Against Gnosticism

[CoreIssue]

You'll have to actually quote what you are speaking of.

You claim souls are eternal. As well there are actual saints under the altar. Simple reality is there's not enough room under the altar for the saints. But there is room and, as with the prayer as being smoke, for their feelings and desires, exception to be there, which is what the soul lives.

The witch of Endor summoned the spirit of the prophet, not his soul.

So do you believe animals are on the new earth in Eternity?

 

[Episkopos]

You claim souls are eternal.

I never claimed that

As well there are actual saints under the altar.

martyrs

Simple reality is there's not enough room under the altar for the saints. But there is room and, as with the prayer as being smoke, for their feelings and desires, exception to be there, which is what the soul lives.

The witch of Endor summoned the spirit of the prophet, not his soul.

So do you believe animals are on the new earth in Eternity?

The rest is too jumbled for me to respond.

Where does it say that Samuel's spirit was summoned? Find the word "spirit" in the text.



PS. The words "familiar spirit" are not in the text. They are a translation device.

 

[CoreIssue]

Samuel's

I never claimed that

Where does it say that Samuel's spirit was summoned? Find the word "spirit" in the text.



PS. The words "familiar spirit" are not in the text. They are a translation device.

1 Samuel 28
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

 

[Episkopos]

1 Samuel 28
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

This is not written that way in the Hebrew. If you want to get into the occult passages...it is the subject of another thread and really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is not written that way in the Hebrew. If you want to get into the occult passages...it is the subject of another thread and really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

1 samuel 28 - Interlinear Bible Search

The Hebrew is there.

8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, "Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you."

.$,leY;w ~yirex]a#st0312 ~yid'g.B#st0899 v;B.liY;w l.Wa'v feP;x.tiY;w ? h'Via'h -l,a .Wa{b'Y;w w{Mi[ ~yiv'n]a#st08147 yen.v.W a.Wh ? yil][;h.w bw{a'B yil yimw{s'q r,ma{Y;w h'l.y'l ? .$Iy'lea r;m{a -r,v]a tea yil

9 But the woman said to him, "Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are
mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?"

tea 'T.[;d'y h'T;a heNih wy'lea h'Via'h r,ma{T;w ? tw{b{a'h#st0178 -t,a tyir.kih r,v]a l.Wa'v#st07586 h'f'[ -r,v]a ? veQ;n.tim h'T;a h'm'l.w #,r'a'h -nim yin{[.DiY;h -t,a.w ? yinetyim]h;l yiv.p;n.B


The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 0178 [URL='http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/owb.html']Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
bwa from the same as (01) (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'owb TWOT - 37a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
obe Noun Masculine
Definition

1. water skin bottle
2. necromancer
   1. necromancer, one who evokes the dead
   2. ghost, spirit of a dead one
   3. practice of necromancy
3. one that has a familiar spirit

[/URL]

 

[farouk]

For example, my definitions:
Body: is pretty obvious. The organic physical thing that was created in your mother's womb, now moves around with you, and will continue to exist (and decay) after your death.
Spirit: isn't something you can just see with your eyes, still is important. It's the incorporeal part of thoughts, wills, personality, etc. The most obvious example you'll see is upon death: a person's spirit leaves their body and now no one is "home" so to say. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit.
Soul: body + spirit.

There's a whole bunch of other definitions in philosophy, theology, and people's just general perceptions.

It's interesting that Romans 8 has both flesh (sarx) and body (soma). If one mixes them up - as some Bible versions do - the result can be confusing.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

It's interesting that Romans 8 has both flesh (sarx) and body (soma). If one mixes them up - as some Bible versions do - the result can be confusing.

For my thoughts: Romans 8 is not a statement talking about the philosophy behind different parts of a person. Rather, it's focusing on stating "you need to get your hold self to God"

 

[farouk]

That is helpful. I know many people (including myself) which would have used different definitions for those.

There is a verse someplace that speaks of 'spirit, soul and body...' (in that order), interestingly.

 

[CoreIssue]

2. Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body)

 

[Enoch111]

There is a verse someplace that speaks of 'spirit, soul and body...' (in that order), interestingly.

That verse is found in I Thess 5: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (v 23)

This verse is telling us that from God's perspective the spirit has the first priority, then the soul, and finally the body. From man's perspective, it would be the reverse. However, when a Christian dies, his soul and spirit go to be with Christ, while the body lies in the grave as though asleep. Hence "those who sleep in Jesus". Soul Sleep is false doctrine, since the soul and spirit are very much alive in Heaven.

 

[CoreIssue]

That verse is found in I Thess 5: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (v 23)

This verse is telling us that from God's perspective the spirit has the first priority, then the soul, and finally the body. From man's perspective, it would be the reverse. However, when a Christian dies, his soul and spirit go to be with Christ, while the body lies in the grave as though asleep. Hence "those who sleep in Jesus". Soul Sleep is false doctrine, since the soul and spirit are very much alive in Heaven.

