A Discussion About Truth

[BarneyFife]

Hi, Aunty

Well, my thoughts are that we’ve got an uphill climb ahead of us. I’m itching to further support my (admittedly historicist) view of Revelation 12 but I just ain’t a’ gonna do it because I’m determined not to turn this thing into a debate.

So, I guess I’ll say a few things about Eden and managing free will. And maybe even a little Christology.

I believe Adam and Eve were warned about the serpent beforehand since God never does anything big unless he reveals it to His prophets (which in this case would have been angels or Christ Himself).

I believe (@bbyrd009;)) that Adam and Eve unwisely allowed themselves to separate and that when they did, the trouble began. The devil was “subtil” (read: sharper than Eve alone) and tempted her to reason with him which, if Adam had been by her side, they would have together rejected outright but, as the story goes, she humored the serpent and was deceived. We look back on the exchange and think: “I would never have fallen for that. He started right out by lying unabashedly—Hath God said ye shall not eat of every tree in the garden?—Give me a break.” She was innocent, yet naive, and it cost us all.

Genesis 3
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. ​

Then, of course, she was led to allow a distortion of the character of God to invade her reasoning (Why would God forbid such lovely fruit?) which is exactly how sin was conceived in Heaven and has so often occurred throughout the ages.

Notice how closely the adversary’s counterfeit wisdom resembles the genuine:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (Genesis 3:22)​

Such is the enemy’s deceptive practice in all ages.

Of course, Adam sinned because he could not bear the thought of being separated from his wife. But just as God had said, at the very moment they ate of the tree, their cells began a process of dying ever so slightly faster than they could regenerate. They were indeed dying. And just as a day with God is as a thousand years, they succumbed to the sentence of their crime before the day with God was out.

The management of free will must be surrendered to God completely, because only under His governance can we be truly free to do right.

Righteousness has always been by faith. We will have no different nature than did Adam and Eve in the garden. And their perfect sinless nature failed, as did that of Lucifer and his host of rebels.

So how shall we keep ourselves from sinning in Heaven and the world made new?

When Satan is destroyed, there will be no one to tempt with evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated, and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in Heaven. The wonderful significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ?

The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded against apostasy. Without the cross, they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security on earth or in Heaven must look to the Lamb of God.

The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come.

We do not comprehend the value of the atonement. If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in His beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of His law, and still save the transgressor. The theme of redemption is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed on the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin.

Much has been made of theologians about the question as to whether Christ’s human nature was that of man before the fall, or after. Too much has been made of it, in fact. The concern has been that if He had the pre-fall nature, then He would have an advantage that would disqualify Him as our Substitute in the atonement. But like with so many other subjects over which finite beings love to contend, this is a non-issue. If Christ had the same human nature that Adam had, what advantage would it give Him?

Adam failed.

What do you think, Aunty?

............................@Aunty Jane

 

[Aunty Jane]

Kinda sounds like failure, doesn't it?

The Reformation accomplished what was needed at the time. It broke the power of the Roman church, and it put God’s word into the hands of the people to translate and read for themselves. Like the ancient Be·roeʹans who consulted the scriptures to check whether the apostles were sticking to God’s word. (Acts 17:10) They were commended for doing so.

But fallen human nature got the better of men and they took people off on many different paths according to the teachings of individuals who convinced them that they alone had the truth.
The only way to tell is to compare what they believe with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and strict adherence to all that he commanded his disciples to do. We see in Christendom a propensity to pick and choose what is convenient whilst ignoring the inconvenient things.

What are some ways in which Christendom’s adherents fail to uphold the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Becoming involved with the world and its dirty politics, when Jesus told us not to be. (John 17:16; John 18:36)
Who is identified as the "god" and "ruler" of this world? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) It's satan the devil, who admitted that "all the kingdoms of the world" had been "delivered" to him and that he could 'give rulership to whomever he wished'. (Luke 4:5-8) Jesus did not deny that. Nor would it have been a temptation if these kingdoms were not satan's to give.

So if "all the kingdoms of the world" are under the control of God's adversary, why would we give even tacit support to them and their wicked agendas? Politics was something Jesus stayed right away from, despite the fact that his people were oppressed by the Romans who occupied their land.
Jesus warned his disciples....
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."

