A Kingdom of the Son exists today or not?!

[APAK]

A Kingdom of the Son exists today or not?!

This thread is about rediscovering and re-examining the true objective of the gospel - human salvation and restoration into the Kingdom of Heaven through the Son of God.

The Kingdom of Heaven has always existed as God previously dealt with mankind directly into the affairs of men for their salvation and restoration.

Under the NT, the Kingdom of God deals with mankind's future through the hands of his Son, as King and (High) Priest.

Now there are dozens of views concerning the current Kingdom status and only one must be true.

I firmly believe that scripture especially in the gospel writers tell us the truth about the Kingdom. This truth then must show that we are also not still living in our sins today. Yes, our salvation depends on this true status of the Kingdom.

The status of the Kingdom, whether active, dormant, stalled or not present now or into the future speak to our salvation state or status: whether irreparably lost without hope or with hope and it's achievable.

As I just said earlier, Salvation and the Kingdom are inextricably related to each other.

I say we have a Kingdom of God via his Son today and this view is scriptural although it places me at odds with most 'Christians' who hope and place their faith in a future Kingdom ruled by the Son.

I would prefer scripture that speaks to the Kingdom at the initial layout discussion, as the ground work and ground truth.

Let me start off:

(Mat 3:2) Repent! For the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Q: What does it mean that the kingdom of heaven is at hand?

(Mat 4:23) And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.

Q: Why is miraculous healing, initially performed by Jesus, related directly to the Kingdom of God?

(Mat 13:19) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and understands it not, then comes the evil one and snatches away that which has been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.

Q: Why is the word of the Kingdom related directly to our salvation?

(Act 8:12) But when they believed Philip as he was preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Q: What where the things that Philip preached concerning the relation of the kingdom of God and Jesus the Christ?

(Heb 8:1) Now in the things of which we are talking, the chief point is this. We have such a high priest who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Q: Why is the Lord Jesus now also called the high priest sitting in the power of God, in his throne, in the heavens?

(Heb 10:12) But he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Heb 10:13) from that time forward expectantly waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet.

Q: What does it mean that our Lord Jesus is waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet?

So, do we have a Kingdom ruled today by the Son or not, and why or why not?



How say ye?

 

[ScottA]

A Kingdom of the Son exists today or not?!

This thread is about rediscovering and re-examining the true objective of the gospel - human salvation and restoration into the Kingdom of Heaven through the Son of God.

The Kingdom of Heaven has always existed as God previously dealt with mankind directly into the affairs of men for their salvation and restoration.

Under the NT, the Kingdom of God deals with mankind's future through the hands of his Son, as King and (High) Priest.

Now there are dozens of views concerning the current Kingdom status and only one must be true.

I firmly believe that scripture especially in the gospel writers tell us the truth about the Kingdom. This truth then must show that we are also not still living in our sins today. Yes, our salvation depends on this true status of the Kingdom.

The status of the Kingdom, whether active, dormant, stalled or not present now or into the future speak to our salvation state or status: whether irreparably lost without hope or with hope and it's achievable.

As I just said earlier, Salvation and the Kingdom are inextricably related to each other.

I say we have a Kingdom of God via his Son today and this view is scriptural although it places me at odds with most 'Christians' who hope and place their faith in a future Kingdom ruled by the Son.

I would prefer scripture that speaks to the Kingdom at the initial layout discussion, as the ground work and ground truth.

Let me start off:

(Mat 3:2) Repent! For the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Q: What does it mean that the kingdom of heaven is at hand?

(Mat 4:23) And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.

Q: Why is miraculous healing, initially performed by Jesus, related directly to the Kingdom of God?

(Mat 13:19) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and understands it not, then comes the evil one and snatches away that which has been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.

Q: Why is the word of the Kingdom related directly to our salvation?

(Act 8:12) But when they believed Philip as he was preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Q: What where the things that Philip preached concerning the relation of the kingdom of God and Jesus the Christ?

(Heb 8:1) Now in the things of which we are talking, the chief point is this. We have such a high priest who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Q: Why is the Lord Jesus now also called the high priest sitting in the power of God, in his throne, in the heavens?

(Heb 10:12) But he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Heb 10:13) from that time forward expectantly waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet.

