Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes sir, he was God's spokesman so quite likely it was him, the Bible doesn't actually say.
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Yes sir, he was God's spokesman so quite likely it was him, the Bible doesn't actually say.
Yes it is Yahweh (Jehovah), who is saying that he existed before all of His creation, and he will always exist, and that he is the only almighty God and that there is no other almighty God but Him.
Not quite! The Revelation verses are referring to Jesus, who was the first of all God's creation, and he was also the last because everything else was created by Jesus. He was also the starter and finisher of God's creation. These verses are clearly not referring to Yahweh because it states "which was dead", which applies to Jesus but not Yahweh, who never changes:
(Mal 3:6) “For I, Yahweh, don’t change;
(Num 23:19) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent.
Jesus changed and became a man, and referred to himself as the "son of man" - so clearly Jesus was not Yahweh.
The Word (Jesus) was a god, but he wasn't almighty God Yahweh, although he was with Yahweh (God) in the beginning, and God performed His creation through Jesus. Which is why Paul refers to David's Psalm (45:7) when he said (Hebrews 1:8-9 WEB):
8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”
Clearly you are the one who lacks reading skills.
It is plain there in that scripture....in me, that is, in my flesh...
How you don't understand the plain meaning of that is beyond me.
God the Father took on an added nature of human flesh; and in this, who He essentially is, did not change. For God is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
The Word (Jesus) was God.
I can only pray for you that the Lord might open your eyes to this fact (and I will pray).
For, as it is, the following scriptures speak of your inherent blindness that keeps you from seeing this objective truth.
2Co 4:3, But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You actually believe that the "old man" that is "crucified with Christ", is your arms and legs.
Geez.
The price for the redemption of Adam's life is the penalty for sin applied to an equal substitute for Adam, i.e. it required the death of a perfect human being, not a spirit being hiding inside a human body (like demon possession?). As I mentioned, God cannot have done that because he does not change, and he was and is immortal so he cannot die.
If God "took an added nature of human flesh" in order to pay the redemption price, then why is that "added nature" still required after the redemption price was paid? Jesus already existed before the creation of the universe and mankind, for it was Jesus who did the creating according to God's plans, so it wasn't God taking an added nature - it was God that transformed Jesus' nature from spirit being to human being:
Philipians 2 (WEB)
5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.
9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
God tells us otherwise in His Scriptures. Jesus is plainly, many times, stated to be God's only begotten son. There are no passages supporting that Jesus was God in disguise, but there are many verses indicating that Jesus was not God e.g.:
Acts 5:31:
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
How can God exalt himself with his right hand? This does not make sense if Jesus is God, but does make sense if Jesus is God's son.
Acts 8:36,37:
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
In order to be baptised the eunuch had to believe that Jesus was the son of God, not that Jesus was God.
1 John 4:14:
We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
It does not make sense for God to send himself, it does make sense for him to send another being, in this case his son (remember John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life."?).
1 Tim 2:5:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Again we have a distinction between God and Jesus. If Jesus is the mediator between God and men, then how can Jesus be God?
Colossians 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may have the preeminence. {in...: or, among all}
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
1 Cor 8:6:
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Cor 11:3:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 John 4:9:
In this was revealed the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1 John 4:15:
Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5:
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Jesus' own words:
John 3:17-18 [NIV]:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Again, Jesus distinguishes between his father and himself. He is also saying that those who do not believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son
are condemned.
John 5 (ASV):
19) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.
20) For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel.
21) For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.
22) For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;
23) that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him.
24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.
26) For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
27) and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28) Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29) and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
30) I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
This makes it quite plain that Jesus is not God.
John 8:
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness concerning myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness concerning me.
This can only be a valid thing for Jesus to say if he and God are two separate persons, otherwise there are not two witnesses.
John 8:
28 Then said Jesus to them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 20:21:
... as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jesus can only send his disciples "as his father sent him" (i.e. in a like manner) if Jesus was sent by somebody other than himself, therefore Jesus is not God.
John 8:42:
Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Mark 13:32:
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the father.
If Jesus is God then he would have known this information. Note that after his resurrection God exalted him to a higher position than he had before, and also revealed to him more of His plan and of the timing. Jesus then revealed some of this information to his disciple John; this is the book of Revelation.
Luke 24:49:
.. I send the promise of my Father upon you;
Clearly states that Jesus has a father (Yahweh).
John 5:43:
I am come in my Father's name,
Ditto.