Those who meddle in this world affairs and support the agendas of their political leaders are actually working against God's purpose. There is only one solution to mankind's troubles, and this world does not promote it, but rather perpetuates and adds to the existing dilemmas. When we pray for God's kingdom to "come" we are praying for the real solution to all of mankind's woes. The sad part is that most people who identify as "Christians" do not know what God's Kingdom is in reality. Daniel 2:44 brings it into focus because it speaks about the present world rulers. Soon now God will deal with all who oppose his kingdom by supporting man's inept and wicked rulership....those who do so, "do not know the one who sent [Jesus]."

If we support the bloodshed in political wars and power mongering, it means that we have sold out to the devil and we ourselves have blood on our hands and God will not hear our prayers. (Isaiah 1:15) Where are Christendom's clergy in times of conflict? More often than not they are right there on the front line, wickedly salving troubled consciences. There is no sanction from God in what they are doing.
Jesus advocated neutrality....not taking sides, whist at the same time being law-abiding citizens of whatever nation we find ourselves in. In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems.....deception is all around us, because our emotions and sensibilities are being manipulated to support satan's rulership, not God's. Its time to 'wake up'....(Romans 13:11-12)

Even if we do not practice wickedness ourselves, giving support to those who do will make us complicit.
Romans 1:28-32...
"Just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting. 29 And they were filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, schemers of what is harmful, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, and merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God—that those practicing such things are deserving of death—they not only keep on doing them but also approve of those practicing them."

One other glaring failure is in "the great commission"...that is in the preaching of God's Kingdom, which Jesus said would be done as part of the "sign of his presence" (Matthew 24:14) and that he said would be accomplished "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" of the present world system. It wasn't a recommendation, but a command....
"Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

If you are a disciple of Christ then you are under obligation to fulfill this command. It wasn't just given to the apostles. because all of them were dead before the end of the first century.....all of Christ's disciples have this commission as it was to be accomplished till God brings the curtain down on satan's world forever. It's not someone else's job. (Matthew 10:11-14)

Over to you.....:)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry Qo I didn't see this reply before I posted the other one....

I find a good deal of agreement in this one actually....

I believe Adam and Eve were warned about the serpent beforehand since God never does anything big unless he reveals it to His prophets (which in this case would have been angels or Christ Himself).

If they had been warned, then I believe that the woman would not have been so easily led. These tests often come out of nowhere and the value of obedience was stressed by the penalty. They knew what death meant. Satan not only lied, but he took away the penalty in the woman's mind. She ate and she didn't die right away....so maybe presumed that the serpent was right....then offered some to he husband.

Now, being a cherub in the garden was a position of responsibility and we know that angels can materialize on occasion, so the Bible does not say if his presence was visible or not.....but he most certainly manifested himself as a serpent, which may have caught her off guard? Did she know that snakes couldn't talk?

When God evicted them from the garden, "the flaming blade of a sword" and "cherub" were posted to "guard the way to the tree of life" so that fallen humanity would not live forever. (Genesis 3:22-24)

I believe (@bbyrd009;)) that Adam and Eve unwisely allowed themselves to separate and that when they did, the trouble began. The devil was “subtil” (read: sharper than Eve alone) and tempted her to reason with him which, if Adam had been by her side, they would have together rejected outright but, as the story goes, she humored the serpent and was deceived. We look back on the exchange and think: “I would never have fallen for that. He started right out by lying unabashedly—Hath God said ye shall not eat of every tree in the garden?—Give me a break.” She was innocent, yet naive, and it cost us all.

If Adam and his wife were warned about the serpent, then I assume that he would have stayed with her at all times until her education was complete.
When the account in Ezekiel says that the devil was faultless "until" unrighteousness was found in him, it is not specific as to when that was, but if he was already rebellious in heaven, they why assign him such a responsible position? That would have been deliberate sabotage.

With all that transpired afterwards, I cannot see God being to blame for all the tragedy.

Then, of course, she was led to allow a distortion of the character of God to invade her reasoning (Why would God forbid such lovely fruit?) which is exactly how sin was conceived in Heaven and has so often occurred throughout the ages.

Notice how closely the adversary’s counterfeit wisdom resembles the genuine:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (Genesis 3:22)
Such is the enemy’s deceptive practice in all ages.

Of course, Adam sinned because he could not bear the thought of being separated from his wife. But just as God had said, at the very moment they ate of the tree, their cells began a process of dying ever so slightly faster than they could regenerate. They were indeed dying. And just as a day with God is as a thousand years, they succumbed to the sentence of their crime before the day with God was out.

Agree with this.