Q: What does it mean that our Lord Jesus is waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet?

So, do we have a Kingdom ruled today by the Son or not, and why or why not?



How say ye?

Perhaps a better question for most to arrive at their own understanding of what is actually true rather than just what is "believed" to be true, is:

Is it possible for God himself to exist in both this world and also in His own kingdom at the same time?​

If so, then those who are His, those who have already passed from death to life, and are in Him in Christ, and He in them, i.e. "One"...would be no different. Otherwise, when salvation occurs one would simply vanish. All of which makes it impossible to truthfully consider that, No, God cannot exist in this world and also in His own kingdom at the same time...which would mean denying the biblical fact that Christ is "God with us." To do so would be to deny one's own salvation.

 

[PinSeeker]

...do we have a Kingdom ruled today by the Son or not, and why or why not?



How say ye?

Yes. He is seated (which has far, far greater implications than merely that He is sitting down rather than standing) at the right hand of God the Father (which has far, far greater implications than merely that He is on the Father's right rather than His left). Christ Jesus is reigning now. He is our King, the greater David, ruling over greater Israel, which consists of all those in Christ. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. And one day soon, our faith will be sight.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Apak,

My personal believe is that Yeshua is no longer seated at the right hand of the Father, and has overcome all things. The Kingdom has been established and it was at hand, because it right there near them, by the life of Christ who would establish that kingdom, and it would be right there at hand when the kingdom was within them. It was about 3 more years, and Jesus died, and was risen again and the holy spirit dropped out. The establishment came soon and quickly in the Revelation as promised to those living breating people, and those who were part of that Kingdom were looking, watching, waiting. After being taken and the kingdom fully established with the Lord God Almighty as the head over all things, now today people are adopted into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, by faith. People die today, they are resurrected with an assessment, if you would like more details about the Kingdom, it all starts at Revelation 21, and 22, to see an overview of what it is like and what consists in and outside of it. Praise be to Yahava, and the Son Yeshua for doing what they have done for the world at large.

 

[APAK]

Perhaps a better question for most to arrive at their own understanding of what is actually true rather than just what is "believed" to be true, is:

Is it possible for God himself to exist in both this world and also in His own kingdom at the same time?​

If so, then those who are His, those who have already passed from death to life, and are in Him in Christ, and He in them, i.e. "One"...would be no different. Otherwise, when salvation occurs one would simply vanish. All of which makes it impossible to truthfully consider that, No, God cannot exist in this world and also in His own kingdom at the same time...which would mean denying the biblical fact that Christ is "God with us." To do so would be to deny one's own salvation.

Scott, I do not agree with you on your statement beginning with "No." Besides I see a Trini or Bini view you have here especially when your view of "God with us" is quite different different than mine. The understanding of "God with us" is for another topic and will not be allowed on this site....as we both know.

Nevertheless, this approach I'm taking is an open view using scripture concerning the Kingdom and its reality, and I'm trying to stay 'ism' free with my posts in the process.

If we know that the Kingdom is present via the Spirit of God, and it is according to scripture, then we both know the Kingdom exists in both realms of heaven and earth at the same time.

 

[APAK]

Yes. He is seated (which has far, far greater implications than merely that He is sitting down rather than standing) at the right hand of God the Father (which has far, far greater implications than merely that He is on the Father's right rather than His left). Christ Jesus is reigning now. He is our King, the greater David, ruling over greater Israel, which consists of all those in Christ. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. And one day soon, our faith will be sight.

Grace and peace to you.

I seem to agree with your words here....if none are heavily loaded.... He is also the high priest by virtue of his act on the Cross - both King and Priest in power today. And he must be at the helm of the Kingdom today for us to be saved....

So how is he ruling today? You know I'm definitely not the final word on this question by a long shot.

Is he fighting evil or defending and saving folks from evil where he can...I will take the latter view as the OT speaks of this a lot...to save and not to fight evil directly as many today, as did the Pharisees want to see in the Son of God...

