Amillenialism, True or False?

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

A naive point of view is one that can only see things in a simple way that cannot discern deeper realities. You completely ignored scriptures like:

[Jesus], Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3:22​

And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Ephesians 1:19-22​

You obviously don't realize the import of the message that the kingdom of God must rule over sin first and foremost. Full dominion over the kingdoms of the world is a process that takes time because the temple must first be built. But you can only see the kingdom from a carnal viewpoint; thus your simple-minded responses. IMO, your viewpoint makes you an enemy of the cross.

IMO, your "deeper realities" are a QUAGMIRE of superspiritual nonsense! You are basing your theological interpretations and opinions upon the human, English translations of God's Word instead of just looking at God's Word directly! Neither 1 Peter 3:21-22 nor Ephesians 1:19-22 give any credence to the opinion that Yeshua` is currently reigning! Find me ONE place where Yeshua` is said to be reigning currently! These two passages do not.

 

[Ridgerunner]

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And yet, how is it that God defined the 'days' of His creation back at Gen.1, even with the first day before the sun and moon were set?

Christ's future Millennium reign is actually a pause just prior to the start of God's Eternity. It represents a seventh day of rest with the previous thousand year periods having begun with Adam (around 4004 B.C.).

Once again your rebuttal is nothing more then unproven assumptions. Where is the supporting Scripture that proves this doctrine you espouse that is clearly built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles?

We have been already, spiritually that is. Not literally yet. That literal being made kings and priests is still to come

LOL And this from the guy who accuses amilleniasts of spiritualizing Scripture to support their view! Then why does Scripture state we have already been made kings?
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

What Amillennialists forget (or willingly omit) from Scripture is Christ's literal return to this earth how He ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives (Acts 1; Zech.14). Those who say Christ's second coming is not a literal return how He ascended have denied that Scripture witness as written, along with the many events to occur on earth associated with it as written, which if all that Scripture were put together would probably make up about one quarter of God's Word. How should one of Christ's servants treat a doctrine that openly denies that much of His written Word?

Nothing in the amilleniasts doctrine denies that the second coming of Christ is literal. His second coming takes place at the last trump (1Cor15:52, Rev10:6-7 and Rev11:15) Your baseless accusations only show your gross misunderstanding that lead you to make false and baseless accusations. Not all amilleniasts are preterists. Many believe the preterists interpretation of Scripture to be in error. I for one do believe that both preterist and futurist (regardless of pre, mid or post trib views) are in error. You do have a proclivity to jump to conclusions based on false assumptions as this conversation has clearly demonstrated.

That's how one can know a doctrine that teaches our Lord Jesus' second coming is only meant spiritually is a lie, simply because if that were true, then it would also suggest that even Christ's first coming never happened literally either, and that it was only a spiritual coming too! Just who would want a believer on Jesus Christ to be fooled by the spiritualizing of His advents to this earth? That's easy, the false Jews, those who reject Christ's second literal coming of the future just as strongly as they rejected His first literal coming.

Maybe you should take that issue up with someone who does not believe that the second coming is a literal event. As I have already stated the second coming occurs at the last trump (1Cor15:52, Rev10:6-7 and Rev11:15) Or is this just more of your deceptive tactics by trying t make it appear as if I believe differently then I really do. LOL at least gain an understanding of another’s view so you can debate the merits of that persons view rather then attacking them for something they don’t believe and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
My friemd if you would put a fraction of the effort into understanding the views others hold as you do defending your doctrine you might be surprised by the result.

 

[Rach1370]

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Once again your rebuttal is nothing more then unproven assumptions. Where is the supporting Scripture that proves this doctrine you espouse that is clearly built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles?


LOL And this from the guy who accuses amilleniasts of spiritualizing Scripture to support their view! Then why does Scripture state we have already been made kings?
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth


Nothing in the amilleniasts doctrine denies that the second coming of Christ is literal. His second coming takes place at the last trump (1Cor15:52, Rev10:6-7 and Rev11:15) Your baseless accusations only show your gross misunderstanding that lead you to make false and baseless accusations. Not all amilleniasts are preterists. Many believe the preterists interpretation of Scripture to be in error. I for one do believe that both preterist and futurist (regardless of pre, mid or post trib views) are in error. You do have a proclivity to jump to conclusions based on false assumptions as this conversation has clearly demonstrated.


Maybe you should take that issue up with someone who does not believe that the second coming is a literal event. As I have already stated the second coming occurs at the last trump (1Cor15:52, Rev10:6-7 and Rev11:15) Or is this just more of your deceptive tactics by trying t make it appear as if I believe differently then I really do. LOL at least gain an understanding of another’s view so you can debate the merits of that persons view rather then attacking them for something they don’t believe and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
My friemd if you would put a fraction of the effort into understanding the views others hold as you do defending your doctrine you might be surprised by the result.

Oh...amen and well done. And also...so very true! Sometimes, people really need to stop and look in a mirror.

