22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[jeffweeder]

61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,

In fact, that’s not even a few verses apart like the ones we’re discussing but is happening in one sentence. Thousands of years jump within one sentence!

Not a thousand year jump at all . Vengeance began to fall within the same generation, when the temple fell in 70 AD etc.


lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it, 22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not a thousand year jump at all . Vengeance began to fall within the same generation, when the temple fell in 70 AD etc.


lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it, 22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

I can see a shadow at least, of what is coming on the whole world. That’s about all I can say about it. I just see it differently.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

By the way, is your Caps lock key stuck?

lol! He probably has a cat…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In fairness, the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. Don't you think it's a good idea to try to research what the Hebrew words mean whenever possible in order to aid our understanding?

Mmm…He can teach me in my own language I think. He has so far anyway. But like I said, I did go to the Hebrew thingy(don’t know exactly what it’s called) to look up the rest of the verse, and it said this:
For
The child
Old
A hundred
Years
Shall die

So I’m not saying no one should look at it. It did confirm for me what I already thought I saw in it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Imagine if I tried to tell you that Revelation 21:2-7 is not about the new heavens and new earth. Be honest here. What would you think?

If you said that I would think you were wrong. I don’t see any jumping within those verses and see nothing that doesn’t fit with NHNE

 

[Timtofly]

So, they do learn war again? Your doctrine is so contradictory at every turn. It simply doesn't add up.

Not "again". "Again" is your misinterpretation.

 

[jeffweeder]

I can see a shadow at least, of what is coming on the whole world. That’s about all I can say about it. I just see it differently.

Thankyou.
Duet 28 may be helpful and apply to the vengeance that has come upon Israel since 70AD.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no record of death on the new earth for the elect in the original Hebrew; only for the wicked who are experiencing eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire. Here is a notable difference between Amil and Premil, Amils believe the wicked are all judged when Jesus comes and banished into a lost eternity, Premil on the other hand (amazingly) rewards the wicked at the end (especially those who fight against Jerusalem at the end) by allowing them to inherit the new earth. The gorge between these two views couldn't be further.

This is slander. No one teaches God rewards the wicked. Do you not understand Revelation 20:4?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How would you estimate "the sand of the sea" then?

to say the army is like the sand of the sea (to me) is to say it’s a pretty large army.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is slander. No one teaches God rewards the wicked. Do you not understand Revelation 20:4?

Premill teaches that Tim , as the unrepentant somehow remain alive at the Lords coming for a 1000 years. They are not of the Faith to be glorified at his coming , yet they do not perish but survive for a thousand years =ridiculous.
Repent or perish is the Lords teaching , yet premill introduces some middle ground at his coming.

 

[Timtofly]

You totally misunderstood what I said.

What I am saying is that those animals were described as enemies of Israel in the bible. Now since the first advent the Jews and Gentiles (the lion, leopard, Wolfe and the sheep) now live peacefully together within the church. We are now all sheep that our Shepard made into one flock.

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

I understand that you think the Lion and wolf get converted and become the church. But the verse never claims they are converted. The symbolism is peace on earth, not the whole earth was converted. That borders on universalism.

Yet you reject that at the Second Coming this sheep fold is recognized to then enjoy a 1,000 year reign. After being lost for thousands of years, you give them no time to then enjoy earth as it should be.

 

[Timtofly]

I have no idea of what you're saying here. Are you denying that Revelation 12 refers to the birth and ascension of Christ, which obviously did not occur after the seventh trumpet? My point had to do with the fact that what is described in Revelation 12 does not follow what is described at the end of Revelation 11. Do you disagree with that? If not, then are you just arguing for the sake of arguing here?

Just because 12 does not follow 11 chronologically, does not mean every other single chapter in Revelation does that. You are basing your whole chronology on chapters 11 and 12. Because every time a poster states chronology, all you have to offer is: "Well chapter 11 and 12 don't". Has it not occured to you that chapter 12 is the only chapter that goes back to the birth of Jesus?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, of course. Did you think I was saying otherwise? If so, I'll re-read what I posted to see if I wasn't being clear.

You have to reinterpret your paradigm if you claim these verses are future. You declare all authority, but oops, there is that 7th Trumpet declaration that does not fit all authority until a certain point in time. So those verses are not challenging the authority of Christ, it is referring to the subjection of all kingdoms to that authority. Still does not negate that Jesus will rule over all nations from Jerusalem. That is God's Word that you toss into the scrap bin. Jesus as King will set up a throne in current Jerusalem, and you will never be able to refute that point. The 7th Trumpet is declaring that all kingdoms are now fully submitted. If you think they are currently submitted, how, if many are in open rebellion? Has it stopped raining for months in every nation?