 

[APAK]

Hello Apak,

My personal believe is that Yeshua is no longer seated at the right hand of the Father, and has overcome all things. The Kingdom has been established and it was at hand, because it right there near them, by the life of Christ who would establish that kingdom, and it would be right there at hand when the kingdom was within them. It was about 3 more years, and Jesus died, and was risen again and the holy spirit dropped out. The establishment came soon and quickly in the Revelation as promised to those living breating people, and those who were part of that Kingdom were looking, watching, waiting. After being taken and the kingdom fully established with the Lord God Almighty as the head over all things, now today people are adopted into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, by faith. People die today, they are resurrected with an assessment, if you would like more details about the Kingdom, it all starts at Revelation 21, and 22, to see an overview of what it is like and what consists in and outside of it. Praise be to Yahava, and the Son Yeshua for doing what they have done for the world at large.

This is a tough subject once we establish the basic truths from scripture first, without human imaginations of what we think scripture is saying, as in slapping on the final touches or icing on the cake that really do not match in quality and truth the cake proper...as we are somehow urged to complete it in a specific amount of time.

I do know of some things and you beliefs in this subject already. Read many of your posts.

Let me say that I agree that the kingdom did arrive since the day of Pentecost in power, in both heaven and earth. The disciples and Christ with the angels performing miracles to the will of God....thy will be done in both heaven and on the earth. When before Christ went to the Cross, the fulfillment of his prayer to his Father became a reality. The Kingdom promised did arrive, a few years later on.

Now to me as I read scripture we must also know that Jesus the Christ was not only made our lord beyond just being a teacher and master, he became anointed as Christ to rule as King of Kings and Lord of all Lords, will heavy measures of authority and power to create and perform things in concert with his Father's will. He is concurrently sitting in power on the throne of God as the high priest so he can now and he does intercede for us regarding our lives and salvation. I notice it a lot in my life in some form and registers within me, and it can be of a source of an angelic host.

If scripture says that the gospel of the Kingdom is at hand as also spoken of by Christ and his disciples, in the first century as it was written, it had to be completed in that century - its establishment at least.

Scripture does not allow us to span this Kingdom start, out for a couple or a few thousands of years out because of man's ignorance in thinking on this matter to suit their imaginations in concert with a future physical conquest.

It was always and is a spiritual Kingdom of another realm, not of this earthly mindset and realm, not a physical earthly Kingdom to come in the distant future as part of some fulfillment of a movie trilogy....

The concept and the Body of Christ the church, is synonymous and interchangeable with the Kingdom as Christ is called the Kingdom as King. The Kingdom came with his miraculous works, in his midst, as demonstration of the future arrival of the Spirit of God with human beings. He was the core of Kingdom and in him we can be in this realm as well, together.

So those that say the Kingdom has not arrive yet, they also must be saying the Spirit of God has not also arrived on the earth yet in certain men and Jesus was just practicing for the Kingdom to come many thousands of years later. We are then yet to be saved and still are lost in our sins!

You cannot have true salvation without an active Kingdom with a true ruler and a High Priest for the coverage of human sin, period!

more I can say as this progresses I hope....

 

[APAK]

(Mar 9:1) The Transfiguration And he said to them: Truly I say to you: There are some standing here, who shall in no way taste death, before they see the kingdom of God come with power.

Yes, the expected Kingdom did arrive on schedule on God's time table and not ours, fortunately!

(Act 1:4) And, being assembled together with them, he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, you heard from me:
(Act 1:5) For John indeed baptized with water, but soon you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
(Act 1:6) Therefore, when they had come together, they asked him: Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
(Act 1:7) And he said to them: It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father has set within his own authority.
(Act 1:8) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the remotest part of the earth. The Ascension of Jesus

The implication about the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel voiced, and Christ's answer and his promise of the HS, suggests there will not be any physical national restoration of physical Israel. It will be a complete restoration of the spiritual Israel in the future as dictated in time by the Father.

 

[MatthewG]

This is a tough subject once we establish the basic truths from scripture first, without human imaginations of what we think scripture is saying, as in slapping on the final touches or icing on the cake that really do not match in quality and truth the cake proper...as we are somehow urged to complete it in a specific amount of time.

I do know of some things and you beliefs in this subject already. Read many of your posts.

Let me say that I agree that the kingdom did arrive since the day of Pentecost in power, in both heaven and earth. The disciples and Christ with the angels performing miracles to the will of God....thy will be done in both heaven and on the earth. When before Christ went to the Cross, the fulfillment of his prayer to his Father became a reality. The Kingdom promised did arrive, a few years later on.

