A question about the rapture

[rebuilder 454]

RED FLAG ALERT = You are adding to God's words = very BAD

No additives needed in pretrib rapture.
You are just throwing out generalities.

I showed you specifically where your doctrine changes the word of God.

What you need to do to debate, is show me where rev 14 is a mistake, and the virgin parable fits your doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

BTW, can a postibber unpack the 10 virgin parable?
Lets look at it and correct me with all the parable's components in tact

 

[Randy Kluth]

The second coming does not involve millions of white horses with riders ( saints in white robes) descending from heaven?
Rev 14 does not have Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle and harvesting the earth?

"The book of Revelation cannot possibly present the 2nd Coming in more than one vision? Silly."

Change it if you must. Glad I can read it like it says.
Your doctrine needs a lot of creativity huh?

For 1800 years no Christian read the passage the way you do. End of argument.

Eliminate any notion of a supposed Pretrib Rapture and your questions are easily explained. Christ is coming back with the clouds, and he will harvest the earth. That is depicted in Rev 14.

The harvest will take place at the end of the age, on the last day...

Matt 13.39 ...The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

There will not be two harvests at the end of the age. Would you leave out of Christ's harvest those who overcome the Beast by their confession and by their endurance? I should think not!

But the assumption has to be made that this depiction originates with Dan 7, which is completely Postrib, involving the destruction of Antichrist. The lack of every detail of the 2nd Coming in each vision does not mean each depicted Coming is a separate Coming!

Rather, each account gives its own set of details to fill in all of the blanks. But every depiction easily fits into a single Postrib Coming.

Every depiction of the same relates back to Dan 7, and the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds to destroy Antichrist and to set up God's Kingdom upon the earth. The 2nd Coming, according to Jesus, will be a universal event, as lightning shining from east to west.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation ch14 is JESUS on the clouds with a sickle - absolutely True

Matt 25: 1-13 Parable is also simple truth from the Master = a person is either saved or not, you are either "known" or not

RED FLAG ALERT = pre-trib left behind / trib saints

1) the rapture is NOT salvation, as the foolish virgins are covenant saints.
2) worthiness is the key to attend the rapture. (according to Jesus)

look into it. It is a fact

 

[rebuilder 454]

For 1800 years no Christian read the passage the way you do. End of argument.

if you trust RELIGION over the bible,you can be swayed by man.
You are digging an even deeper hole.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Still waiting on a postribber to unpack the virgin parable.
If it fits a postrib rapture then I am wrong .
Please help me see the light.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here it is without any pollutants or additives;
Mat 25
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[David in NJ]

1) the rapture is NOT salvation, as the foolish virgins are covenant saints.
2) worthiness is the key to attend the rapture. (according to Jesus)

look into it. It is a fact

i c u r suff r ing from FHC

 

[David in NJ]

No additives needed in pretrib rapture.
You are just throwing out generalities.

I showed you specifically where your doctrine changes the word of God.

What you need to do to debate, is show me where rev 14 is a mistake, and the virgin parable fits your doctrine.

the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit is HE who i follow = the Spirit of Truth (Post Trib)

You follow the FHC method

 

[rebuilder 454]

i c u r suff r ing from FHC

Pretrib doctrine is solid
you just proved you can not go to, or unpack the rapture verses.
no problem.
I see your retreat from the debate.

 

[rebuilder 454]

the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit is HE who i follow = the Spirit of Truth (Post Trib)

You follow the FHC method

Ask yourself why you can not open a bible and go toe to toe with me. The Spirit and the bride say come Lord Jesus
That is the banner of the pretrib doctrine of Jesus in mat 25.
Your doctrine does not agree.
You invoke the Holy Spirit in your non biblical assertions.
Ironic how you have it backwards as your doctrine disagrees with mat 25,rev 14 and mat 24
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here it is without any pollutants or additives;
Mat 25
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Still waiting on the postribber correct interpretation
Be interesting because I have never seen the rapture parable included in the postribber talking points.
Surely since you guys invoke the Holy Spirit, it should be super easy to school me on such a simple parable a babe in Christ with a bible could unpack.
How odd that postribbers avoid the best rapture depiction in the entire bible.