 

[veteran]

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Once again your rebuttal is nothing more then unproven assumptions. Where is the supporting Scripture that proves this doctrine you espouse that is clearly built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles?

Where did God first establish the idea of His day per Scripture? You've got to be kiddin' me. Gen.1:5.

LOL And this from the guy who accuses amilleniasts of spiritualizing Scripture to support their view!

Then why does Scripture state we have already been made kings?

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

The Rev.5:9 verse goes with that 10th verse...

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

That redemption "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation", being made kings and priests reigning literally ON THE EARTH is future timeline Scripture.

As of the present time, the Rev.1:6 verse is only 'spiritually'... manfiest through Christ's elect on earth today. One day, it will be LITERAL per the Rev.5:9-10 verses, and it's for when the redemption by Christ happens, at the "last trump" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, or did you miss when that change at the twinkling of an eye is to occur?

Nothing in the amilleniasts doctrine denies that the second coming of Christ is literal. His second coming takes place at the last trump (1Cor15:52, Rev10:6-7 and Rev11:15) Your baseless accusations only show your gross misunderstanding that lead you to make false and baseless accusations. Not all amilleniasts are preterists. Many believe the preterists interpretation of Scripture to be in error. I for one do believe that both preterist and futurist (regardless of pre, mid or post trib views) are in error. You do have a proclivity to jump to conclusions based on false assumptions as this conversation has clearly demonstrated.

Amil denies the future "thousand years" reign of Christ Jesus literally on earth. That position includes those who believe that "thousand years" of Rev.20 is symbolic only, but still recognize Christ's future second coming as literal. Is that what you want me to say? Their idea is that Christ's Church is NOW reigning on earth, WITHOUT Christ's literal return, and without our literally being made priests and kings!

Amil also... includes those who flat deny any... literal second coming of Christ Jesus back to this earth.

Why are both... of those views false? Simply because the Biblical signs written to occur to go along with that time of Christ's reiging over ALL nations with His "rod of iron" and elect priests and kings has NOT... manifested yet on this earth!

And it will NOT... happen UNTIL... a false one appears on earth first to rule over all nations like Christ revealed in His Revelation to His servant John! TOO MANY Scriptures have to be denied to believe Christ is reigning over all nations today! The things going on in today's world DO NOT FIT THOSE BIBLICAL SIGNS of Christ's literal future reign with His elect on earth. Someone brainwashed into believing that literal coming reign by Christ has already happened today, are following a CULT, and not Christian Doctrine from God's Word. And that CULT is today's "New World Order" globalist system, a false system.

 

[Ridgerunner]

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Where did God first establish the idea of His day per Scripture? You've got to be kiddin' me. Gen.1:5.

Nothing inGen1:5 suggests that the seventh day is 1000 years nor does it prove the millennial view as you suggested in postin post#20. You claim it represents the seventh day a day of rest just before the eternal kingdom yet there is not a single verse that says this. Can you provide Scripture that says the millennium represents the seventh day of rest before God’s eternal kigdom? Why would Satan be loosed part way through this day of rest?

The Rev.5:9 verse goes with that 10th verse...

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

That redemption "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation", being made kings and priests reigning literally ON THE EARTH is future timeline Scripture.

Hast is past tense my friend, as verse 9 and 10 both use the term hast it is clear that this is past tense. In addition verse 9 uses the term wast demonstrating once again a term representing past tense. IOf you want to believe future it is certainly your choice as you are led friend as you are led!

As of the present time, the Rev.1:6 verse is only 'spiritually'... manfiest through Christ's elect on earth today. One day, it will be LITERAL per the Rev.5:9-10 verses, and it's for when the redemption by Christ happens, at the "last trump" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, or did you miss when that change at the twinkling of an eye is to occur?

LOL and you accuse others of spiritualizing. Clearly Rev1:6 uses the term hath which is past tense, and as we all know the last trump has not occurred. If you want to claim that hath isn’t past so you can justify the false belief that we won’t be made kings until the future when the last trump occurs that is your choice. But as all can see Rev1:6 clearly says “hath made us kings”, like it or not my friend that is past tense, not future! As you are led friend, as you are led!

Amil denies the future "thousand years" reign of Christ Jesus literally on earth. That position includes those who believe that "thousand years" of Rev.20 is symbolic only, but still recognize Christ's future second coming as literal. Is that what you want me to say? Their idea is that Christ's Church is NOW reigning on earth, WITHOUT Christ's literal return, and without our literally being made priests and kings!

Incorrect the amil view recognizes that God uses figurative language to describe how He reigns during the Christian era. One can deny the many Scriptures Like Rev1:9, Rev1:6 Rev5:10 etc ..but the fact remains Christ is already reigning. Just because he has not placed all his enemies underfoot does not mean He is not reigning after all Scripture tells us He reigns until He has placed all enemies under foot..

Amil also... includes those who flat deny any... literal second coming of Christ Jesus back to this earth.