Oh dear....too long again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The management of free will must be surrendered to God completely, because only under His governance can we be truly free to do right.

Free will was never truly "free"...that is what they had to come to terms with. Even though bad choices could be made, now they would reap what they had sown.....we all do. Surrendering our will to God is the most important lesson we can learn.

Righteousness has always been by faith. We will have no different nature than did Adam and Eve in the garden. And their perfect sinless nature failed, as did that of Lucifer and his host of rebels.

So how shall we keep ourselves from sinning in Heaven and the world made new?

The same way Jesus did...by making a choice not to disobey our Sovereign Ruler. Without the devil continually prompting us to make selfish choices and without the sinful nature we inherited from our first parents, it won't be as difficult. Those who pass the test in this world, will have already done that through difficult circumstances....Adam and Eve's circumstances were never difficult, but the results of their choices were horrendous and will be recorded in God's book of human history for all eternity.

When Satan is destroyed, there will be no one to tempt with evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated, and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in Heaven. The wonderful significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ?

Where then is the paradise of God? Where was the first paradise? All those ones who have the idea that their reward is in heaven will be disappointed I feel....that was never in God's original purpose for the human race. We were put here for a reason and our assignment was to be permanent.

The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded against apostasy. Without the cross, they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security on earth or in Heaven must look to the Lamb of God.

He was the solution to the abuse of free will. He came to earth to get us back what Adam lost for all of us.....now we can get on with the business for which we were created.....and who knows what God has planned for the rest of his vast universe....I am sure he did not create it for nothing....

The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come.

I have no doubt that the future will be just as God anticipated, (Revelation 21:2-4) despite the detours required to get there.

We do not comprehend the value of the atonement. If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in His beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of His law, and still save the transgressor. The theme of redemption is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed on the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin.

Indeed.....atonement was kept before Israel as they offered their sacrifices to God each week, but the ultimate atonement...the permanent one that cancelled out all those animals sacrifices, made them pale into insignificance. I am sure we will be called to commemorate that beautiful act of love for all time to come.

Much has been made of theologians about the question as to whether Christ’s human nature was that of man before the fall, or after. Too much has been made of it, in fact. The concern has been that if He had the pre-fall nature, then He would have an advantage that would disqualify Him as our Substitute in the atonement. But like with so many other subjects over which finite beings love to contend, this is a non-issue. If Christ had the same human nature that Adam had, what advantage would it give Him?

Adam failed.

What do you think, Aunty?

Yes, Adam failed...Eve failed...and the angel who became the devil failed....But God didn't. Giving creatures free will was never going to be easy because they first had to learn how to 'drive' it. What God created was "Perfect".

Perfection is an interesting word when applied to God's creation....."Perfect" in the Christian scriptures is "teleios" which means.....

1. brought to its end, finished
   
   
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness.

So all that God created was perfect for its intended purpose, meaning that it was without defect, needing nothing to be added to make it complete. Creation itself was brought to a successful conclusion with the creation of man.

I do not understand how people cannot know the mechanics of the ransom.
It's relatively simple...."atonement" is "at-one-ment"...one for one. So asking whether Christ had pre-fall humanity or after-fall humanity is revealing no understanding of the atonement at all.

The life Adam lost for his children was perfect sinless life. Adam paid with his own life for his own sin, (so did his wife) but who could buy back what he lost for all his offspring? Only an equally sinless life could atone for Adam's debt. So it plainly states in the scriptures that Jesus was born as a sinless human by the power of God's spirit, fulfilling his promise in Eden to provide a seed who would come to the rescue of all of Adam's descendants, redeeming them by paying the set price for their freedom.....a perfect life for a perfect life.

Doesn't that make sense?

 

[bbyrd009]

if Adam had been by her side

and gave also unto her husband with her

hmm

at the very moment they ate of the tree, their cells began a process of dying ever so slightly faster than they could regenerate

i suspect spiritual death there, not literal

redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood

for under the law nearly every sin requires blood eh

 

[BarneyFife]

i suspect spiritual death there, not literal

hmmm, Greek dualism eh

 

[theefaith]

The modern enlightened atheists say that Adam and Eve never existed?

go figure

 

[bbyrd009]

well im not atheist, and i strongly suspect that A&E are meant as mythology myself :)

hmmm, Greek dualism eh

seems prevalent enough in the NT…dunno
im just skeptical that we could not die and still procreate

 

[theefaith]

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

Jesus says Adam and Eve existed!