John 12:50:
... whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
This implies a communication between Jesus and his father, Yahweh, and that Jesus was following orders. This communication would not be necessary if Jesus was Yahweh, and contradicts the Trinitarian view that Jesus and Yahweh are equal.
John 14:28:
If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Very clearly states that Jesus and Yahweh are not equal. Also if Jesus is going unto the Father then this clearly implies a separation from the Father and that Jesus is not the Father.
John 20:17:
... I ascend unto my Father, and your father; and to my God, and your God.
If Yahweh is Jesus' God and father then Jesus cannot be God.
John 17:3:
And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Etc., etc..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
That was not a spokesman in the bush it was god himself,
when moses asked him his name he literally said, I I am (I have always existed)
when the Pharisees praised Abraham, Jesus used the same words, when he said before Abraham was , I I am (I always existed)
that’s why they fell back and picked up stones to stone him, to them he committed blasphemy by claiming to be God .
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Actually sir, the account you were speaking about is found in Exodus chap 3, and it clearly states that it was an angel of Jehovah who appeared to Moses verse 2
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes, the angel of God is a Name given to the second person of the trinity, he has many names. Ie, son of God son of man, angel of God, lord God of Israel etc etc.
however, the angel of God was not a created being, he was with God before time began, and through him and for him was all things created,
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Jesus is God's son sir, created by Jehovah exclusively, begotten. Begotten means to have offspring. Jesus is referred to as the only-begotten son, why? Because Jesus was the first creation that Jehovah made, nothing else existed, therefore he was made exclusively by Jehovah's hands. Rev 3:14 states point blank he was the beginning of the creation of God. He is called the firstborn of all creation Col 1:15. The time beginning you referred to is speaking of the creation. In the beginning of Jn 1:1 is speaking about the start of God's creation.
God was not begotten, and the Bible does not teach that Jehovah is a 3 in 1 being.
You asked a good question on the other thread. You do need to know Who Jesus is.
Jesus is YHWH.
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Excuse me sir.
But Jesus was before Abraham.
He could not be before abraham unless he existed thousands of years before he entered the body bore by Mary
God was manifested in the Flesh to destroy the works of the devil.
He did.
Redemption has come.
John 3:16
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes sir that is very true, matter of fact he was asked that point blank and his answer was:
(John 8:58) 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
Good call sir.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Thanks for you post Marks, need to point out however that Jehovah is YHWH, Jesus is His son. Confusion about that was escalated when translators tried to remove YHWH's name from the Bible. A great example to research to see the difference and alteration from the translators is found at Psalms 110:1 which refers to both Jehovah as well as Jesus, yet calls them both Lord. Notice however that most versions which omit God's name capitalize all the letters (LORD) where YHWH is and the second Lord which is Adonai originally only capitalizes the first letter L. Ps 110:1; Jn 3:16
Hope that helps
In John 3:16 Jesus says that God "gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Paul confirms it in Romans 8:3 (WEB):
For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;
It was not God (Yahweh) who came in human form, it was his only begotten son. Jesus said:
(John 14:7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(John 15:24) If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
This is why people say God was manifested in the flesh, because Jesus claimed that his character and personality, etc. was very similar to his father's (God's), and because he did God's will and spoke the words that God told him to speak. But he was not God, and it's important to realise that:
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV):
1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
It is Jesus, the Messiah, the only begotten son of God, who came in human form - not God.
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I think there is a much more to the confusion.
Jesus is actually YHWH.
This is Who met with Abraham. This is Who will stand upon the mount of olives when it splits in two. It's Jesus!
Hebrews 1:8 KJV
8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
I'm not interested in debating this if your mind is made up, but if you'd like to explore the Scriptures that show us the Deity of the Son of God, I'd be happy to.
Much love!
God was manifested in the Flesh, Virgin Born.
And in John 1:10 we are told that Jesus made the World.
Colossians 1:16 says that Jesus made EVERYTHING, and not only that, but everything that exists, is underpinned and sustained by the Power of Christ.
Now....Think of this..
When Jesus was first learning to stand up and walk, as a child, His little feet were touching the world He Created, as God the "Word".
If you are born again, then its because the Spirit of God, who is Christ the Lord, has birthed your dead spirit as ALIVE "In Christ".
Only GOD can cause a dead spirit to be made alive, and only God can cause you to be "made Righteous'"
Jesus is "Emmanuel"......He is indeed "God with us", and in fact is GOD inside all the born again.
