I got the message...the reason for my explanation as presented.
God says what He says...but, He is the judge and that judgement, in a instant case, very well could be....not guilty.
about Suicide
- Thread starter Big Boy Johnson
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God says what He says...but, He is the judge and that judgement, in a instant case, very well could be....not guilty.
Well you... believe wrong.
Yep... buyer beware!
Anytime I hear a preacher quoting from one of these newer translations, I know right off he's not one to pay attention to details which very, very probably means he has been deceived himself and as such he's a false teacher.
Using a newer translation is the first red flag!
That's hilarious... you think that if someone does not embrace self murder, they won't be saved!
And, what chapter and verse in God's Word says the Apostle Peter is the one posted at the entry of Heaven deciding who gets in and who doesn't???
God clearly says in His Word that if they destroy their body, He will destroy them.
That's true.,.. but as a matter of doctrine we cannot go around telling everyone that if they whack themselves they will go to Heaven because that's false doctrine. It's satan's message!
If someone was Christian and got brain damage and legitimately went nuts and God knew they no longer had the ability to know wrong from right... He may very well provide an exception for that person just like the thief on the Cross got to be with Jesus without having been baptized which is a good example.
But, to go around teaching in opposition to what God's Word says... is being a mouth piece for satan!
ALL those teaching that Christians who commit suicide will go to Heaven... are speaking in behalf of the devil and are working with him to deceive the masses whether that understand it or not.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Mr. Big Boy Johnson, please pay attention to this quote:
Individuals who commit suicide often have been struggling with serious problems, such as depression, alcoholism or other forms of drug abuse. Taking one’s life isn’t the right way to deal with any trial, but the people who do are more than likely not thinking clearly. Therefore, suicide does not automatically damn them to hell, but could be a sign of a person not thinking clearly. The Bible teaches that what determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell is whether they trust in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Faith in Christ changes us and gives us a new perspective in life. This is not perfect but substantial (Eph.2:4-9).
So the only question is if a person’s suicide was because they did not really know Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. That is what matters when talking about heaven or hell.
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The issue then is always the same:
Does a person have faith in Christ and therefore their sins are paid by the sacrifice of Christ, or do they not have faith in Christ and therefore must pay for all their own sins including suicide?
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Perhaps some are quick to judge and condemn people who take their own lives. But we should avoid the inclination to oversimplify this tragic type of death.
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I certainly hope this is the end of this ugly thread where one person seems to think that he knows God on these complicated and difficult issues.
Individuals who commit suicide often have been struggling with serious problems, such as depression, alcoholism or other forms of drug abuse. Taking one’s life isn’t the right way to deal with any trial, but the people who do are more than likely not thinking clearly. Therefore, suicide does not automatically damn them to hell, but could be a sign of a person not thinking clearly. The Bible teaches that what determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell is whether they trust in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Faith in Christ changes us and gives us a new perspective in life. This is not perfect but substantial (Eph.2:4-9).
So the only question is if a person’s suicide was because they did not really know Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. That is what matters when talking about heaven or hell.
---------------------------------------
The issue then is always the same:
Does a person have faith in Christ and therefore their sins are paid by the sacrifice of Christ, or do they not have faith in Christ and therefore must pay for all their own sins including suicide?
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Perhaps some are quick to judge and condemn people who take their own lives. But we should avoid the inclination to oversimplify this tragic type of death.
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I certainly hope this is the end of this ugly thread where one person seems to think that he knows God on these complicated and difficult issues.
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Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
@Big Boy Johnson
Well you... believe wrong.
@Carl Emerson
Then please explain how Jesus did not do what I just claimed.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
It is difficult to take you seriously when you make such flippant responses.
It is common for folks to use ridicule in a discussion when cornered by reason.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
There are many near death experiences that suggest otherwise. Most negative near death experiences, where people experience a hell experience have attempted suicide and been brought back to life. I did some research on it. Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics
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Not necessarily the case. You assume that you are the judge putting down things that aren't covered in scripture. The thief on the cross was killed for his sin, and Jesus (the judge) told him he would be in paradise. And there is no proof that he repented.
In fact we learn from scripture that it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those that deny Christ in the judgment. When people are killed for their sins it is already partial judgment passed on their souls. And perhaps that yields some type of mercy. And that is part of the old testament killing of sinners. So I don't think any man can say that people that commit suicide will definitely end up in hell, nor can they say they will not. I believe it is a gamble which is not wise.
The mind is like a computer and sometimes the software becomes corrupt from a malfunctioning brain, like the case for clinical (brain chemistry) depression. They can be driven to suicide uncontrollably, like a broken robot. Will God judge them harshly, or provide rest for damage to the soul that is not their fault. Those people should be put on medication to prevent such thoughts and compulsions to self harm, but if for some reason that is not available, then I don't think children are capable judges of their end state. The Father of the children is a capable judge.
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People are judged based on their entire life and what they have done within that lifetime. I doubt they are judged on a single act. The lack of logic here is astonishing.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
On the other hand, all people if they commit the smallest sin are guilty of the greater sin:
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Where is that in God's Word ? ? ?