Now to me as I read scripture we must also know that Jesus the Christ was not only made our lord beyond just being a teacher and master, he became anointed as Christ to rule as King of Kings and Lord of all Lords, will heavy measures of authority and power to create and perform things in concert with his Father's will. He is concurrently sitting in power on the throne of God as the high priest so he can now and he does intercede for us regarding our lives and salvation. I notice it a lot in my life in some form and registers within me, and it can be of a source of an angelic host.

If scripture says that the gospel of the Kingdom is at hand as also spoken of by Christ and his disciples, in the first century as it was written, it had to be completed in that century - its establishment at least.

Scripture does not allow us to span this Kingdom start, out for a couple or a few thousands of years out because of man's ignorance in thinking on this matter to suit their imaginations in concert with a future physical conquest.

It was always and is a spiritual Kingdom of another realm, not of this earthly mindset and realm, not a physical earthly Kingdom to come in the distant future as part of some fulfillment of a movie trilogy....

The concept and the Body of Christ the church, is synonymous and interchangeable with the Kingdom as Christ is called the Kingdom as King. The Kingdom came with his miraculous works, in his midst, as demonstration of the future arrival of the Spirit of God with human beings. He was the core of Kingdom and in him we can be in this realm as well, together.

So those that say the Kingdom has not arrive yet, they also must be saying the Spirit of God has not also arrived on the earth yet in certain men and Jesus was just practicing for the Kingdom to come many thousands of years later. We are then yet to be saved and still are lost in our sins!

You cannot have true salvation without an active Kingdom with a true ruler and a High Priest for the coverage of human sin, period!

more I can say as this progresses I hope....

Apak,

Thank you for your comment.
Was there ever a point in time where you differ on how you see things today?

 

[APAK]

(Luk 17:20) And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God comes, he answered them and said: The kingdom of God comes not with observation.
(Luk 17:21) Neither shall they say, Here it is, or, There it is! For the kingdom of God is among you.

It came without any fanfare, it is invisible, spiritual, detected by the hearts and minds of men of God, his people. Although, Jesus on the colt entering Jerusalem for the first time on his mission, did signify eventhough he was then a human servant of a man he would soon be dubbed King and Lord and High Priest of the Kingdom by God.

There was and will be not another Kingdom with our Savior in the future of this kind. If one says our Savior and his Kingdom is coming soon and this will be its location or here it is, then do not follow them. He will be invisible and electric to perform justice and return the Kingdom back to his Father for a new realm of living.

So what does that say about Premillennialists in general? Jesus will 'return' as invisible as he left this earth, unnoticed as 'a thief in the night' as he already possessed his Kingdom since the 1st century AD. He 'returns' after death and its abode is vanished, to collect all that he owns of mankind, their essence, their spirits and gives them immortality with new star-like vessels, and decides on the outcome of men who disobeyed the gospel of the Kingdom and its King. Then the end of the final age of physical earthly man and his domain comes to an end, with the introduction of new heaven and new earth.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, I do not agree with you on your statement beginning with "No." Besides I see a Trini or Bini view you have here especially when your view of "God with us" is quite different different than mine. The understanding of "God with us" is for another topic and will not be allowed on this site....as we both know.

Nevertheless, this approach I'm taking is an open view using scripture concerning the Kingdom and its reality, and I'm trying to stay 'ism' free with my posts in the process.

If we know that the Kingdom is present via the Spirit of God, and it is according to scripture, then we both know the Kingdom exists in both realms of heaven and earth at the same time.

I guess "Slow down" is my response...as my "No" answer was what I was saying is NOT true, but in fact "impossible."

As for "God with us" not being allowed on this site...since when is all scripture not allowed? News to me. As for it not being on topic, that would only be true if your understanding were not assumed to be all there is to it. If you believe I took it out of context--such a reference is not unbiblical, but biblical. An example would be Psalm 22 where David in the context and struggles of his own life prophesied of Christ. This type of reference is not a foul but a precedence (and not my own).

 

[APAK]

Apak,

Thank you for your comment.
Was there ever a point in time where you differ on how you see things today?

