Am I the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7?

[rebuilder 454]

Let us examine this my friend .
Before coming TO CHRIST i did many sins , sins i had no conscious that were wrong or even sin .
YET later , when by grace i was drawn to FAITH in CHRIST and my heart changed
SIN became exceeding sinful to me , AKA i became aware of its evil , i now see the sin in my flesh
as A MONSTER . no longer do i have any peace in sin , rather its but a vexation to my soul
when the flesh arises to pop them lustful thoughts into my head . SO yeah . Just a reminder my friend .
One it seems you might already know yourself . too many just love to twist romans seven
as they do other scrips unto their own destruction . SIN , i became aware of it AS SIN , DIED TO IT etc .
hate it now . That occured AFTER having come to CHRIST .
the more i read that bible , the more by grace sin became more evil to me
and soon i too had to cry for the LORD to save me even from my own flesh and evils . A deep need
FOR JESUS grew and grew and grew . I came to the realization that all are evil and there is no good in the flesh
BUT THAT IN JESUS CHRIST we can OVERCOME and shall overcome .

It seems to me most everyone here would greatly greatly benefit by reading Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan.
It used to be required reading it almost every Bible College, but in this modern day I kind of doubt it, and I think it's one of the reasons people cannot discern and grasp the fact that Paul said he picked up his cross daily .Paul said I've been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who died for me. Paul said he died daily. Paul knew and taught that you can either walk in the Spirit or Walk In the Flesh as a believer.
I think it could be that a lot of people here don't understand walking in the Spirit
it must be an abstract or something.
John the Revelator said " I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day..."
that tells you right there that he was not always in the Spirit.

Note the cap "s"

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'm not asking you to explain the New Testament. Paul is using the Law concerning marriage as an analogy. If you can't explain the analogy, how can you claim to understand the chapter?


What language in the passage supports your contention that he had his epiphany before he received the spirit of Christ? Your view seems forced.

I don't think you are paying attention to the passage. You seem to ignore verses that contradict your view. Consider the following verse for instance.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

The question is, "Who WILL set me free . . . " indicating what will happen in the future. Unless you want to claim that Paul plans to be come a Christian in the future, this verse contradicts your view.

The 7 letters to the 7 churches are the nuclear bomb against the sinless believers.
Plus 1 john says if anyone says he is without sin he is a liar.
Paul called himself the chief of sinners in 1timothy

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'm not asking you to explain the New Testament. Paul is using the Law concerning marriage as an analogy. If you can't explain the analogy, how can you claim to understand the chapter?


What language in the passage supports your contention that he had his epiphany before he received the spirit of Christ? Your view seems forced.

I don't think you are paying attention to the passage. You seem to ignore verses that contradict your view. Consider the following verse for instance.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

The question is, "Who WILL set me free . . . " indicating what will happen in the future. Unless you want to claim that Paul plans to be come a Christian in the future, this verse contradicts your view.

Again Peter is partially right. We do see the hopelessness that they which were under the law were never able to attain to holiness. I can tell you right now where Peter got off.
He is thinking that sinlessness is the same as holiness.
When Jesus died on the cross and we as lost humanoids became born again, we could see that there was a major change in our lives.
The problem is every human is three parts ; Spirit, soul, and body. It is your spirit where God inhabits you.
The soul and the body do not know you're saved ,and that is why we have the renewing of the Mind to bend our Earthly natural self to conform to the holy requirements of God.
So no matter what anybody says Paul demonstrates the struggle.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

Good morning Peterlag, And how are you all? No Sir, I thought I might mention, that Christ said, He came to fulfill the law.

But, I also was looking at: To Do Or Not To Do

Love, Walter

 

[CadyandZoe]

The 7 letters to the 7 churches are the nuclear bomb against the sinless believers.
Plus 1 john says if anyone says he is without sin he is a liar.
Paul called himself the chief of sinners in 1timothy

I'm uncertain that I understand the letters to the churches, but I agree.

 

[Peterlag]

Good morning Peterlag, And how are you all? No Sir, I thought I might mention, that Christ said, He came to fulfill the law.

But, I also was looking at: To Do Or Not To Do

Love, Walter

He came to fulfill the Law to Israel. Not to the Christian. What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.