Shouldn't we be quoting what God says in His Word... or, are other people's opinions more true than what the Lord says???
This IS covered in scripture.... Here's what the Lord said in His Word about killing your own body!
1 Corinthians 3:16,17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man destroys the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Those that self murder (commit suicide) are in violation of these biblical truths:
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
*Those that self murder failed to abide In Christ until
the end of their lives, therefore they will not be saved
John 15:1-6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Actually the lack of accepting what God says in His Word... is astonishing!
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
How does the passage in 1 Cor 3 refer to suicide when Paul states as follows...
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor 3 is a passage addressed to a church under persecution facing the danger of being martyred.
It is not referring to self harm, it is referring to being harmed.
I was thinking about this thread yesterday at work, and reflecting on the question above ( even though it hadn’t been added to the thread )
How many of us can honestly say that we have confessed every single sin we have committed in our lives, we will no doubt die with things we will still need to repent of……..
Also no one knows what takes place within as we die, including those who take their own lives.
Obviously some deaths are sudden, but isn’t this really about Gods mercy. That’s is Really what this thread is about, none of us know who, what ect God will show mercy too, that’s what we are sitting In Judgment on here.
Jesus showed compassion and mercy on many people during his lifetime, people who society and the religious people rejected and saw as unclean , sinners…….he reflected his fathers heart.
Rita
We are not setting in judgement here....we are interpreting God's word.
God's mercy is available and is extended to us by Him under certain conditions. Repentance is one.
Well I can honestly say that since my repentance and commitment to follow Christ I seek forgiveness at lease once and mostly twice daily in my prayers. I am always reminded that the Bible says.......... pray without ceasing.
Many rely on God's mercy without prayer and that will not get it.
I do not believe God will forgive us of our sins without repentance. His umbrella of grace is conditional of our being in compliance with His commandments. A very simple process....we sin...we repent...He forgives. Are there circumstances where God will for give without repentance ...I am sure there are...but, we know not when/where.
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Really, you're actually going to try and apply that scripture to suicide, "he who destroys the temple of God, him will I destroy"? What about the Mosaic law. Moses and his followers killed a lot of sinners. Destroyed a lot of temples?
Someone who actually understands that scripture has to come to the conclusion that it only applies to temples where God resides. Born again Christians of the spirit of God. And I highly doubt those are the people that commit suicide. And someone with a proper understanding would conclude that it was a warning against the Pharisees to not kill the new Christian followers of Jesus, the Messiah.
Some laws were meant for specific reason, and all are meant to not harm others in anyway, and in that show love for them, by not harming them. Yet Moses and his followers killed many people and so did God. And Moses is seen talking with Christ by his disciples. So he was saved.
And furthermore, you're still missing the point of the new testament, the Law is created to follow, and for those that faulter, Jesus will decide whom he will forgive thru the atonement. The entire point of Jesus the Christ being in existence was to make a way for sinners (you and me and all of us) to have a way to be saved.
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@Big Boy Johnson just curious, but in your views, does a person that kills themself cliff climbing or driving a car, or flying in an airplane, or going to war against an enemy, or being a police officer, or using tobacco and getting cancer. Many people accidentally kill themselves. And I don't think those people intentionally killed themselves.
So with your law, are those people going to hell?
And what about possessed people where the devil possessing them kills them in suicide. They didn't intentionally kill themselves. Like the swine where Jesus allowed the devils to enter when casting them out of people, or the following:
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.” 19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth. 21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
On a special note, Jesus killed himself at his fathers request. And I know he is the exception and that suicide is against the law for us sinners. And Jesus did visit spirit prison after laying down his life. And then visited the people he left on earth and ascended to heaven where he is king. But if laying down your life is necessarily a black and white sin for your judgment, do you think Jesus sinned in his final moment?
John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
Police, Military, and all Heroes and perhaps others fall into this category:
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
So with your law, are those people going to hell?
And what about possessed people where the devil possessing them kills them in suicide. They didn't intentionally kill themselves. Like the swine where Jesus allowed the devils to enter when casting them out of people, or the following:
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.” 19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth. 21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
On a special note, Jesus killed himself at his fathers request. And I know he is the exception and that suicide is against the law for us sinners. And Jesus did visit spirit prison after laying down his life. And then visited the people he left on earth and ascended to heaven where he is king. But if laying down your life is necessarily a black and white sin for your judgment, do you think Jesus sinned in his final moment?
John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
Police, Military, and all Heroes and perhaps others fall into this category:
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
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Are they not responsible for their actions? I think so the reason God has forgiveness under grace.
Are you saying being sinful and suicide is justified...therefore not responsible? If they have faith in Christ suicide will not be an option.
If we are not responsible for our sins then no reason for Christ to have died on the cross to establish grace.....?
I doubt God has much tolerance of self justification.
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Those examples are not suicide...why do you inject them into the topic?
Suicide is not friendly.
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