 

[bbyrd009]

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

Jesus says Adam and Eve existed!

ah well dont get me wrong ok, they are perfectly real enough imo; its just that “existence” implies “objective evidence.” fine with me if ppl want to believe that they “existed” tho, but that will imo limit ones understanding of their nature, as vv 7-8 up there even hint at

 

[Wrangler]

Oh dear....too long again

This is why I often break up a response to one paragraph or even sentence at a time. This makes each post bit size.

I know you do not do this but some compensate for depth of understanding with copious copy and pasting of verses. Volume <> Correctness. (This is an online forum, not a formal debate environment.)


Whoever restrains his words has knowledge
Proverbs 17:27

 

[theefaith]

ah well dont get me wrong ok, they are perfectly real enough imo; its just that “existence” implies “objective evidence.” fine with me if ppl want to believe that they “existed” tho, but that will imo limit ones understanding of their nature, as vv 7-8 up there even hint at

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sinentered into the world, and death bysin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

that one man was Adam!

they also say Christ never existed

2 Peter 3
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, ...

 

[theefaith]

Aunty Jane

can the dead communicate?

 

[bbyrd009]

they also say Christ never existed

well, to that i would say that again you are using the worldly benchmark of “existence” when that may not be necessary, or even desirable

can you demonstrate the “existence” of your awareness?

Whatever you are aware of, you are aware. You could not be aware of your sinfulness without awareness. That awareness is you, that awareness is God. When you say "I", you are referring to the knowing awareness that lights up your experience, all else is an idea of yourself borrowed from somewhere else. Anything that is known, is known by awareness alone. You can't see awareness anywhere you look for it since has no dimensions or form, yet it's present. You can only let go and relax as it. It'a a lot like falling asleep while remaining awake.

 

[BarneyFife]

im just skeptical that we could not die and still procreate

I'm not following you here:
Wouldn't one have to be alive to procreate?

 

[BarneyFife]

When the account in Ezekiel says that the devil was faultless "until" unrighteousness was found in him, it is not specific as to when that was, but if he was already rebellious in heaven, they why assign him such a responsible position? That would have been deliberate sabotage.

With all that transpired afterwards, I cannot see God being to blame for all the tragedy.

Quite to the contrary, I believe he was stationed in the glory right before the throne of God because He knew that it was the best opportunity for him to humble himself and avoid the rise of pride in his heart and the subsequent rebellion. God will doubtless be revealed as being totally blameless for sin at the culmination of the controversy.

The same way Jesus did...by making a choice not to disobey our Sovereign Ruler. Without the devil continually prompting us to make selfish choices and without the sinful nature we inherited from our first parents, it won't be as difficult. Those who pass the test in this world, will have already done that through difficult circumstances....Adam and Eve's circumstances were never difficult, but the results of their choices were horrendous and will be recorded in God's book of human history for all eternity.

This seems internally problematic to me since the devil had no one to tempt him and Adam and Eve surely did. There simply is no excuse for sin at any point along the progression of the disease (I'm not suggesting that you would believe otherwise—only stating for clarification's sake). Therefore the reason for its origin and existence cannot be explained fully, for to do so would excuse it. It is a mysterious intruder.

There is no possibility for creation, after the destruction of sin and unrepentant sinners, to be more functionally righteous than was Lucifer before the first glimmer of self-seeking entered his consciousness.

The only way to avoid a 2nd rebellion and yet preserve the existence of voluntary devotion to God is for the universe to have the eternal vaccine/antidote of the love expressed by the Lamb Of God and His scars to gaze upon and contemplate.

Redemption is a contingency and should never have been necessary. But it was no surprise to God and was certainly not His fault. We cannot so much understand this as we can accept it. It is a "hidden thing."

Who knows how long God's creatures lived in peace and bliss before the Fall of Lucifer (I hope you don't object too much to that—it's what I'm used to calling him in his pre-terrestrial residence)? There is no reason it should ever have ceased to be so.

Lucifer of his own volition lost his hold on righteousness by faith in God's character, which was possible only because it was not automatonically imposed on him by his Creator. Love simply is not love unless it is voluntary. This is so important in my estimation.

But the depths of it cannot be plumbed by human perception. It is why both iniquity and godliness are called a "mystery."

Free will was never truly "free"...that is what they had to come to terms with. Even though bad choices could be made, now they would reap what they had sown.....we all do. Surrendering our will to God is the most important lesson we can learn.