The present administration of God is in the time period of the New Testament known as Grace. It deals with the new covenant, and it belongs to the time that is called the administration of the mystery. It's a period in time that was not made known to any one prior to this administration because God kept it a secret since the world began. From this our Grace administration, we learn God’s secret purpose that He had placed in Himself, according to the administration of Grace, which was first revealed to the apostle Paul.

If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

 

[Peterlag]

I'm not asking you to explain the New Testament. Paul is using the Law concerning marriage as an analogy. If you can't explain the analogy, how can you claim to understand the chapter?


What language in the passage supports your contention that he had his epiphany before he received the spirit of Christ? Your view seems forced.

I don't think you are paying attention to the passage. You seem to ignore verses that contradict your view. Consider the following verse for instance.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

The question is, "Who WILL set me free . . . " indicating what will happen in the future. Unless you want to claim that Paul plans to be come a Christian in the future, this verse contradicts your view.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The next verse will...

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I serve God in the renewed mind. Victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

But if you don't have the spirit or not walking in the spirit because you are still in the flesh then you are still dead in your sins and have the body of death hanging around your neck. But like Romans 8 says... you are not in the flesh if the spirit is in you. Now you can't see this because you believe Paul had two natures and so you tell me I'm stupid.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

He came to fulfill the Law to Israel. Not to the Christian. What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.

The present administration of God is in the time period of the New Testament known as Grace. It deals with the new covenant, and it belongs to the time that is called the administration of the mystery. It's a period in time that was not made known to any one prior to this administration because God kept it a secret since the world began. From this our Grace administration, we learn God’s secret purpose that He had placed in Himself, according to the administration of Grace, which was first revealed to the apostle Paul.

If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

Romans 3:31


​

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Read full chapter

 

[CadyandZoe]

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The next verse will...

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I serve God in the renewed mind. Victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

But if you don't have the spirit or not walking in the spirit because you are still in the flesh then you are still dead in your sins and have the body of death hanging around your neck. But like Romans 8 says... you are not in the flesh if the spirit is in you. Now you can't see this because you believe Paul had two natures and so you tell me I'm stupid.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So you can't explain the analogy then?

 

[amigo de christo]

It seems to me most everyone here would greatly greatly benefit by reading Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan.
It used to be required reading it almost every Bible College, but in this modern day I kind of doubt it, and I think it's one of the reasons people cannot discern and grasp the fact that Paul said he picked up his cross daily .Paul said I've been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who died for me. Paul said he died daily. Paul knew and taught that you can either walk in the Spirit or Walk In the Flesh as a believer.
I think it could be that a lot of people here don't understand walking in the Spirit
it must be an abstract or something.
John the Revelator said " I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day..."
that tells you right there that he was not always in the Spirit.

Note the cap "s"

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

actually your last part about john not always being in the SPIRIT is not what that implies .
IT simply implies He was in the SPIRIT , ON THE LORDS DAY . meaning the day of the LORD and what would ential thereon
was shown HIM while He was caught UP in the SPIRIT .

 

[quietthinker]

The question is, "Who WILL set me free . . . " indicating what will happen in the future. Unless you want to claim that Paul plans to be come a Christian in the future, this verse contradicts your view.

Why future? Why not present continuous? Why not in Christ as opposed to in me?
Romans 5:15-19 tells me five times how it works.

 

[Peterlag]

So you can't explain the then?

I gave you my take on Romans 7. You can call it analogy or anything else that you want to see there. I don't see a comparison between things that have similar features. I only see the spirit of Christ. Paul put it this way...

I live by the faith of the Son of God...

If Paul in Galatians 2:20 says he's crucified in the flesh. But he still lives, but not him, but Christ. Then I gotta think he's referring to the Christ within. The new nature. And that is the spirit of Christ, which we can shorten to spirit. Then it's the faith from the spirit. Well, one of the operations or manifestations of the spirit is faith.

 

[Peterlag]

Romans 3:31​

​

​

​

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Read full chapter

How do we establish the Law?

Here's a couple of verses from that same chapter that are not taken out of context...