 

[David in NJ]

Ask yourself why you can not open a bible and go toe to toe with me. The Spirit and the bride say come Lord Jesus
That is the banner of the pretrib doctrine of Jesus in mat 25.
Your doctrine does not agree.
You invoke the Holy Spirit in your non biblical assertions.
Ironic how you have it backwards as your doctrine disagrees with mat 25,rev 14 and mat 24
SMH

lol

the LORD Jesus Christ is a Post-Trib Prophet just as the OT Prophets are!

Everyone who holds to the teaching of the LORD need not listen to other voices that speak contrary to the words of the LORD.

Matt ch24 = crystal clear
Matt ch25:1-13 = same truth as found throughout the Gospel

Furthermore, the Apostles testify to and agree with the LORD and the OT Prophets

Our High Priest and Chief Apostle shed His Blood on Prophectic Post-Trib Truth by which we are SAVED.

 

[David in NJ]

For 1800 years no Christian read the passage the way you do. End of argument.

Eliminate any notion of a supposed Pretrib Rapture and your questions are easily explained. Christ is coming back with the clouds, and he will harvest the earth. That is depicted in Rev 14.

The harvest will take place at the end of the age, on the last day...

Matt 13.39 ...The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

There will not be two harvests at the end of the age. Would you leave out of Christ's harvest those who overcome the Beast by their confession and by their endurance? I should think not!

But the assumption has to be made that this depiction originates with Dan 7, which is completely Postrib, involving the destruction of Antichrist. The lack of every detail of the 2nd Coming in each vision does not mean each depicted Coming is a separate Coming!

Rather, each account gives its own set of details to fill in all of the blanks. But every depiction easily fits into a single Postrib Coming.

Every depiction of the same relates back to Dan 7, and the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds to destroy Antichrist and to set up God's Kingdom upon the earth. The 2nd Coming, according to Jesus, will be a universal event, as lightning shining from east to west.

SEE Post #273

the Post-Trib Second Coming of the LORD was firmly established in Genesis chapters 1-7
and then repeated by the OT Prophets

 

[Randy Kluth]

Still waiting on a postribber to unpack the virgin parable.
If it fits a postrib rapture then I am wrong .
Please help me see the light.

The 10 Virgins parable

Pretrib doctrine is solid
you just proved you can not go to, or unpack the rapture verses.
no problem.
I see your retreat from the debate.

I'm sorry, but Pretrib Doctrine is *not* solid! There is not a single theological, doctrinal statement teaching explicit Pretrib Doctrine in the Bible! And that's why nobody has believed in it since the Early Church and up until the time Darby produced his new theory. That theory did not exist previously.

However, Pretrib can be explained as a phenomenon. Darby was apparently a very gifted teacher and a very spiritual man. There are some aspects, such as the Hope of Israel, that Darby espoused that I believe was very important and very good. However, the distinction between 2 Comings of Christ is not justified as Scriptural Doctrine--not at all!

Premil and Pretrib emerged at a time when Amll Doctrine had dominated for many centuries. But Pretrib was not an essential part in the restoration of Premill Doctrine. It was added by Darby because of the prophetic enthusiasm of the time, in which Christians wished to focus on the nearness of Christ's Coming here at the end of the ages. There is always the temptation to speculate, but also the supposed need to be "ready now."

However, we can be "ready now" simply by having our Eternal Life Insurance signed onto. We don't need to be expectantly looking up to heaven 24 7, trying to guess when the event will happen! All we need to do is to walk in righteousness on a daily basis to be "ready." It is not a matter of guessing when that event will happen!

 

[PinSeeker]

Who here believes the events of Revelation 20 to follow, chronologically, the events of Revelation 19? That seems to be the issue...