Yes, in this subject, of course. I'm still examining this subject very slowly and carefully, like finding hidden treasures buried many years ago...using fine brushes and careful hands. I do not take this eschatology lightly as it directly impacts my hope of salvation. You see I never saw it in this light before..it was a bomb shell event.....

Yes I went through 'the late great planet earth' folks and got caught up with several versions of Premillennialism that really does not fit scripture....without forcing in human ideas..

ex the statue of Neb...there were and are 4 kingdoms stated..Rome being the last one, and then the real Kingdom of God destroyed it the entire statue vanished and the Kingdom replaced it.

And in scripture there is no statement of the toes as any significance. They were just meant to fill in the human shape for stance. Pre-mills thought they would create 10 nations out of the toes for future Kingdom not of God.

Well that uncut growing stone that smashed this image still stands because of the Pre-mills today....only the ankles and 10 toes remain of their version of their statue today, clinging onto a false hope of a future Kingdom via the destruction of 10 future evil nations etc.....so for 2000 years this statue/image of human rule was destroyed and replaced by the Kingdom of God, and yet they have part of its base still clinging onto their own invented form of a fantasy future Kingdom of God....

You know that most early believers thought like you and me in many ways...we must be on to something big here.
//

How's the future prospective jobs and hunt going??

 

[APAK]

I guess "Slow down" is my response...as my "No" answer was what I was saying is NOT true, but in fact "impossible."

As for "God with us" not being allowed on this site...since when is all scripture not allowed? News to me. As for it not being on topic, that would only be true if your understanding were not assumed to be all there is to it. If you believe I took it out of context--such a reference is not unbiblical, but biblical. An example would be Psalm 22 where David in the context and struggles of his own life prophesied of Christ. This type of reference is not a foul but a precedence (and not my own).

'God with us' means YHWH is with his people as he was in war and comfort many times in the OT. And with the Son, his God was also with him and his people.

It was not so much Jesus' name as it was and is an inherent attribute that his Father's Spirit dwelt within him if you will, that possessed his spirit from birth. And so it was so important to be called I(Emmanuel) for this reason alone, not that the Son was God mind you.

See I just crossed the line....I will not go there again for this subject.

 

[ScottA]

'God with us' means YHWH is with his people as he was in war and comfort many times in the OT. And with the Son, his God was also with him and his people.

It was not so much Jesus' name as it was and is an inherent attribute that his Father's Spirit dwelt within him if you will, that possessed his spirit from birth. And so it was so important to be called I(Emmanuel) for this reason alone, not that the Son was God mind you.

See I just crossed the line....I will not go there again for this subject.

Oh, I see, you were referring to yourself making such a statement. Not to worry, there's more to it than that...meaning you have made no violation, merely stopped part way to the finish. There is no condemnation for being caught in the fold, only for being out of the fold. The finish is being One with God. Just as any part of the man is the man, so too are any who are One with God.

Anyway, Yes, God can be and is in heaven and earth--the kingdom does exist today.

 

[APAK]

Oh, I see, you were referring to yourself making such a statement. Not to worry, there's more to it than that...meaning you have made no violation, merely stopped part way to the finish. There is no condemnation for being caught in the fold, only for being out of the fold. The finish is being One with God. Just as any part of the man is the man, so too are any who are One with God.

Anyway, Yes, God can be and is in heaven and earth--the kingdom does exist today.

Amen to that Scott!

 

[Zao is life]

A Kingdom of the Son exists today or not?!

This thread is about rediscovering and re-examining the true objective of the gospel - human salvation and restoration into the Kingdom of Heaven through the Son of God.

The Kingdom of Heaven has always existed as God previously dealt with mankind directly into the affairs of men for their salvation and restoration.

Under the NT, the Kingdom of God deals with mankind's future through the hands of his Son, as King and (High) Priest.

Now there are dozens of views concerning the current Kingdom status and only one must be true.

I firmly believe that scripture especially in the gospel writers tell us the truth about the Kingdom. This truth then must show that we are also not still living in our sins today. Yes, our salvation depends on this true status of the Kingdom.

The status of the Kingdom, whether active, dormant, stalled or not present now or into the future speak to our salvation state or status: whether irreparably lost without hope or with hope and it's achievable.

As I just said earlier, Salvation and the Kingdom are inextricably related to each other.