Indeed, our eternal spirit should come first. Our soul, meaning our total being next and our flesh last.

 

[ScottA]

Now there are various degrees of Gnosticsm...and it leads different people to different conclusions. But the essence is this. It is a denial that we are NOT our bodies nor our spirits...but a living soul caught somewhere between the two.

Gnosticism denies the responsibility of actually BEING holy and uses as a excuse that the body is evil of itself. So then this denies that Jesus was a man like us....that somehow His flesh was different to ours.

Strange... I have been accused or assumed to be Gnostic, but would agree with align with none of that. Hmmm.

 

[Episkopos]

Strange... I have been accused or assumed to be Gnostic, but would agree with align with none of that. Hmmm.

What do you think people were reacting to?

 

[ScottA]

What do you think people were reacting to?

Most of those accusations end with the word "spiritualizing", with the idea that it is bad to seek and to walk in the form of God Himself. They are wrong, dead wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

Real spiritual advancement changes us and the world around us through an actual power and perception. It is more than just in the mind...it is the actual presence of God being manifest to us by being in the Spirit.

But there is a counterfeit to this whereby one convinces himself...or is somehow convinced that he is in another state...but with no power, or evidence to this. It is ALL in the mind.

Some of the touch points of this is:

Saving knowledge

Now this could be a real experience of God followed by a walk in His presence...OR....a false assumption that knowledge ABOUT salvation makes one saved.

So it comes down to knowing God...or just knowing ABOUT God.

 

[Episkopos]

Most of those accusations end with the word "spiritualizing", with the idea that it is bad to seek and to walk in the form of God Himself. They are wrong, dead wrong.

Agreed. When we speak of actual encounter with God...this seems mystical to many and some of these will assume that this kind of "knowledge" of God is the same as Gnosticism.

But Gnosticism is a heresy that REPLACES the truth with a fable. There is no real contact with God in Gnosticism...or else there was a single encounter followed by a lot of suppositions.

We are always fully responsible for the actions we undertake and the words we speak.

 

[ScottA]

Saving knowledge

Now this could be a real experience of God followed by a walk in His presence...OR....a false assumption that knowledge ABOUT salvation makes one saved.

So it comes down to knowing God...or just knowing ABOUT God.

That is a good definition.

The mechanics of this issue come from a belief that centers on our worldly experience, rather than the renewing of our mind to the eternal realities of God and the kingdom. Time, is the greatest stumbling block.

 

[Episkopos]

Gnosticism is holding the truth...yes...but in unrighteousness. That means a person who focuses solely on the spiritual world while denying that there is a physical world to ALSO get things right in. It is a schizoid worldview...where the Spirit is all important (which it is) but without fulfilling ALL righteousness.

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Enter Jesus.

Jesus was BOTH very spiritual.....AND...very righteous. Jesus even submitted to the baptism of repentance from John...although not guilty of any sin...just so that His followers would do the same. IOW Jesus took responsibility for HIS actions...even though He didn't really need to. It was for others He did this. This is what constitutes fulfilling ALL righteousness.

So we are to be followers of Jesus Christ...not just "spiritual". We are to be spiritual IN Christ. And this means that we walk in the power that overcomes all sin. We too are to fulfill ALL righteousness...through faith in Christ and the grace given to us by the resurrection power of Jesus..

 

[ScottA]

Gnosticism is holding the truth...yes...but in unrighteousness. That means a person who focuses solely on the spiritual world while denying that there is a physical world to ALSO get things right in. It is a schizoid worldview...where the Spirit is all important (which it is) but without fulfilling ALL righteousness.

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Enter Jesus.

Jesus was BOTH very spiritual.....AND...very righteous. Jesus even submitted to the baptism of repentance from John...although not guilty of any sin...just so that His followers would do the same. IOW Jesus took responsibility for HIS actions...even though He didn't really need to. It was for others He did this. This is what constitutes fulfilling ALL righteousness.

So we are to be followers of Jesus Christ...not just "spiritual". We are to be spiritual IN Christ. And this means that we walk in the power that overcomes all sin. We too are to fulfill ALL righteousness...through faith in Christ and the grace given to us by the resurrection power of Jesus..

That would suggest that the object is to "abide", even remain, in the world in a state of living like Christ. But the bigger picture of what it means to follow Christ would be incomplete at that, and rather should be complete, just as it is with Him:

• Born of the flesh
• Overcome with Him in His death and resurrection
• Born again of the spirit of God
• Go to the Father (whom is [only] spirit)

...Which makes the endgame a spiritual existence with God, not something bound up with or needing of the flesh. We are here to die to the sinful nature of the flesh, to regain what was lost in being cast down to this lowly existence, the judgement for sin against God, not to use it as a stepping stone to spirituality. On the contrary, we are in need of rescue from it.

 

[bbyrd009]

...Which makes the endgame a spiritual existence with God, not something bound up with or needing of the flesh.

so then "the flesh profits nothing" right, and "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?"