Check, except I would probably express it as: Free will was never free in every human sense of the word.

We have, after all, this treasure in earthen vessels. Human language is woefully inadequate to proclaim the glory of God. But we do the best we can with what we have and let the Holy Spirit do the (immense) rest.

Truth cannot be taken into the heart by mere mental assent. Spiritual regeneration is required to embark upon its journey. The mind/heart that does not pulse with awe and wonder at the Truth, the Way, and the Life is wicked and cannot begin to understand (Daniel 12:10). The Truth is Christ and Him slain from the foundation of the world.

Indeed.....atonement was kept before Israel as they offered their sacrifices to God each week, but the ultimate atonement...the permanent one that cancelled out all those animals sacrifices, made them pale into insignificance. I am sure we will be called to commemorate that beautiful act of love for all time to come.

Yes, but there is so much significance to the illustration that the Hebrew economy revealed about the unseen things that were going on at Calvary. Part of the schoolmaster.

Yes, Adam failed...Eve failed...and the angel who became the devil failed....But God didn't. Giving creatures free will was never going to be easy because they first had to learn how to 'drive' it. What God created was "Perfect".

Perfection is an interesting word when applied to God's creation....."Perfect" in the Christian scriptures is "teleios" which means.....

1. brought to its end, finished
   
   
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness.

So all that God created was perfect for its intended purpose, meaning that it was without defect, needing nothing to be added to make it complete. Creation itself was brought to a successful conclusion with the creation of man.

Indeed, but "drive it?" It seems to me more like a matter of not 'abusing' it which I think you've mentioned before. Minor point of difference, I suppose.

The life Adam lost for his children was perfect sinless life. Adam paid with his own life for his own sin, (so did his wife) but who could buy back what he lost for all his offspring? Only an equally sinless life could atone for Adam's debt. So it plainly states in the scriptures that Jesus was born as a sinless human by the power of God's spirit, fulfilling his promise in Eden to provide a seed who would come to the rescue of all of Adam's descendants, redeeming them by paying the set price for their freedom.....a perfect life for a perfect life.

Doesn't that make sense?

Well, yes, except that unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're suggesting that redemption is different for Adam and Eve than it is for their offspring, which would trouble me just a bit.

The wages of sin, in the fullest sense, is the 'second death.'

I do not understand how people cannot know the mechanics of the ransom.
It's relatively simple...."atonement" is "at-one-ment"...one for one. So asking whether Christ had pre-fall humanity or after-fall humanity is revealing no understanding of the atonement at all.

Redemption is relatively simple for us, but it is complicated for God, not in proportion to His ability, but in proportion to our ability to understand it. The love that compelled Christ to condescend to become human is unfathomable and, if I'm not mistaken, Tyndale had to actually invent the English word "atonement" to convey what the original tongues were expressing (I understand he also invented the word "beautiful"). All of those pieces of furniture and other objects, and even the structure of the Sanctuary itself, represent aspects of the process God requires to dispatch the problem of sin.

Where then is the paradise of God? Where was the first paradise? All those ones who have the idea that their reward is in heaven will be disappointed I feel....that was never in God's original purpose for the human race. We were put here for a reason and our assignment was to be permanent.

We will, no doubt be at odds with each other regarding eschatology and history. My understanding is that Eden was taken away from earth sometime after the fall of man. I'm not sure what purpose it will serve to go forward along this vein but here we go:

The duty of man was to populate the earth fully with a lifestyle such as that in the garden of Eden. Well, we populated the earth, all right, but only with 900-year-old super sinners and God had to get rid of them and start over. That didn't start off so well, either, with Ham and his brood. So He raised up Israel through Abraham and Isaac. And it goes on and on, but with the introduction of flesh food into the diet of man beginning with Noah, his life span was shortened so that sin couldn't proliferate quite as densely. Were just talking about the function of the mankind project up to this point—not so much about redemption.

So the story goes on and the cycle of gather, chasten, scatter, gather the remnant, chasten, scatter, etc. goes on until the earth and its inhabitants are groaning and travailing and the cry goes up to God from all, which culminates in a crescendo of good and evil activity until, finally the harvest is fully ripe, the investigative judgment (strictly for the benefit of the unfallen of the universe) has been completed, and the Bridegroom returns to receive His bride (the left alive and the resurrected for both of whom he has poured out his lifeblood) and destroy the living wicked.