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[Peterlag]

We are taught "to be in the spirit" means to walk upright in our flesh or to have our flesh in fellowship with God. So we read right over the many verses such as Peter and John were filled with the spirit. Or "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Romans talks about no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Christians everywhere do not seem to understand the words "in him" or "in Christ" or "filled with the spirit." We can't see ourselves walking by the spirit because we are taught that the operations of the spirit are things we operate through our flesh. They are not the manifestations of you. They are of the spirit. We are also taught that we are sinners and this is another reason why we can't see the spirit as long as we see ourselves as a piece of trash. To see it we have to see ourselves as the righteousness of God in him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why future? Why not present continuous? Why not in Christ as opposed to in me?
Romans 5:15-19 tells me five times how it works.

The phrase "who will deliver" is in the future tense.

[ῥύσεται :to deliver, verb - indicative - future]

 

[CadyandZoe]

I gave you my take on Romans 7. You can call it analogy or anything else that you want to see there. I don't see a comparison between things that have similar features. I only see the spirit of Christ. Paul put it this way...

Your take is incorrect. I am trying to help you see why in a collegial way. The first half of Romans 7 is an analogy. And, contrary to your perspective, although Paul says that he is speaking to those who know the Law, he explicates the particular law he has in mind. He uses the Law concerning marriage to make another point. And is point is neither critical of the Law, the Jews or Israel.

In other words, Paul's argument doesn't depend on familiarity with the Law since he explicates the section of the Law that he intends to use in his analogy. In this case, he gives both a referent and an analog. If you don't know the analog, then you don't understand the passage. Simple as that.

 

[Peterlag]

Your take is incorrect. I am trying to help you see why in a collegial way. The first half of Romans 7 is an analogy. And, contrary to your perspective, although Paul says that he is speaking to those who know the Law, he explicates the particular law he has in mind. He uses the Law concerning marriage to make another point. And is point is neither critical of the Law, the Jews or Israel.

In other words, Paul's argument doesn't depend on familiarity with the Law since he explicates the section of the Law that he intends to use in his analogy. In this case, he gives both a referent and an analog. If you don't know the analog, then you don't understand the passage. Simple as that.

You say if I don't believe your take then I don't understand. Or if I don't respond to your view then you say I don't understand Romans 7. I disagree with you. Paul is talking about the Jewish Law throughout the entire chapter mentioning a few times how it's different from the Christians. I simply do not see what you see. So yeah I disagree with you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You say if I don't believe your take then I don't understand. Or if I don't respond to your view then you say I don't understand Romans 7. I disagree with you. Paul is talking about the Jewish Law throughout the entire chapter mentioning a few times how it's different from the Christians. I simply do not see what you see. So yeah I disagree with you.

You might see what I see if you were interested in the point that PAUL wanted to make instead of the point YOU wanted to make.

 

[Peterlag]

You might see what I see if you were interested in the point that PAUL wanted to make instead of the point YOU wanted to make.

We split on the bottom line. I say Paul is not talking to Christians when he refers to his old man. You believe he is. He's telling his Jewish friends he still has a sin nature which is what they had under the Law. You believe he's talking to Christians saying I still have a sin nature as a Christian. I don't care about anything else in that chapter. How it's written, the figures of speech used, how the first half of the chapter is different from the bottom half. All I'm interested in since I'm not Jewish is the bottom line, which is he walks with God in his mind in the spirit as a Christian and those still in the flesh without the spirit of Christ serve their sin.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We split on the bottom line. I say Paul is not talking to Christians when he refers to his old man. You believe he is. He's telling his Jewish friends he still has a sin nature which is what they had under the Law. You believe he's talking to Christians saying I still have a sin nature as a Christian. I don't care about anything else in that chapter. How it's written, the figures of speech used, how the first half of the chapter is different from the bottom half. All I'm interested in since I'm not Jewish is the bottom line, which is he walks with God in his mind in the spirit as a Christian and those still in the flesh without the spirit of Christ serve their sin.

For someone who claims to know the meaning of Romans 7, you say things that reveal to me you don't actually know what Romans 7 means. Paul never mentions his "old man" anywhere in the passage. And yes, he is talking to Jewish Christians living in Rome. He isn't talking to Jewish unbelievers.

Secondly, if you are NOT interested in Paul's use of language, then you are not interested in his meaning, and if you are not interested in what he means to tell you, then how can you claim to understand what he said?

Your bottom line, it seems to me, is the imaginary message of your own making. I knew this about you, which is why I asked you to explain Paul's analogy, so that you might come to know yourself better. Why? So you have an opportunity to change your mind and allow Paul to teach you.