There may be some who hold the amil view that believe that way, but not all who hold the amil view believe that. There will be a literal second coming at the last trump and all who are alive at that time will be able to se it with their own eyes. Might I suggest yiou actually take the time to learn the belief and variations of a view so you don’t make false statements. In reality most amils recognize that the Lord will physically return at the last/7[sup]th[/sup] trump.

Why are both... of those views false? Simply because the Biblical signs written to occur to go along with that time of Christ's reiging over ALL nations with His "rod of iron" and elect priests and kings has NOT... manifested yet on this earth!

Just because one rules with a rod of iron does not mean that all are in submission. Remember in 1 Cor we are told Christ must reign until all his enemies are placed underfoot.
1Co 15:25-26 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
As the above verses demonstarate Christ reigns until all His enemies are placed under foot. One of those enemies is death, which is not destroyed until the last/7[sup]th[/sup] trump.

And it will NOT... happen UNTIL... a false one appears on earth first to rule over all nations like Christ revealed in His Revelation to His servant John! TOO MANY Scriptures have to be denied to believe Christ is reigning over all nations today!

Actually I would say the opposite, is true to deny that Christ is reigning now one must deny that John himself told us he was already in the kingdom of Christ (Rev1:9). One must also deny that we have already been made kings (Rev1:6and Rev5:10). I could go on but what’s the point you have already demonstrated that in your interpretation hast and have or not past tense and that your doctrine trumps what Scripture undeniably states.

The things going on in today's world DO NOT FIT THOSE BIBLICAL SIGNS of Christ's literal future reign with His elect on earth. Someone brainwashed into believing that literal coming reign by Christ has already happened today, are following a CULT, and not Christian Doctrine from God's Word. And that CULT is today's "New World Order" globalist system, a false system.

Once again as has been demonstrated you choose to ignore the simple truth of God’s word to stand by a doctrine and then when you can’t prove the validity of your view resort to personally attacking those who disagree with you. How sad. I feel sorry for one who must resort to such tactics; I will keep you in my prayers!! As you are led friend, as you are led!

 

[veteran]

Nothing inGen1:5 suggests that the seventh day is 1000 years nor does it prove the millennial view as you suggested in postin post#20. You claim it represents the seventh day a day of rest just before the eternal kingdom yet there is not a single verse that says this. Can you provide Scripture that says the millennium represents the seventh day of rest before God’s eternal kigdom? Why would Satan be loosed part way through this day of rest?

What? Have I now got to try and explain to you how the time of Christ's second coming involves usage of the word 'day', and how Peter described how long a 'day' can mean to God? How is it, you didn't catch the Gen.1:5 to a 'day' is per God's timeline for a day, since He had not yet established the 24 hr. day yet with the sun and moon at that verse?

Have you also missed that God told Adam and Eve that in the 'day' they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that they would die, yet Adam lived to be 930 years old? Adam didn't quite make it to a full 'day' per God's reckoning, now did he? And thus Peter said...

2 Pet 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(KJV)

So why are you wanting to be ignorant about that?

Hast is past tense my friend, as verse 9 and 10 both use the term hast it is clear that this is past tense. In addition verse 9 uses the term wast demonstrating once again a term representing past tense. IOf you want to believe future it is certainly your choice as you are led friend as you are led!

Wow! How have you missed that a lot of Bible prophecy that is still... yet to occur, is given in a present tense style?

Jer 46:10
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
(KJV)

If that in Jeremiah's day was the "day of the Lord GOD" back then, then why do Christ's Apostles mention that "day of the Lord" again in the New Testament tied to Christ's future second coming? (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10) How to know the difference is simple. We have to pay strict attention of the 'events' associated with such phrases. And the events of Rev.5:9-10 are certainly about the time of Christ's literal redemption of His Church, which of course is still future to us.

LOL and you accuse others of spiritualizing. Clearly Rev1:6 uses the term hath which is past tense, and as we all know the last trump has not occurred. If you want to claim that hath isn’t past so you can justify the false belief that we won’t be made kings until the future when the last trump occurs that is your choice. But as all can see Rev1:6 clearly says “hath made us kings”, like it or not my friend that is past tense, not future! As you are led friend, as you are led!

I spiritualized nothing. I showed you how God and His Apostle Peter in HIS WORD, revealed how a 'day' can mean "a thousand years" to Him. Peter said it emphatically!!

Yet you mock and slander those who DO believe God's Word is clear on that!

Incorrect the amil view recognizes that God uses figurative language to describe how He reigns during the Christian era. One can deny the many Scriptures Like Rev1:9, Rev1:6 Rev5:10 etc ..but the fact remains Christ is already reigning. Just because he has not placed all his enemies underfoot does not mean He is not reigning after all Scripture tells us He reigns until He has placed all enemies under foot..

Denying Christ's coming "thousand years" literal reign with His elect of Rev.20 as written is a flat denial of that Scripture. The purpose for doing that today is so the New World Order hosts can try to fool the deceived into thinking that Christ's Kingdom is already established on earth today, when it's really that kind of thinking is only in order to prepare them to bow in false worship to the coming Antichrist, a false messiah that will sit in rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, and proclaim himself as God.