He then takes His redeemed of the earth to heaven for 1000 years to reign with Him and to examine the deeds that have been done by all and to clear up all questions as to who has chosen to serve the LORD and who has chosen to serve Him not, while the devil and his imps roam the desolate earth destroyed with fire with no one to tempt, thus binding him in chains, figuratively.

After the millennial judgment (strictly for the benefit of the redeemed) is accomplished Christ and His Bride return to the earth riding atop the New Jerusalem (complete with the preserved garden of Eden) and Jesus raises the wicked from the dead. Satan marshals them for one final assault on the great city.

(To be continued)

 

[BarneyFife]

(Cont'd)
Now Christ appears in view of His enemies. Far above the city, on a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne. The Son of God sits on this throne, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The glory of the Eternal Father enfolds His Son. The brightness of His presence flows out beyond the gates, flooding the earth with radiance.

In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, acknowledged as having supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence on the rebels who have broken His law and oppressed His people. “I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books” (Revelation 20:11-12).

As the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin they have ever committed. They see where their feet left the path of holiness. The alluring temptations that they encouraged by indulging in sin, the messengers of God they despised, the warnings they rejected, the waves of mercy that their stubborn, unrepentant hearts beat back—all appear as if written in letters of fire.

Above the throne they see the cross. Like a panoramic view they watch the scenes of Adam’s fall and the steps that followed it in the plan of redemption. The Savior’s humble birth; His life of simplicity; His baptism in the Jordan; His fasting and temptation in the wilderness; His ministry bringing heaven’s blessings to humanity; the days crowded with acts of mercy, the nights of prayer in the mountains; the plottings of envy and meanness that repaid His benefits; His mysterious agony in Gethsemane beneath the weight of the sins of the world; His betrayal to the murderous mob; the events of that night of horror—the unresisting prisoner abandoned by His disciples, put on trial in the high priest’s palace, in the judgment hall of Pilate, before the cowardly Herod, mocked, insulted, tortured, and condemned to die—these events are all vividly portrayed.

And now the swaying crowd watches the final scenes: the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging on the cross; the priests and rabbis mocking His dying agony; the supernatural darkness marking the moment when the world’s Redeemer yielded up His life.

The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan and his subjects have no power to turn away from the picture. Each actor remembers the part he performed. Herod, who killed the innocent children of Bethlehem; the evil Herodias, guilty of the blood of John the Baptist; the weak, political Pilate; the mocking soldiers; the raging crowd who shouted, “His blood be on us and on our children!”—all try but fail to hide from the divine majesty of His face, while the redeemed throw their crowns at the Savior’s feet, exclaiming, “He died for me!”

The whole wicked world stands arraigned on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. The lost have no one to plead their cause. They are without excuse, and God pronounces the sentence of eternal death against them.

As if hypnotized, the wicked watch the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tablets of the divine law they have despised. They witness the outburst of adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the crowds outside the city, all exclaim, “Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!” (Revelation 15:3). Falling face down, they worship the Prince of life.

Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has made him unfit for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God. The purity and harmony of heaven would be supreme torture to him. He bows down and admits the justice of his sentence.

The whole universe, loyal and rebellious, with one voice declares, “Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!”

Satan’s character remains unchanged. Rebellion bursts out again like a raging flood. He determines not to give up the last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. But of all the countless millions whom he has drawn into rebellion, none now follow him as leader. The same hatred of God that inspires Satan fills the wicked, but they see that their case is hopeless.

Saith the Lord: “Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.” “I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.... I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.... Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:6-8, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

“I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” (Revelation 21:1). The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep the ransomed thinking about sin’s fearful consequences.

One reminder alone remains: our Redeemer will always carry the marks of His crucifixion, the only traces of the cruel work that sin has done. Through eternal ages the wounds of Calvary will reveal His praise and declare His power.

Christ assured His disciples that He went to prepare homes for them in the Father’s house. Human language cannot describe the reward of the righteous. Only those who see it will truly know it. No finite mind can comprehend the glory of the Paradise of God!

The Bible calls the inheritance of the saved “a country” (Hebrews 11:14-16). There the heavenly Shepherd leads His flock to fountains of living waters. There are ever-flowing streams, clear as crystal, and beside them waving trees cast their shadows on the paths God has prepared for the ransomed of the Lord. Wide-spreading plains rise into beautiful hills, and the mountains of God lift their high summits. On those peaceful plains, beside those living streams, God’s people, who have been pilgrims and wanderers for so long, will find a home.