I say we have a Kingdom of God via his Son today and this view is scriptural although it places me at odds with most 'Christians' who hope and place their faith in a future Kingdom ruled by the Son.

I would prefer scripture that speaks to the Kingdom at the initial layout discussion, as the ground work and ground truth.

Let me start off:

(Mat 3:2) Repent! For the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Q: What does it mean that the kingdom of heaven is at hand?

(Mat 4:23) And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.

Q: Why is miraculous healing, initially performed by Jesus, related directly to the Kingdom of God?

(Mat 13:19) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and understands it not, then comes the evil one and snatches away that which has been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.

Q: Why is the word of the Kingdom related directly to our salvation?

(Act 8:12) But when they believed Philip as he was preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Q: What where the things that Philip preached concerning the relation of the kingdom of God and Jesus the Christ?

(Heb 8:1) Now in the things of which we are talking, the chief point is this. We have such a high priest who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Q: Why is the Lord Jesus now also called the high priest sitting in the power of God, in his throne, in the heavens?

(Heb 10:12) But he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Heb 10:13) from that time forward expectantly waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet.

Q: What does it mean that our Lord Jesus is waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet?

So, do we have a Kingdom ruled today by the Son or not, and why or why not?



How say ye?

This day has already come:

For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There is no end of the increase of His government and peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. -- Isaiah 9:6-7.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. -- Luke 17:21.

Then He said,

The days will come, when all of you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and all of you shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. -- Luke 17:22-25.

So He taught us also:

Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. -- Matthew 6:9-10, 13b.

For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God shall come. -- Luke 22:18

The Kingdom of God/Heaven/Christ has come, but this day has not come:

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness! -- Matthew 7:21-23.

For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God shall come. -- Luke 22:18

The kingdom of God came when its King came, died for our sins, and rose again from the dead.

The Kingdom of God is coming when its King comes.

You may as well ignore and refuse to believe in the "has come" of the Kingdom of Christ if you choose to ignore and refuse to believe the "..is coming" of the Kingdom of Christ.​

 

[PinSeeker]

I seem to agree with your words here....if none are heavily loaded....

Okay, good... but I'm not sure what you mean by "heavily loaded." But no matter.

He is also the high priest by virtue of his act on the Cross - both King and Priest in power today. And he must be at the helm of the Kingdom today for us to be saved....

Sure.

So how is he ruling today? You know I'm definitely not the final word on this question by a long shot.

He's sovereign over all. He is sitting at God's right hand. Somehow, someway, He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. To... put it succinctly. And somehow, God is glorifying Himself in all of this. We can't possibly understand all this from where we sit, but we can believe it, because God says it. And God, of course, does not ~ can not ~ lie; in Him there is no deceit.

Is he fighting evil or defending and saving folks from evil where he can...I will take the latter view as the OT speaks of this a lot...to save and not to fight evil directly as many today, as did the Pharisees want to see in the Son of God...

Ah, so here's what it seems to me like, APAK. It seems ~ seems, and maybe unintentionally ~ that you're really asking the age-old question, "If God is God, why is there evil in the world?" And/or, "Is God really in control?" Are you?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[APAK]

This day has already come:

For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There is no end of the increase of His government and peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. -- Isaiah 9:6-7.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. -- Luke 17:21.

Then He said,

The days will come, when all of you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and all of you shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. -- Luke 17:22-25.

So He taught us also:

Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. -- Matthew 6:9-10, 13b.

For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God shall come. -- Luke 22:18

The Kingdom of God/Heaven/Christ has come, but this day has not come:

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness! -- Matthew 7:21-23.

For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God shall come. -- Luke 22:18

The kingdom of God came when its King came, died for our sins, and rose again from the dead.

The Kingdom of God is coming when its King comes.

You may as well ignore and refuse to believe in the "has come" of the Kingdom of Christ if you choose to ignore and refuse to believe the "..is coming" of the Kingdom of Christ.​

I'm at a loss for words here FoG. What have you accused me of again, that I'm not aware of yet? Can you be clearer and maybe try to explain each scripture you wrote out in your post that I gather supports your claim of what I do not know yet...

As it stands now reading your post I do not know whether you believe that the Kingdom already came in the 1st Century or not...

And then we can have a point of discussion if you wish......thx

 

[APAK]

Okay, good... but I'm not sure what you mean by "heavily loaded." But no matter.