There may be some who hold the amil view that believe that way, but not all who hold the amil view believe that. There will be a literal second coming at the last trump and all who are alive at that time will be able to se it with their own eyes. Might I suggest yiou actually take the time to learn the belief and variations of a view so you don’t make false statements. In reality most amils recognize that the Lord will physically return at the last/7[sup]th[/sup] trump.

Since a false messiah is coming first, prior to Christ's return to gather His faithful, doesn't really matter if one believes Christ's Kingdom has come on earth today already ruling over all His enemies on earth, or that Christ is not going to literally return to earth, both concepts are of the SAME false leading; leading to false worship of the coming false messiah. Only ONE view exists as written in God's Word about Christ's coming and our gathering, and that is for AFTER the tribulation He mentioned, with His destroying the future false messiah with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess.2; Matt.24).

Just because one rules with a rod of iron does not mean that all are in submission. Remember in 1 Cor we are told Christ must reign until all his enemies are placed underfoot.

1Co 15:25-26 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
As the above verses demonstarate Christ reigns until all His enemies are placed under foot. One of those enemies is death, which is not destroyed until the last/7[sup]th[/sup] trump.

Doing that chopping of God's Word again I see.

1 Cor 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
(KJV)

The Zechariah 14 Scripture agrees with that above, and it revealed how those left that come up against Jerusalem will be required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year, to worship The KING, The LORD of hosts. All that is for AFTER Christ's return! And thus Paul's meaning that Christ must reign, means a literal reign AFTER His coming, not before His return. Christ also showed this in Matt.25 when He comes to sit on His throne and all the nations are brought to Him and He separates His sheep from the goats. It's also shown in Rev.22:14-15 about the holy city and tree of life established on earth with the wicked dwelling outside... its gates! Rev.3:9 about those of the "synagogue of Satan" coming to worship Christ at the feet of His elect is also another pointer to that time of His future literal reign, on earth.

And I tell you, all... those of "synagogue of Satan" WILL... bow in worship to Him in that future "thousand years" reign by Christ! Every single one of them!

Actually I would say the opposite, is true to deny that Christ is reigning now one must deny that John himself told us he was already in the kingdom of Christ (Rev1:9). One must also deny that we have already been made kings (Rev1:6and Rev5:10). I could go on but what’s the point you have already demonstrated that in your interpretation hast and have or not past tense and that your doctrine trumps what Scripture undeniably states.

We will have to wait and see just who it will be that you 'bow' to in worship in the near future, now won't we?

Once again as has been demonstrated you choose to ignore the simple truth of God’s word to stand by a doctrine and then when you can’t prove the validity of your view resort to personally attacking those who disagree with you. How sad. I feel sorry for one who must resort to such tactics; I will keep you in my prayers!! As you are led friend, as you are led!

That reminds me of the false prophets of Ezekiel 13 which God said their doctrine is like a false wall daubed with tempered mortar, as soon as a hard rain comes, it all falls down. That's what that doctrine you hold to is going to do, all fall to the ground when God's hard rain comes in our near future. I'm sure instead, that I need to pray for you!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Ridgerunner (and to you, too, Rach).

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Once again your rebuttal is nothing more then unproven assumptions. Where is the supporting Scripture that proves this doctrine you espouse that is clearly built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles?

LOL And this from the guy who accuses amilleniasts of spiritualizing Scripture to support their view! Then why does Scripture state we have already been made kings?
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

All these verses are saying is that our STANDING AS KINGS (AND PRIESTS) is already a "DONE DEAL!" They do NOT say that we are currently reigning; in fact, Revelation 5:10 says quite the opposite. "... and we SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH!" FUTURE TENSE!

In answer to your question, "Then why does Scripture state we have already been made kings?" it's simply because there is nothing that will undo our inheritance from God. Furthermore, the action on God's part is finished; it was completed in the past with the death and resurrection of His Son. That's important for our assurance! We can be confident in knowing that we SHALL be kings and SHALL reign!

Nothing in the amillennialists' doctrine denies that the second coming of Christ is literal. His second coming takes place at the last trump (1 Cor. 15:52, Rev. 10:6-7 and Rev. 11:15) Your baseless accusations only show your gross misunderstanding that lead you to make false and baseless accusations. Not all amillennialists are preterists. Many believe the preterists' interpretation of Scripture to be in error. I for one do believe that both preterist and futurist (regardless of pre, mid or post trib views) are in error. You do have a proclivity to jump to conclusions based on false assumptions as this conversation has clearly demonstrated.

While it is true that many amillennialists are believers in the Second Coming of the Messiah, they have a VERY different purpose for His Coming! However, the weakened view of the premillennialist (futurist) is not quite right, either.

