A Common Error

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H. Richard

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This is a strawman argument and shows you are not really getting the right bearing on this issue.

How can you claim that we Gentiles are more powerful in grace and truth than the early apostles who are all Jewish. Your argument is backwards.

But if you mean that God requires less from Gentiles than from the original people of God...then you are surely among the confused religious people of this generation.

God expects MORE from us
If we don't produce the fruit of Christ...the holy eternal kind...we will also be rejected.

We are to fear, not boast by making false and empty claims.

We can begin by avoiding the wrath of God...by humbling ourselves and see that the Spirit makes us FULLY responsible for every thought and deed.

We will be judged harder...held to a higher standard...than the world because we have received grace.

I tend to wonder , with all the ignorance about spiritual things...just how many people have actually met the Lord.

So you have met the Lord. Where did that happen? Are you saying you have physically met the Lord face to face and talked to him?
 

Episkopos

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Okay, so to you I am ignorant of the power of God. No, I don't believe Jesus has established a religion where some think they do not sin in the flesh any longer because they have the power to not sin. Salvation under grace is for everyone including the ungodly. But you will deny this even though the scriptures tell us about it.

You are reducing a spiritual walk to a religious way of thinking...because that is all you understand at this point.

But do you think all the miracles you read about in Acts...are just people thinking there are miracles....miracles that are made up?

People who have not walked in the miraculous power of a new life in Christ...will opt for powerless doctrines from men based on a bad reading of Paul...which Peter warns us about.

The religion is from they who read the bible and formulate a powerless interpretation that denies the power of grace over sin.

The ungodly are not under grace. Again this proves you are not understanding what Paul is talking about.

God justifies the ungodly. But the grace of God makes you walk with Jesus. Such a person is no longer ungodly.

To claim a sinful holiness...or an ungodly grace...is just a typical kind of reasoning that completely perverts the gospel message.

The fact that so many opt for a man-made interpretation of this kind of subversion...is a sign of the times.
 

Episkopos

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So you have met the Lord. Where did that happen? Are you saying you have physically met the Lord face to face and talked to him?


The word also instructs me who to reveal intimate things to and who not to.

Suffice it to say that I have had the same kind of intimate encounters with the Lord as we read about in the bible. I have met the Lord and walked with Him in Zion. And much more besides that. When I was a young disciple, I thought all Christians had that kind of friendship with God. How wrong I was... wow. Quite the opposite.

Without the direct calling of Jesus to follow Him...I would never have presumed to think myself into the biblical narrative. I really don't understand why people seek to justify themselves in their reading of the bible....and without ANY evidence that they are walking in the Spirit as Jesus and Paul did.
 

justbyfaith

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The truth of God's word is, in many places in scripture, said to be "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile."
 
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justbyfaith

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The law is not to be ignored or rejected, nor should we fail to preach it in the church today.

It is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ, showing them their sin (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:20, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)) so that they will more willingly come to the Saviour for redemption from sin (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14).
 

H. Richard

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The word also instructs me who to reveal intimate things to and who not to.

Suffice it to say that I have had the same kind of intimate encounters with the Lord as we read about in the bible. I have met the Lord and walked with Him in Zion. And much more besides that. When I was a young disciple, I thought all Christians had that kind of friendship with God. How wrong I was... wow. Quite the opposite.

Without the direct calling of Jesus to follow Him...I would never have presumed to think myself into the biblical narrative. I really don't understand why people seek to justify themselves in their reading of the bible....and without ANY evidence that they are walking in the Spirit as Jesus and Paul did.

I don't believe you.

You surely think you are way out there don't you. You are a gift to the forum and your knowledge of God is superior to all others.

You are all wrapped up in yourself and I think it is time for me to put you on my do not respond list.

It says that in the last days many will claim to be the Christ. Are you there yet?
 

Episkopos

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I don't believe you.

You surely think you are way out there don't you. You are a gift to the forum and your knowledge of God is superior to all others.

You are all wrapped up in yourself and I think it is time for me to put you on my do not respond list.

It says that in the last days many will claim to be the Christ. Are you there yet?


This is why we should not respond to mockers. Religious mockers at that. Please put me on your ignore list.

Imagine being so out of touch as to compare knowing Christ...which all Christians should...to claiming to BE Christ. (As if only Christ can encounter Christ).

Such a lame argument for unbelief is typical in my experience in trying to help religious unbelievers.
 

Helen

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Are you saying that Paul was given a unique and separate gospel from what Jesus preached...that was to be directed towards the Gentiles as H. Richard is proposing?

I am a bit mystified why you separate Jesus Christ from what Paul preached.
Paul got it from Jesus Christ...Paul was preaching " Christ and Him crucified.." Paul preach what Christ told him to preach.
Yet you seem to have Jesus Christ in one corner and Paul in the other. ...you separate them...Why?

Paul also says that he was taken up into heaven , and heard some things which he was told he could not utter....but what about the things that Christ Jesus told him to utter?
 
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Helen

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The problems in the modern church stem in large part from the lowering of the standard of Christ by the introduction of damnable heresies....such as you are presently espousing. I'm not sure if you are following this thread correctly. But the person you are agreeing with is at the outer extremes of what is called...cheap grace.

Cheap grace puts the responsibility for sins on God. In this scheme people, because of grace, are no longer held responsible for their own sinful actions.

But the truth cries out against this outrage and perversion of truth. God will judge they who preach this "other" gospel very severely. This is precisely what Paul was warning us about.