“They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; ... My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” “The wilderness and the wasteland shall be glad for them, and the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose.” “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, ... and a little child shall lead them.... They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain.” (Isaiah 65:21-22; Isaiah 35:1; Isaiah 11:6-9.)

There is the New Jerusalem, the capital city of the glorified new earth. “Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.” “The nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.” “The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.” (Revelation 21:11, Revelation 21:24, Revelation 21:3.)

In the City of God “there shall be no night” (Revelation 22:5). There will be no tiredness. We will always feel the freshness of the morning and always be far from its close. The light of the sun will be surpassed by a radiance that is not painfully dazzling, yet immeasurably exceeds the brightness of our noonday. The redeemed walk in the glory of perpetual day.

“I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Revelation 21:22). The people of God are privileged to interact freely with the Father and the Son. Now we see the image of God like something in a mirror, but then we will see Him face to face, without a dimming veil between.
The Great Hope, The Great Controversy—EGW

 

[BarneyFife]

Oh dear....too long again.

Could this possibly be the pot calling the kettle black? -lol

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane

can the dead communicate?

According to the scriptures, when death occurs, the soul dies. Since we do not have any conscious part of us that survives death, my answer would be NO!
It was forbidden under God’s law to practice necromancy or any other form of spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Those who believe that the dead are still alive are falling for the first lie ever told.... “you surely will not die”.....it wasn’t God who said that. God told Adam.... “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Did God ever mention anything about a conscious part of humans that lives on in another realm?

What did the Jews believe about life after death? (Remembering that Jesus was Jewish and the only scripture he had and quoted from was the OT.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10...
”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

Solomon also wrote.... “for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

No mention of an afterlife there either.....just a return to the dust.

In my studies of the scriptures, I see that people confuse two words as if they mean the same thing....that is “soul” and “spirit”.....these words are not interchangeable because they mean two entirely different things.

I often hear people refer to Ecclesiastes 12:7, which says.... “Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.“

This has people assuming that the spirit is the soul.....but it isn’t.
When God created Adam from the dust (elements) of the earth, what did he give Adam to bring him to life?
Genesis 2:7....(ASV)
“And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Adam was not given a soul but “became” one when God started him breathing.
The “breath of life” is the “spirit” that animates a soul, be it a human or an animal, as Solomon said. All have the same “spirit” or breath that keeps them alive. Once the spirit goes out of a soul, it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4, Psalm 146:4)

The Jews believed in resurrection, (a restoration of life) not immortality of the soul (as a continuation of it). (John 5:28-29) That is a pagan Greek notion adopted later by those who chose to believe the devil’s lies instead of the Bible’s truth.

 

[stephen64]

According to the scriptures, when death occurs, the soul dies. Since we do not have any conscious part of us that survives death, my answer would be NO!
It was forbidden under God’s law to practice necromancy or any other form of spiritism. (Deuterons my 18:9-12)

Those who believe that the dead are still alive are falling for the first lie ever told.... “you surely will not die”.....it wasn’t God who said that. God told Adam.... “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Did God ever mention anything about a conscious part of humans that lives on in another realm?

What did the Jews believe about life after death? (Remembering that Jesus was Jewish and the only scripture he had and quoted from was the OT.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10...
”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

Solomon also wrote.... “for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

No mention of an afterlife there either.....just a return to the dust.

In my studies of the scriptures, I see that people confuse two words as if they mean the same thing....that is “soul” and “spirit”.....these words are not interchangeable because they mean two entirely different things.

I often hear people refer to Ecclesiastes 12:7, which says.... “Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.“

This has people assuming that the spirit is the soul.....but it isn’t.
When God created Adam from the dust (elements) of the earth, what did he give Adam to bring him to life?
Genesis 2:7....(ASV)
“And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Adam was not given a soul but “became” one when God started him breathing.
The “breath of life” is the “spirit” that animates a soul, be it a human or an animal, as Solomon said. All have the same “spirit” or breath that keeps them alive. Once the spirit goes out of a soul, it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4, Psalm 146:4)

The Jews believed in resurrection, (a restoration of life) not immortality of the soul (as a continuation of it). (John 5:28-29) That is a pagan Greek notion adopted later by those who chose to believe the devil’s lies instead of the Bible’s truth.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Peter3:18-20
How could Jesus, after he was crucified go and preach to those who had no consciousness?