Yeshua`s purpose for coming back will be to RESCUE His people, specifically the Jews, who will (according to the prophecies) need to be rescued as their enemies come against them. When one acknowledges that the Second Coming is for the INTRODUCTION of His Kingdom, then one comes to understand the true mission of Yeshua`. He comes to fulfill Psalm 2! He comes to fulfill Zechariah 12-14! He comes to fulfill Isaiah 60-66! And, NONE of these prophecies are to be fulfilled in some “spiritual” or “allegorical” way; NONE of these prophecies are to be fulfilled by some replacement population instead of Isra’el! They are ALL to be fulfilled in a literal, physical, powerful way as the Messiah Yeshua` returns to take up His reign over Yerushalayim, Y’hudah, Yisra’el, Shomron (Samaria), and the world!

I, too, believe that the preterist and current futurist points of view, namely the pretribulational rapturists, midtribulational (or pre-wrath) rapturists, and postmillennial rapturists, are all in error; however, my understanding of Scripture has prevented me from “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” I can still believe in a futurist viewpoint, but not at all like the classic viewpoints. The first and most important point to remember is that Yeshua` was sent to the house of Isra’el! Gentiles were simply added into His family by means of the Isra’elis being given a slumber and blinded eyes in their sleep while the Goyim (Gentiles) have overrun Yerushalayim during this “Time of the Goyim (Gentiles)!” The other thing to keep in mind is that the “tribulation” is primarily a judgment on Isra’el and that it has been in effect since the first century A.D.

Maybe you should take that issue up with someone who does not believe that the second coming is a literal event. As I have already stated the second coming occurs at the last trump (1Cor15:52, Rev10:6-7 and Rev11:15) Or is this just more of your deceptive tactics by trying to make it appear as if I believe differently than I really do. LOL, at least gain an understanding of another’s view so you can debate the merits of that person’s view rather then attacking them for something they don’t believe and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
My friend, if you would put a fraction of the effort into understanding the views others hold as you do defending your doctrine, you might be surprised by the result.

The quality of the Second Coming is Yeshua` coming back with a VENGEANCE! He will start in Botsrah, Edom (south of Y’hudah and the Dead Sea) and will end when He has driven all of Isra’el’s enemies northward and westward into the Valley of Y’hoshafat, today known as the Yizre`el Valley, a very fertile plain east of Haifa in Isra’el. He will “clean their clocks!” and rescue His own family, the Jews and Isra’elis.

Does an amillennialist believe any of this? (Probably not.)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

IMO, your "deeper realities" are a QUAGMIRE of superspiritual nonsense! You are basing your theological interpretations and opinions upon the human, English translations of God's Word instead of just looking at God's Word directly! Neither 1 Peter 3:21-22 nor Ephesians 1:19-22 give any credence to the opinion that Yeshua` is currently reigning! Find me ONE place where Yeshua` is said to be reigning currently! These two passages do not.

I don't read from any English translation. I go directly to the source.

You really need to add to your profile the real state you live in: denial.

 

[7angels]

Retrobyter

i agree that Jesus is not yet reigning. that will not happen until after the tribulation. i have a few questions for you if you don't mind.

1. do you believe that the church will be raptured away before isreal goes through the trbulation? you do believe that the tribulation is God's judgement on isreal and any left behind that do not get raptured up?

2. if you don't agree with the rapture then what do you think is being referred to in 1 thes 4:15-5:7?

3. do you believe jew in isreal will be saved after the tribulation? if so how do you come to this conclusion?

thanks for replying

 

[veteran]

While it is true that many amillennialists are believers in the Second Coming of the Messiah, they have a VERY different purpose for His Coming! However, the weakened view of the premillennialist (futurist) is not quite right, either.

Yeshua`s purpose for coming back will be to RESCUE His people, specifically the Jews, who will (according to the prophecies) need to be rescued as their enemies come against them. When one acknowledges that the Second Coming is for the INTRODUCTION of His Kingdom, then one comes to understand the true mission of Yeshua`. He comes to fulfill Psalm 2! He comes to fulfill Zechariah 12-14! He comes to fulfill Isaiah 60-66! And, NONE of these prophecies are to be fulfilled in some “spiritual” or “allegorical” way; NONE of these prophecies are to be fulfilled by some replacement population instead of Isra’el! They are ALL to be fulfilled in a literal, physical, powerful way as the Messiah Yeshua` returns to take up His reign over Yerushalayim, Y’hudah, Yisra’el, Shomron (Samaria), and the world!

I, too, believe that the preterist and current futurist points of view, namely the pretribulational rapturists, midtribulational (or pre-wrath) rapturists, and postmillennial rapturists, are all in error; however, my understanding of Scripture has prevented me from “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” I can still believe in a futurist viewpoint, but not at all like the classic viewpoints. The first and most important point to remember is that Yeshua` was sent to the house of Isra’el! Gentiles were simply added into His family by means of the Isra’elis being given a slumber and blinded eyes in their sleep while the Goyim (Gentiles) have overrun Yerushalayim during this “Time of the Goyim (Gentiles)!” The other thing to keep in mind is that the “tribulation” is primarily a judgment on Isra’el and that it has been in effect since the first century A.D.

...