Oh come on.."says you".
You are entitled to your Opinion, just as everyone else is.
We are each standing or falling, before our own master , to whom we are answerable. The day will reveal it.
Just as you believe I am wrong...I too believe you are not right and you are missing things....much!!
 

justbyfaith

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"Greasy grace"..."sloppy agape"...some people are like :mad: because of it. I am more like :eek:o_O:confused::oops:.
 

Ac28

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Paul preached the Kingdom Gospel, the same that Christ preached, and the same as the 12 preached, to the Jews throughout Acts. He preached the same Kingdom Gospel to the Gentiles for about his first 9 years. Then, considering the results of the meeting in Acts 15, he started preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God, only to the Gentiles. He called this my Gospel. This was the same Kingdom Gospel, with the added difference that the Gentiles could partake of certain of Israel's blessings without having to keep the Law (the Grace part), although they were given 4 ordinances they had to keep, throughout the rest of Acts. At some point, it seems that Paul started preaching his Gospel of Salvation, as found in 1Cor 15:1-4, to a select few. The church in Acts was all-Israel, since the Gentiles were grafted into Israel and were, thus, part of Israel.

Of course, all this went by the wayside when Israel and everything associated with Israel was set aside in Acts 28:28 - EVERYTHING from Acts is GONE! Then, after Acts, Paul was given special revelation from Christ (Ephesians 3:3) to start an all-Gentile Church, whose Hope is the Heaven of Heavens, located above the starry Heavens, where Christ sits at the right hand of God (Ephesians 1:20, Ephesians 2:6). This present day Church is found ONLY in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts. The Gospel today is one of Pure Grace, unlike Acts where is was of partial Grace. It is Paul's Gospel of Salvation in 1Cor 15:1-4, but with no strings attached. No ordinances. No Law, No Covenants - PURE UNDILUTED GRACE. Absolutely NO association with Israel, since there is no Israel. Any Jew today must essentially become a Gentile (which they are today, in God's eyes) and believe in the Gospel of Salvation in 1Cor 15:1-4, just like us..

No one else, no Jew, in the other 59 books, EVER had a hope of the highest Heaven. Their Best Hope was the New Jerusalem, which certainly isn't Heaven.
 
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justbyfaith

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Actually, in Romans 11, the Gentiles must be graffed into the cultivated olive tree which is Israel.

That is what the church is...Israel as it is composed of Jew and Gentile...Gentiles graffed into the cultivated olive tree which is Israel or the true church.

I hate to say it, but now you have me thinking that Replacement Theology is correct to a certain extent...

However I would say that there are promises given to Israel that apply specifically to the seed of Jacob but not the church.
 

Ac28

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From what I understand, it was common to graft wild olive branches into an old olive tree that was no longer bearing fruit. If all went well, the old olive tree would start bearing fruit, but the wild branches did not bear fruit from this process.

I surely don't believe in replacement theology. This last 1000 years is God's way of filling his Highest Heaven abode with saved Gentiles, without the interference of the nation Israel. Israel will be back in full glory and all the prophecies will once again start to be fulfilled, in about 2064. It will be like this present 2000 years didn't even happen, as far as prophecy is concerned.

The church today has nothing to do with Israel and the church certainly is not Israel, or visa versa. That would totally alter the prophetical system of the OT. The Jews and Gentiles are now equals, in that they both have to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to get saved. In that way, they are the same and the Jews are just another Gentile nation, in God's eyes. This will stop abruptly when the 2000 year period is over in about 2064. At that point, Jews and Gentiles (Earthly vs Heavenly peoples) will be 100% separate again, at least until God is All in All..
 
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justbyfaith

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Gentiles graffed into the cultivated olive tree would not fail to bear fruit, impaho.
 

mjrhealth

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The word also instructs me who to reveal intimate things to and who not to.

Suffice it to say that I have had the same kind of intimate encounters with the Lord as we read about in the bible. I have met the Lord and walked with Him in Zion. And much more besides that. When I was a young disciple, I thought all Christians had that kind of friendship with God. How wrong I was... wow. Quite the opposite.

Without the direct calling of Jesus to follow Him...I would never have presumed to think myself into the biblical narrative. I really don't understand why people seek to justify themselves in their reading of the bible....and without ANY evidence that they are walking in the Spirit as Jesus and Paul did.
You are not the only one, I know of others.
 

mjrhealth

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Acts 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Again what are teh 4. We only have one.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Because God is love, we didnt come to Christ by teh law, but grace.
 

Ac28

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Gentiles graffed into the cultivated olive tree would not fail to bear fruit, impaho.
Your humble opinion is wrong. What I said is true. The wild olive branch bears no fruit. I have a quote somewhere from an ancient horticulture book (scroll) that verifies this. It was said to be against nature in Romans 11:24 . Also, remember that ONLY Israel had the service of God (Romans 9:4). The gentiles couldn't teach or preach or enter into the services at all..
 
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Ac28

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Again what are teh 4. We only have one.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Because God is love, we didnt come to Christ by teh law, but grace.

Your quotes have absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. This has nothing to do with coming to Christ or Salvation. I'm talking about what the Gentiles HAD TO DO, in Acts, to be grafted into the all-Jewish church. They were given 4 ordinances, The Judaisers wanted them to keep the whole law, but they were voted down at the meeting in Acts 15. These 4 were probably those that would insult the Jews the most, if the Gentiles did them.
(1) Abstain from pollutions of idols
(2) And from fornication
(3) And from things strangled
(4) And from blood.
 
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