinking...but forget he walked on the water, sunk, but then re-fixed his eyes on Christ and WALKED to Jesus...

True Faith only comes via a COME...or a word from the Lord to walk upon.
The poster indicated none of this...but sound more interested in building up his faith in himself.

I will see if he shares what God has actually spoken for him to do, and his faith in following what God asked of him. Not some 'good idea' that he wishes to do , which he calls faith.
We will see how it unfolds.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Horders, which I am not...but most of the time they have lost so much they fear losing anything else. Faith is when they haul in a dumpster and begin letting go of what they find comfort in besides God. What faith!! What healing!!! No different from addiction. With food, drugs...for some it may be money. God leads each individual out of their wilderness, when we let Him.

Faith is not a one size-fits-all faith:

it is personal and a relationship with the only One that knows what each of us need. Why do we get so offended at anothers walk?
 

Helen

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There is a difference between biblical faith and common sense victories.

In Heb 11 all the hero's of Faith first heard God speak to them, then acted by doing what God had told them to do.
What people call "faith" when it was not God who spoke clearly for them to do.
Is just human common sense and breaking free of bad habits. The saved and the unsaved do that...
It is not Bible Faith ...any 'faith' that is in ourselves is not the God kind of faith. Faith is in GOD...not in what we do or don't do.
 

VictoryinJesus

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There is a difference between biblical faith and common sense victories.

In Heb 11 all the hero's of Faith first heard God speak to them, then acted by doing what God had told them to do.
What people call "faith" when it was not God who spoke clearly for them to do.
Is just human common sense and breaking free of bad habits. The saved and the unsaved do that...
It is not Bible Faith ...any 'faith' that is in ourselves is not the God kind of faith. Faith is in GOD...not in what we do or don't do.

Luke 18:21-23
[21] And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. [22] Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. [23] And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

It is a heart condition...Who knows the heart of a man better than God? Do you stand on any promises of God and call it “faith”?

We disagree. That is okay, ByGrace. Maybe I am not there yet. I do value your input and wisdom.
 
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brakelite

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I don't know why all the fuss over works and faith. Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing. So when I observe someone obeying God's commandments, like observing the Sabbath for example, I am absolutely not going to jump on that guy and pretend to know his heart by accusing him of trying to earn his way to heaven. If he is keeping Gods commandments, he is doing so by the grace and power of God, through faith. There is no other way to do such a thing. The same goes for folk who shun adultery, who are honest, don't lie, worship only one God, slow to anger, and are content with all things. Unbelievers cannot do those kind of works of obedience. They cannot do those works of righteousness. And why not? Because those without faith are at enmity with God, they cannot obey the law of God, because without faith or is impossible to please God. They obey God because they have faith. It is righteousness by faith. And it is the only true Christian walk.
KJV Romans 6
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


Far from obedience and works being a sign that a person is working for his salvation, they are in fact a sign that God is honouring their faith in him and he is empowering them to obey.
 

bbyrd009

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I doubt the voice I hear so often for this very reason because others may say it is wrong and it is not God.
imo it is obvious enough that if you are doing something like getting in debt for a house that is contrary to other Scripture, that is not the way God wants it done, regardless of what any others say? But you might have a more pointed example
 

H. Richard

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Is anyone interested in the truth? The book of James has many faults in it.

I will present A study on the book of James which show the FACTS that James got wrong that are obvious but they are not mentioned in the discussions using the book of James.
 
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bbyrd009

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Is anyone interested in the truth? The book of James has many faults in it.

I will present A study on the book of James which show the FACTS that James got wrong that are obvious but they are not mentioned in the discussions using the book of James.
imo you already have a few times before i guess? And it was crap then too bro.
the fault you are incorrectly attributing to Scripture is strictly operator error, ok? You are not qualified to read James yet, that's all.

now you might do yourself a favor and just keep believing whatever it is you believe, and don't go compounding your sin by attempting to prove Scripture wrong imo.
but bam do what you like ok
 
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Stranger

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Is anyone interested in the truth? The book of James has many faults in it.

I will present A study on the book of James which show the FACTS that James got wrong that are obvious but they are not mentioned in the discussions using the book of James.

This is a strange statement you make. The book of James has no faults as it is inspired by God. Just because you don't understand something in Scripture doesn't mean it has faults.

James got nothing wrong.

Stranger
 
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Enoch111

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And here is where I am so confused. How can we decide for another how God is exercising their faith for what is ahead for them in their walk with Him.
Who said that you have to "decide for another"? Your primary responsibility is to examine yourself and leave everything else to God.

There are also various degrees or "measures" of faith, and some also receive the spiritual gift of faith (which is different from saving faith and could be extraordinary faith): For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit...(1 Cor 12:8,9)

At the same time, Jesus said that if you have faith equivalent to a mustard seed (a very small seed) you can move mountains. So it would appear that it is not the amount of faith but the quality of faith which is in view.

But James says that if one claims to have saving faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption, the outward evidence must be manifested in good works, and in Abraham's case his faith was severely test. But every Christian's faith will also be tested, whether mildly or severely.
 

H. Richard

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This is a strange statement you make. The book of James has no faults as it is inspired by God. Just because you don't understand something in Scripture doesn't mean it has faults.

James got nothing wrong.

Stranger

***
You refuse to believe James when he wrote James 1:1. You refuse to see the obvious error that James made when he said God called Abraham righteous because he offered up his son when it is recorded in scripture that God called him righteous before his son was born, before Abraham had done any works. but the scripture do not agree with his statement. You just ignore that fact so you can use the book of James to put people under the Law.
 

Stranger

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You refuse to believe James when he wrote James 1:1. You refuse to see the obvious error that James made when he said God called Abraham righteous because he offered up his son when it is recorded in scripture that God called him righteous before his son was born, before Abraham had done any works. but the scripture do not agree with his statement. You just ignore that fact so you can use the book of James to put people under the Law.

The book of (James) is often used to put believers under law, but I am not one of them. I believe (James 1:1). James is clear in (2:23) that the offering of Isaac was the fulfillment of the righteousness that was imputed to Abraham when he believed God. (Gen. 15:6)

The exact same is true with Rahab also. (James 2:25) She was a believer first. (Joshua 2:9) She then hid the spies as a result. (2:1-24) Faith first, then works. There is no error here.

Stranger