Amillenialists, Pre-millenialists, Post-millenialists, ... meet a Historicist by the above remarks.

Historicism pretty much denies a specific Tribulation period for the end of this world just prior to Christ's second coming.

It aligns a lot with Preterist doctrines.


The theological seminaries of 'men' label the Biblical view of Christ's secong coming after a specific tribulation period (that never occurred before in history), as part of the Pre-millenialist category. The Pre-mill position proposes a Millenium (thousand years) reign of Christ beginning with His literal return; (thusly a Pre-millennium 'return' of Christ Jesus).

Yet what great confusion all those theological labels and categories are!!!

It's not important how those men try to categorize views of Christ's return and His Millennium time. What is important is listening to God's Word as written to 'properly' understand the times and the seasons of Christ's return, our gathering, and His Millennium reign.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, 7angels.

Retrobyter

i agree that Jesus is not yet reigning. that will not happen until after the tribulation. i have a few questions for you if you don't mind.

1. do you believe that the church will be raptured away before isreal goes through the trbulation? you do believe that the tribulation is God's judgement on isreal and any left behind that do not get raptured up?

Don't mind a bit; happy to comply:

First, no, I do not believe that the "church" will be raptured away before Isra'el goes through the tribulation. (BTW, make sure you leave the Hebrew word for God, "El," intact within the name "Isra'el"; that's one reason why I set it off from the rest of the name with the apostrophe.) They won't be raptured away beforehand for two reasons:

(1) Isra'el is already IN her "tribulation" (has been since the first century A.D.), and
(2) the "called-out" gathering ("church") of primarily Goyim (Gentile) believers were given a place WITHIN the Messiah's Kingdom FOR Isra'el; therefore, they have no priority or preference over Isra'el. They are "grafted in contrary to nature," as it were. On the other hand, Jews and Isra'elis who are "grafted into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE" are simply coming Home.

2. if you don't agree with the rapture then what do you think is being referred to in 1 thes 4:15-5:7?

Make no mistake, I DO believe in a "rapture," but I believe that it is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get all of the believers, Jew and Gentile alike - God's Army - to the Land of Isra'el in a hurry when the Messiah returns. See, national Isra'el will be in trouble (again, but on a much wider scale). That is the Day of the LORD, a day of vengeance from YaHuWH, the God of Isra'el! Yeshua` the Messiah is the One who comes to their rescue before they can be totally annihilated! He is the Rescuer or the Deliverer or the Savior!

3. do you believe jew in isreal will be saved after the tribulation? if so how do you come to this conclusion?

ABSOLUTELY I believe that the Jews in Isra'el will be rescued after their tribulation! How do I come to this conclusion? Simple: God's Word in his prophecies of Zechariah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Joel, etc. DECLARES it! Furthermore, Paul again promises it through the Spirit in His letter to the Romans. Carefully consider the following verses as a sampling of all that is said:

Zech. 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
KJV

Ezek. 39:21-29
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.
KJV

Isa 35:1-10
1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
KJV

Rom 11:1-29
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

God is not through with Isra'el!

thanks for replying

You're welcome!

 

[Rach1370]

[/color]

Amil denies the future "thousand years" reign of Christ Jesus literally on earth. That position includes those who believe that "thousand years" of Rev.20 is symbolic only, but still recognize Christ's future second coming as literal. Is that what you want me to say? Their idea is that Christ's Church is NOW reigning on earth, WITHOUT Christ's literal return, and without our literally being made priests and kings!

Amil also... includes those who flat deny any... literal second coming of Christ Jesus back to this earth.

Why are both... of those views false? Simply because the Biblical signs written to occur to go along with that time of Christ's reiging over ALL nations with His "rod of iron" and elect priests and kings has NOT... manifested yet on this earth!

For one last time, in the effort for you to recognise that what I believe does not damn my soul...let's keep it simple.

Is Jesus right now seated on a Throne in heaven? Ruling and reigning?

Does the Kingdom of God exist right now?

 

[veteran]

For one last time, in the effort for you to recognise that what I believe does not damn my soul...let's keep it simple.

Is Jesus right now seated on a Throne in heaven? Ruling and reigning?

Does the Kingdom of God exist right now?

And like I responded to that before, for today that is a SPIRITUAL REIGN and KINGDOM, and NOT the future "thousand years" LITERAL REIGN by Christ Jesus and His elect on earth.


I could quote the following type Scriptures all day long which go directly against men's doctrines that are against Christ's still future LITERAL reign to come...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
(KJV)

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

Zech 14:5
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(KJV)

Acts 1:11-12
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

I Jn 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

 

[Rach1370]

And like I responded to that before, for today that is a SPIRITUAL REIGN and KINGDOM, and NOT the future "thousand years" LITERAL REIGN by Christ Jesus and His elect on earth.


I could quote the following type Scriptures all day long which go directly against men's doctrines that are against Christ's still future LITERAL reign to come...