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here it is without any pollutants or additives;
Mat 25
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The 10 Virgins parable is not a problem for Postrib Teaching. Let me explain by using my own interpretation of the parable. Jesus was speaking, at the time, to Jews before the NT and before the Cross. At that time, Israel had been betrothed to God under the Law, but the Law had proven to be a barrier to the fulfillment of the Marriage, rather than its completion.

And so, Israel is depicted as "Virgins," and as "Bridesmaids," since they were not yet fully consummated in the Marriage. 10 depicts a complete number that can be divided equally into 5s. Half were under the Covenant of Law but would not consummate the Marriage by entering into the New Covenant. Half would ultimately succeed in consummating the Marriage.

This is simply a matter of belief in Christ and in expectation of his judgment on the basis of his righteousness. Many Jews have rejected Jesus and thus do not believe in his righteousness and therefore are not ready. Other Jews have accepted Jesus and are prepared by his righteousness. Ultimately, more Jews will enter in, as well, and as Christians be prepared for his Coming.

None of this in the least disproves Postrib Doctrine. We are to prepare now, to be ready now, so that when he comes, we will be able to fully consummate this Spiritual Marriage to Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Who here believes the events of Revelation 20 to follow, chronologically, the events of Revelation 19? That seems to be the issue...

Grace and peace to all.

I'm not completely dogmatic about it, but pretty close to it. Though the book of Revelation contains numerous visions, and several scenarios, there is a narrative sequence, requiring certain visions to take place in chronological order. That seems to be the case with Rev 19-20. The Millennium follows the 2nd Coming of Christ. The Kingdom follows the coming of the King.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm not completely dogmatic about it, but pretty close to it.

Not real sure what you mean by that, but okay.

Though the book of Revelation contains numerous visions, and several scenarios, there is a narrative sequence, requiring certain visions to take place in chronological order.

Well, I agree with this, but not sure I would see eye to eye with you regarding the particulars.

That seems to be the case with Rev 19-20. The Millennium follows the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Disagree with this. This is what I was saying in my original post above. Specifically, I think we should see what's described in Revelation 19:22-21 as a description of the same event described in Revelation 20:7-10.

The Kingdom follows the coming of the King.

Well... yes, but... You know, Jesus said two millennia ago ~ on numerous occasions ~ that the Kingdom was here...

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not real sure what you mean by that, but okay.

Well, I agree with this, but not sure I would see eye to eye with you regarding the particulars.


Disagree with this. This is what I was saying in my original post above. Specifically, I think we should see what's described in Revelation 19:22-21 as a description of the same event described in Revelation 20:7-10.


Well... yes, but... You know, Jesus said two millennia ago ~ on numerous occasions ~ that the Kingdom was here...

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

Not real sure what you mean by that, but okay.

Well, I was thinking the Rev 20 and 21 follow the 2nd Coming, and I've heard it said that the New Jerusalem is actually fulfilled in the Millennium. So I'm not sure if everything from Rev 19-21 is sequential. Also, I was raised in Lutheranism, which is Amillennial. So there's that.

But since I recommitted my life to Christ as a teenager, I've associated with Premillers. And I tend to think the sequence is Christ's Coming, the Millennium, and the New Jerusalem.

Well, I agree with this, but not sure I would see eye to eye with you regarding the particulars.


Disagree with this. This is what I was saying in my original post above. Specifically, I think we should see what's described in Revelation 19:22-21 as a description of the same event described in Revelation 20:7-10.


Well... yes, but... You know, Jesus said two millennia ago ~ on numerous occasions ~ that the Kingdom was here...

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

What is Rev 19.22-23? The Amil/Premil debate has been an ongoing thing in some of these forums, including this one. Some of it has gotten a bit "testy." But I'm perfectly willing to discuss it with you.

The Kingdom Now concept has its points--there is presently a spiritual aspect to the Kingdom being among us. Certainly it was true when Jesus was physically here with us on earth, among his Disciples.

However, the Kingdom is near, but is not yet here. That seems pretty plain in the Scriptures.