Abortion and deceit

[Jim B]

They should be treated like anyone else who is suffering. Why do these situations make it ok to treat the unborn as if they are not living? Why don't their lives matter to you?

Why doesn't suffering a painful, unavoidable death matter to you? Do you really take pleasure in the helpless, with no chance of living even for a short time, suffering in agony?

 

[GEN2REV]

Suppose the fetus doesn't have lungs that allow it to live more than a few minutes outside the womb, instead dying a painful death by suffocation. Is that really what you want? I challenge you to witness an event such as that and still retain your unrealistic ideology.

Do you have verifiable statistics to show what percentages of abortions are these dire circumstance cases?

 

[TLHKAJ]

Here are some excerpts from a website where abortion stats are given.

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States
by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 18 January 2016

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies.

Introduction: The reasons given for having abortions are relevant to the policy debate on the abortion issue. In many countries, abortions are permissible only for limited reasons.[1] In the United States, abortion on demand and for any reason is the existing state of law (with a few limitations in some states[2]). As debate continues regarding this practice, advocates of unrestrained abortion often cite the "hard cases"--cases of rape, incest, life or health of the mother or baby--in defending access to abortion. It is widely acknowledged that such cases are rare; however, available data suggest that some commonly cited figures are exaggerated.

Adopting the DOJ underreporting figures, average implied annual figures for 2005-2010 are as follows:

90,300 reported rapes (FBI figures);
265,000 total rapes, reported and unreported (using DOJ figures);
6,600 abortions in cases of rape (using Holmes et al. figures);
1,218,000 abortions (AGI figures);
0.54% of abortions in cases of rape.

Note that these statistical approaches carry large uncertainties. Circumstances surrounding both rape and abortion prompt degrees of both underreporting and inaccurate reporting. Regardless of the acutal rate of reporting, it is widely agreed that large numbers of rapes go unreported to authorities. Available information on reasons for abortion are generally self-reported by the abortion seeker and thus not verifiable. Some women seeking abortion might conceal rape as the actual reason. Alternately, some women might falsely claim rape as a reason, for example to obtain funding for an abortion (this appears to be an issue with federally funded abortions as discussed below). Thus, rape-related abortion data interpretation is hampered by the particularly traumatic circumstances of such cases. Nonetheless, it will be seen below that the larger sampling in states that report figures for rape-related abortions give consistent results, supporting the reasoning for lower figures than the AGI figures.

 

[EloyCraft]

Why doesn't suffering a painful, unavoidable death matter to you? Do you really take pleasure in the helpless, with no chance of living even for a short time, suffering in agony?

No, your comparison isn't valid You are comparing suffering that human life is subject to by nature with suffering that is The result of human will
They can't be compared.

 

[Pearl]

With respect, that's a popular cop-out among modern churchianity.

Lot was considered righteous for judging (recognizing) that the people who he lived among were absolutely evil and immoral.
2 Peter 2:7-8

It is very naive to believe we are to mind our own business as Christians and just ignore all of the evil that others do around us. If we have the Holy Spirit, we are incapable of not judging evil for exactly what it is.

Did Jesus simply ignore all of the clearly unholy people who were making a mockery of His Father's house?

It's supposed to bother us when the world completely disregards God and carries on in evil, unrighteous ways.
Psalms 119:139

If we know that evil is taking place and we don't speak up, it is accounted to our souls by God.
Proverbs 24:12

It's a modern LIE that we are not to judge others. That is a perversion of scripture. We are to judge righteous judgment. Basically, that just means you cannot judge hypocritically. If you, yourself, are not killing babies indiscriminately (and that is really the operative word in this debate 'indiscriminately'), and you know that others are, you are morally, and spiritually, within your rights to say it is evil.

The example that JB keeps throwing around about dire circumstance abortions is not the majority of cases, by far. Therefore, the legality of abortion allows indiscriminate access to the killing of unborn children.