Sure.


He's sovereign over all. He is sitting at God's right hand. Somehow, someway, He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. To... put it succinctly. And somehow, God is glorifying Himself in all of this. We can't possibly understand all this from where we sit, but we can believe it, because God says it. And God, of course, does not ~ can not ~ lie; in Him there is no deceit.


Ah, so here's what it seems to me like, APAK. It seems ~ seems, and maybe unintentionally ~ that you're really asking the age-old question, "If God is God, why is there evil in the world?" And/or, "Is God really in control?" Are you?

Grace and peace to you.

Your last comment is not what I had in mind at all. There is no question about the identity and attributes of YHWH and they never change. It never entered my mind to question them. Although the methods of dealing with evil and evil spirits and wicked men did in the NT.

What has changed since the OT is the tactics or methods to save his people. And the current Kingdom of the Son is all about this change and how it is now defined.

In the Kingdom of God that has existed before man, he proceeded to save his folks by ALSO destroying his enemies in the process.

Under the rulership of his Son today the Kingdom of God it is not about destroying his enemies as he saves his people. Christ as King today is all about giving forgiveness of sin to those seeking his Kingdom and allowing them access. To assist through 'his' angels to keep the new believer on track etc. And of course this entails much more....although the emphasis is on salvation and maturing the Kingdom.

When the Father's time table for the great transition is ready, Christ performs the last judgement in this undetermined future, and all enemies after being raised will be destroyed at one setting or time, permanently, right before all destined for the new form of the Kingdom is aboard so to speak. Then the earth and its contents and the old heavens are destroyed completely, and the King returns the new version of the Kingdom back to his God.

That was the point here. I slopped it then...thx for the trip-up as you forced an explanation...

 

[PinSeeker]

Your last comment is not what I had in mind at all. There is no question about the identity and attributes of YHWH and they never change. It never entered my mind to question them.

Cool.

Although the methods of dealing with evil and evil spirits and wicked men did in the NT. What has changed since the OT is the tactics or methods to save his people. And the current Kingdom of the Son is all about this change and how it is now defined.

I... think I disagree with you here, APAK, if I understand what you're saying correctly. I don't think His methods of dealing with evil have changed, or the "tactics or methods" to save His people. At least with regard to the latter, the writer of Hebrews (ultimately God, of course) refutes that... rather emphatically.

In the Kingdom of God that has existed before man, he proceeded to save his folks by ALSO destroying his enemies in the process.

Well, sometimes. And I would argue that that's still sometimes the case.

Under the rulership of his Son today the Kingdom of God it is not about destroying his enemies as he saves his people.

Hm. Yeah, I disagree that it's really any different than in Old Testament times. It may look different to us, but really, not so much. He still... well, He still makes us lie down in green pastures, leads us beside still waters, restores our souls, leads us in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Even though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we (should) fear no evil, for He is with us, His rod and staff comfort us. He prepares a table before us, He anoints our heads with oil, our cups overflow. And He still issues judgments and... yes, sometimes destroys His enemies, even as He sustains, protects, and delivers His people. He works all things ~ all things ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Christ as King today is all about giving forgiveness of sin to those seeking his Kingdom and allowing them access.

But this is not to the exclusion of judgment(s). God still disciplines those whom He loves, and He still, even now, issues judgments ~ which can take many different forms, even destruction, which itself can take many different forms.

When the Father's time table for the great transition is ready, Christ performs the last judgement in this undetermined future, and all enemies after being raised will be destroyed at one setting or time, permanently, right before all destined for the new form of the Kingdom is aboard so to speak. Then the earth and its contents and the old heavens are destroyed completely, and the King returns the new version of the Kingdom back to his God.

Hm. Well, I'm going to state it this way. The time is set; it always has been, and it will come about at the time God has appointed, and there is both a sense in which it is happening now and a sense that it will ultimately happen. There is a present, penultimate reality and a final, ultimate reality regarding His Kingdom and His judgment ~ just as you and I and all of us who have been born again of the Spirit both are saved and are being saved... we both have eternal life and we will be resurrected to and be given eternal life.

thx for the trip-up as you forced an explanation...

Didn't... really mean to do either...

Grace and peace to you, APAK.