 

[Timtofly]

It talks about the ones previously mentioned in verses 17-18 as being killed and it talks about the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire. That seems like a logical conclusion to Revelation 19. Only someone with doctrinal bias would think otherwise.

Also the result of what happened to the dragon that was with the FP and the beast. The symbolism is wrapped up about the dragon, by declaring, that old serpent, the devil, and Satan. The other two were cast into the LOF, but Satan was bound up allowed to not do a single thing for another 1,000 years. Do you really think Satan is thrown into the LOF at the same time as the other two?

 

[Marty fox]

I understand that you think the Lion and wolf get converted and become the church. But the verse never claims they are converted. The symbolism is peace on earth, not the whole earth was converted. That borders on universalism.

Yet you reject that at the Second Coming this sheep fold is recognized to then enjoy a 1,000 year reign. After being lost for thousands of years, you give them no time to then enjoy earth as it should be.

I have never said that all the lions wolves ect are converted only some of them are thus they are apart of the church

Why enjoy the thousand years to have it all fall apart at the end when we will enjoy eternity forever?

 

[Timtofly]

This passage indicates that He reigns now and will continue to reign up until His second coming after which comes the end when He delivers the kingdom that He currently reigns over to the Father. Notice in verse 27 that it says the Father has put all things under His feet with the exception of the Father Himself. Then in verse 28 it says "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him".

No it does not. The reigning is after the Second Coming in this verse.

1. The Cross, the OT firstfruits.

2. The Second Coming the church alive on earth.

3. Then the end, AFTER Jesus the King has ruled, after the Second Coming for 1,000 years. These points are not about the rule and reign of Christ. It is about humanity gathered and presented to God.

There is literally 1992 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. John in Revelation 20 gives us the time frame of between the Second Coming and the end: 1,000 years.

If you reject the 1,000 years then you have to reject the 1992 years also implied in that verse.

Your eschatological bias denies any time relative to those verses. Jesus hands back a full kingdom with billions of souls and a perfect creation. Explain that in your "everything burned to a crisp" scenario. Obviously a new heaven and earth have to be created to hand back to God, not a burnt offering sin sacrifice. If you acknowledge the new heaven and earth part, why not a 1,000 year reign with 10's of billions of humans?

You deny any OT firstfruits. You only have those raptured, and you deny a 1,000 year reign. You have literally only millions of humans, while Paul explains all of the OT redeemed were presented to God in 30AD, millions at the Second Coming, and 10's of billions at the end.

 

[Marty fox]

20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

people will bear children too. That’s another one. But then, I’m sure bearing children somehow doesn’t mean bearing children…

This is talking about the new heaven and new earth it’s our future heaven that’s the “it” in verse 20.

There’s no more death in it because they are in heaven. The ones that die are considered acursed because they spiritually died and are in hell.

Do you see how the verse you left out verse 17 is the exact same event as revelation 21:1?

 

[WPM]

I didn’t understand it any of the times you posted and reposted it, I guess because I speak English and not Hebrew, that’s why I didn’t respond. But I DID post the rest of the verse somewhere, to which I didn’t get a reply from anyone to my recollection. You covered the first of the verse in Hebrew, (which as I said didn’t make any sense to me), but not the rest of the verse. Not that it would have helped if you did because I read and speak in English.

So, I looked it up myself in that Hebrew thingy you used and it said:
For
The child
Old
A hundred
Years
Shall die


but…you know, I just like to read in my own language

Check posts #971 and #978 and you will see how I addressed all that. You are obviously not diligently engaging in the discussion.

 

[WPM]

Nope. I never said the prophecy jumped at the very next verse, verse 18. The only thing I’m certain about is that at least by verse 20, a jump backwards has occurred because I do not think there will be any death at all on the NHNE. I even got into a let’s suppose discussion about the no crying heard by others as to if it could be where the jump occurs when I don’t clearly see a jump until verse 20.
So that’s what I’m focused on - not on supposing but rather on what I DO clearly see.

Yes, according to your fixated Premil approach to the inspired text. Not according to sound biblical hermeneutics. You add unto Scripture forcing some imaginary future millennium into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is typical Premil eisegesis. That is because it has no corroboration for its mistaken interpretation of Revelation 20 and there is nothing in Revelation 20 that correlates with this.

 

[WPM]

It happens. It’s prophecy. It goes forward and back and has gaps of time even though it’s not announced to us when it happens. For instance like here:
61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,

In fact, that’s not even a few verses apart like the ones we’re discussing but is happening in one sentence. Thousands of years jump within one sentence!
Prophecy just does this in many places.

With this type of ad-hoc approach to Bible interpretation you could make the Bible say anything you wish. It is so wrong!