And THAT is a crime in the eyes of God.

i agree there is evil and immorality out there - lots of it - and we see it and where we can we try to show people a better way. But Christians are often far too ready to point the finger at sinners, which we all were until Jesus called us to himself. Perhaps Christians pointed fingers at us for wrongful actions committed before we were born again, but don't you think that sort of pointing fingers puts people off Chrstianity - even when we know we are right.

 

[Jim B]

No, your comparison isn't valid You are comparing suffering that human life is subject to by nature with suffering that is The result of human will
They can't be compared.

So I challenge you to watch a newborn suffer and die an agonizing, painful death for the very short time that it "lives" and then tell me how that is in any way desirable.

 

[GEN2REV]

As debate continues regarding this practice, advocates of unrestrained [indiscriminate] abortion often cite the "hard cases"--cases of rape, incest, life or health of the mother or baby--in defending access to abortion.

(Emphasis and bracketing mine)

And this is what we're seeing in this thread repeatedly.

Wow. Nice job on locating and presenting this information.

Good find.

 

[GEN2REV]

i agree there is evil and immorality out there - lots of it - and we see it and where we can we try to show people a better way. But Christians are often far too ready to point the finger at sinners, which we all were until Jesus called us to himself. Perhaps Christians pointed fingers at us for wrongful actions committed before we were born again, but don't you think that sort of pointing fingers puts people off Christianity - even when we know we are right.

I think the concept of Christians "pointing the finger at sinners" is largely exaggerated, and even fictional, in many instances.

A lot of people who call Christians 'Judgy Judies' or self righteous/sanctimonious, etc. are actually complaining about their own inner guilt experienced when they are around Christians; talking from my own experience of knowing people who make these claims. The interesting thing is that the Bible actually says that the presence of the Holy Spirit causes those around the indwelled individual to feel guilty of their sins. So in that case, it is actually Jesus Himself, and His personal righteousness, that is causing sinners to feel guilty for their sins when they are around those who are indwelled with the Spirit or when they hear Truth presented that cuts them to their core.

I have never pointed the finger at anybody and called them sinners and this discussion in this thread cannot fall into that category because it is all anonymous. None of us know each other really and nobody is being actually singled out, but if anybody here feels any guilt for sins, in any thread of any kind, that is the will of the Holy Spirit and the dynamics of Truth being presented.

 

[TLHKAJ]

(Emphasis and bracketing mine)

And this is what we're seeing in this thread repeatedly.

Wow. Nice job on locating and presenting this information.

Good find.

Thank you. I remembered hearing the approximate figure that less than one percent of abortions were for difficult situations (the life or health of the mother, rape, incest). It seems that number was close. But I wanted specifics.

I know satanic ritual abuse survivors who desperately wanted their babies (and I was one). I know some who actually kept their babies who were conceived through rape/incest. I believe that most rape/incest victims want their babies. At least that's what I have personally witnessed.

 

[TLHKAJ]

 

[TLHKAJ]

 

[Jim B]

They should be treated like anyone else who is suffering. Why do these situations make it ok to treat the unborn as if they are not living? Why don't their lives matter to you?

Their lives matter to me but apparently not to you. Unlike yourself, I'm not a believer in making anyone suffer.

 

[lforrest]

I haven't watched NEWS in years because it was tantamount to ingesting trash.

It used to be tolerable, now if I see the news I am sure to be angered by what passes for journalism.

 

[Jim B]

It used to be tolerable, now if I see the news I am sure to be angered by what passes for journalism.

So how do you keep informed? There is a whole spectrum of news sources.

 

[TLHKAJ]

 

[TLHKAJ]

Former abortion doctor explains the realities of abortion and why he stopped performing them. He states that the risks to the life and health of the mother as well as future pregnancies (babies) are "not uncommon."

 

[Jim B]

Former abortion doctor explains the realities of abortion and why he stopped performing them.

So what. One person's opinion doesn't mean much, as there are more than one side to a discussion.

 

[lforrest]

So how do you keep informed? There is a whole spectrum of news sources.

Gateway pundit usually has links to important happenings.
When I see a change in the world I may investigate.
Listening to first hand accounts from the affected.

 

[TLHKAJ]

 

[TLHKAJ]