That's it? Seriously? That proves nothing for your point. At all. In fact it actually helps me with mine. I say Jesus is reigning now spiritually over the Kingdom of God...oh, you do to! So the answer to my questions were yes and yes.

As for your verses, they too prove nothing for a physical millennium. So what we have is this...many verses that prove that Jesus IS reigning now, that the Kingdom is now and is spiritual. There are also verses that tell us at Jesus' second return things are going to happen that usher in the new heavens and earth (see previous posts). But we have nothing to suggest to us that when He comes, he's going to set up an earthly kingdom for a 1000 years. Let's look at your verses that supposedly prove the bible says He will...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
(KJV)

Oh, so Jesus says His Kingdom is not of this world? And that tells us that the 1000 years is future and literal how?

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

Mmm hmm. So, Jesus will return a second time for those who believe in Him. Well, I've never said Jesus won't have a physical second coming. But this doesn't say said second coming will then be followed by a literal 1000 years reign. So, sorry, you got nothing here.

Zech 14:5
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

Again, nothing. Yes, Jesus returns to this world, yes His enemies crumble before Him. But nowhere does it say that He will then set up an earthly Kingdom.

John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(KJV)

Yeees? When Jesus comes we will be with Him. Sure. But this doesn't say 'with Him in His earthly kingdom' it just says with Him. Which is what I believe...I just believe it will be in the new heavens and new earth. So, sorry, this verse doesn't help you.

Acts 1:11-12
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

And again, I also believe Jesus will come back to earth the same way He left. But this still doesn't support and earthly reign of 1000 years. At all. You are purely reading into it what you want to...as with all the other verses.

1Thes 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Yes, when Jesus returns we will always be with Him. But again, no mention of Him setting up a 1000 year kingdom on earth.

I Jn 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

As the Thess verse just pointed out, yeah, when Jesus returns we will be changed to be like Him in our eternal bodies. There is no mention of your millennium however.

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

Veteran...of course every eye is going to see Him when He returns. This is one of the reasons we've been harping on about not being deceived by the Antichrist. Jesus' return is going to be an amazing supernatural event where every eye will witness His return. I long for it and wonder over it. But there is no mention of the millennium here.

All you have supporting your 'millennium' is that one passage in Rev 20, and a few vague mentions in the old prophets in regards to how wonderful said time is supposed to be. And even those vague passages are doubtful about what time they're talking about. You are taking one verse and your idea, and forcing so many passages to say what you want them to say. Sorry, but they very simply don't. Not one of those passages above talk about the millennium at all, let alone it being a future literal reign.

 

[veteran]

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
(KJV)

Christ's LITERAL Kingdom not of this present world, is the meaning. Otherwise His servants would FIGHT today. That battle is not yet, for it's about the subduing of ALL His enemies on earth, which obviously is still yet to occur. That battle is the future Armageddon event (Rev.16). At present, Christ by The Holy Spirit reigning on earth AMONG and within His servants only, and not over the wicked literally, not yet. To think Christ now is reigning over the wicked on earth today, is to put Christ in agreement with Baal, since the wicked have yet to be subdued by Christ Jesus.


Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

A "second time" means Christ's second coming, which is written in Zech.9:10, His first coming written in Zech.9:9. His 'appearing' means literal... appearance, like SEEING... Him. Impossible to spiritualize that away.



Zech 14:5
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

He shall... come there, and all the saints with Him to that spot. That never happened per history, for to say it did begs the question of why we are not yet gathered to that location with Him? No room for spiritualizing that Mount of Olives location, since it's a real geographical location on earth, at the time of Christ's Ascension from that spot and ... for His return like Acts 1 says.


John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(KJV)

Jesus said He "will come again", which 'again' automatically includes His first literal coming to earth. Can't spiritualize that second time, that Scripture automatically makes it literal for His second coming too!



Acts 1:11-12
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

He's coming in same manner how He ascended into Heaven. So even those angels who said that agree with His literal return per the Zech.14 Scripture.



1Thes 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

On that trump of God, Christ brings the saints that have died back with Him, and the saints still alive on earth are changed, and joined with them, to go... where? To Jerusalem per the Zech.14 Scripture. All the Scriptures weave together like a tight knit glove.



I Jn 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

Fact of Christ's future literal appearance is undeniable per that. Yet still denied by those who are either deceived, or who refuse Him.


Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

Those who pierced Him represent the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan", the seat of Christ's enemies on earth at the time of His crucifixion, and still today. Rev.3:9 says they are going to bow the knee in worship at the feet of His elect when that occurs. To try and spiritualize that away shows grand heights of deception and ignorance, and even rebellion.

 

[Rach1370]

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
(KJV)

Christ's LITERAL Kingdom not of this present world, is the meaning. Otherwise His servants would FIGHT today. That battle is not yet, for it's about the subduing of ALL His enemies on earth, which obviously is still yet to occur. That battle is the future Armageddon event (Rev.16). At present, Christ by The Holy Spirit reigning on earth AMONG and within His servants only, and not over the wicked literally, not yet. To think Christ now is reigning over the wicked on earth today, is to put Christ in agreement with Baal, since the wicked have yet to be subdued by Christ Jesus.


Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

A "second time" means Christ's second coming, which is written in Zech.9:10, His first coming written in Zech.9:9. His 'appearing' means literal... appearance, like SEEING... Him. Impossible to spiritualize that away.



Zech 14:5
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

He shall... come there, and all the saints with Him to that spot. That never happened per history, for to say it did begs the question of why we are not yet gathered to that location with Him? No room for spiritualizing that Mount of Olives location, since it's a real geographical location on earth, at the time of Christ's Ascension from that spot and ... for His return like Acts 1 says.


John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(KJV)

Jesus said He "will come again", which 'again' automatically includes His first literal coming to earth. Can't spiritualize that second time, that Scripture automatically makes it literal for His second coming too!



Acts 1:11-12
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

He's coming in same manner how He ascended into Heaven. So even those angels who said that agree with His literal return per the Zech.14 Scripture.



1Thes 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

On that trump of God, Christ brings the saints that have died back with Him, and the saints still alive on earth are changed, and joined with them, to go... where? To Jerusalem per the Zech.14 Scripture. All the Scriptures weave together like a tight knit glove.



I Jn 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

Fact of Christ's future literal appearance is undeniable per that. Yet still denied by those who are either deceived, or who refuse Him.


Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

Those who pierced Him represent the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan", the seat of Christ's enemies on earth at the time of His crucifixion, and still today. Rev.3:9 says they are going to bow the knee in worship at the feet of His elect when that occurs. To try and spiritualize that away shows grand heights of deception and ignorance, and even rebellion.

All supposition. Every single word. I'm sorry, but it's no more 'fact' than than a weather man's forecast! All of this is your opinion on what these verses mean. And this is your 'proof' for a literal future millennium...I'm sorry Veteran, but it's not good enough for you to pull out the 'truth before consideration for the feelings of others' and throw yourself upon the 'I'll be a jerk to save souls' routine.

 

[veteran]

All supposition. Every single word. I'm sorry, but it's no more 'fact' than than a weather man's forecast! All of this is your opinion on what these verses mean. And this is your 'proof' for a literal future millennium...I'm sorry Veteran, but it's not good enough for you to pull out the 'truth before consideration for the feelings of others' and throw yourself upon the 'I'll be a jerk to save souls' routine.

Christ Jesus walked upon this earth at His first appearance. Those verses are especially about His coming second appearance upon this earth. It is impossible to interpret them any other way than literally.

Those who try to spiritualize away those Scriptures reveal who they follow and listen to, and it is not The Father through His Son.

 

[Rach1370]

Christ Jesus walked upon this earth at His first appearance. Those verses are especially about His coming second appearance upon this earth. It is impossible to interpret them any other way than literally.

Those who try to spiritualize away those Scriptures reveal who they follow and listen to, and it is not The Father through His Son.

I do take those scriptures literally...I have never claimed otherwise...that would have been your assumption and failure to read what I wrote. I believe very strongly that Jesus will return physically, that He will return the same way He left, descending from heaven to alight on the Mount of Olives. I believe when that happens every knee shall bow, the whole world will know and everyone will be judged. My point is....even if you take those verses literally, they do not talk of the millennium. At all. Nice try, but no cigar.

 

[jiggyfly]

I do take those scriptures literally...I have never claimed otherwise...that would have been your assumption and failure to read what I wrote. I believe very strongly that Jesus will return physically, that He will return the same way He left, descending from heaven to alight on the Mount of Olives. I believe when that happens every knee shall bow, the whole world will know and everyone will be judged. My point is....even if you take those verses literally, they do not talk of the millennium. At all. Nice try, but no cigar.

Hey Rach, not to butt in, but if those verses do not speak of the millennial reign of Jesus then what event do you think those verses are speaking about?

 

[Ridgerunner]

....if those verses do not speak of the millennial reign of Jesus then what event do you think those verses are speaking about?

Could it be His forever and ever kingdom? After all aren’t we told that He returns at the last trump. For it to be the last trump it would have to include the 7 trumps of Rev or 1Cor15:52 would be a lie as written.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

John told us he was already “in the kingdom and patience of Christ” roughly 1900 years ago while imprisoned on the isle of Patmos.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John would not have claimed he was already in the kingdom of Christ, if Christ’s kingdom was still in the future.

Figurative language is used in prophecy to describe literal events. Could it be that the millennial reign is a case of figurative language describing the Christian era?

G5507 χίλιοι chilioi khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
It does appear that many have built a definite doctrine on a plural of uncertain affinity, or to put it another way a definite doctrine on an indefinite plural.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Either there are some really old dudes walking around or Christ has already set up the kingdom. I haven’t seen any 1900+ year old dudes walking around lately have any of you?

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Christ established his kingdom back in the first century then He made us kings and handed the keys to the kingdom to us (the church).
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
Sadly it appears that we have done a poor job and allowed much to be set loose both here and in heaven.