Amillenialism, True or False?

[veteran]

I'm starting this thread on Amillenialsim for those who wish to participate. I want to understand why some support that view.

Definition of Amillenial position:

This view rejects the idea of a future literal thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus, and instead treats that period of Rev.20 as 'symbolic' only. It instead supports the Rev.20 thousand years idea as Christ's reign having begun with the so-called Church Age when Jerusalem was destroyed in 69 A.D. by the Romans.

 

[Rach1370]

I'm not particularly sure I want to enter into this with you...not having seen how you jump on people and their opinions who differ from yours.

But, in an attempt to broaden understanding, if not approval, I'll give a very brief description of how I see it!!

The term 'Amillennialism' is perhaps not the best one, but it's what is used. 'Realized millenium' is maybe better. In general, I believe that there is very much a 'millenium', and era (not necessarily a literal 1000 years) where Jesus rules as King in glory. I just think that time is now. We know that on the cross Jesus dealt satan a blow. His defeat is assured, even if not yet realized. And we also know that when Jesus returned to heaven, He was seated at the right hand of His Father and given all power, glory and authority. So it's not just a 'symbolic' reign...I believe that He is reigning right now...spiritually and in a way, physically. Jesus is right now head of the Church. It's He who furthers the gospel through us, and ultimately controls everything. We know that everything good comes through Him, so as the gospel touches peoples lives and the world around us through it, we see the glory of God. His majesty, power and grace.
I cannot reconcile to scripture the idea of post-mil...where Christianity grows until there is a golden era of 'goodness' and then Christ comes. The bible is too plain in the fact that we will suffer...even more towards the end of time. And we are also told that humanity is incapable of 'goodness'. I can't see it happening, and I can't see the Bible supporting it.
As far as Pre-mil (and not the pre-trib kind) goes, I will say that it, after amil, makes more biblical sense then the rest of them, but I still cannot reconcile a lot of the "Jesus second coming" passages to it. As I said in my other post. I really see that the bible talks of Jesus second coming and 'the end' as the same event. The new heavens and new earth as that same event.

So, that's the basic idea...

 

[veteran]

I can understand how... the Amillennialism ideas got started, especially when The Gospel really took hold of the western nations, and a literal Christian structure arose in Europe. The more and more God's blessings became manifested in the Christian west, even with the industrial age, horn of plenty era, the more some would truly believe that Christ's Kingdom was already manifest on earth.

Fact is though, our Lord Jesus said His Kingdom was not... of... this... world (John 13:36).

We His servants can be here on earth to represent His Kingdom to come, but His literal Kingdom is still not here on earth yet, for God's Word gives many witnesses that Christ's reign will be over all... the earth, and over all... His enemies, even with their bowing the knee to Him to profess Him as Lord.

Another thing is with Christ promising His elect to gather them where He is, with the many mansions (abodes) of John 14 prepared for us. Those abodes have to do with the temple layout in Ezekiel 40-47. They are the abodes or chambers of the priests in the temple of Ezekiel that reign with Him in the future Milennial time.

The wicked today on earth have definitely not be subdued under Christ's reign. As a matter of fact, the wicked today are getting worse, and more out of control upon this earth. One would have to turn a blind eye to not see tribulation upon Christ's servants today growing, which is the direct opposite idea of Christ's Kingdom being manifested here on earth today.

 

[Rach1370]

Question...if Christ's Kingdom is suppposed to be free from all the sin and rebellion we see today...how does that fit with your view that at the end of 1000 years, all who oppose Jesus will gather together with the released satan and they will attempt to do war against Jesus??? Wouldn't that mean theres still sin and rebellion in your literal 1000 years??

Look, despite my question above (just can't see how that makes sense!) I don't want to get into 'discussing' Pre-mil vs Amil with you. I never intended to. I had hoped to clarify my beliefs for you a little better, just so you could see that nothing I believed put me at odds with salvation and primary doctrines. But I'm not getting into defending my position...I have neither the desire or need to.
If I'm wrong, God will eventually led me there, just as currently He has led me here. And if I'm right, then I have no need of man's opinions messing with something that the Spirit Himself brought me peace with.
Here's the thing Veteran....the Word of God is a living, breathing thing, just like the Spirit. They both have vast power. As I love Jesus and am actively trying to live for Him and honour the truth of His word, I have no doubt that they will lead me to where I need to be. Don't get me wrong, I recognise the need and wonder of wise councel, but I don't know you, so sorry...I'm not going to let your opinions mean more to me than the Word and the Spirit. Fear God, not man.

 

[7angels]

sorry i don't have a lot of time so here is a quick reply.

matthew refers of the millenium when he talks of the kingdom of the heavens. the kingdom of God is different then the kingdom of the heavens. the kingdom of the heavens takes place from the resurrection of Christ to the end of the millenium. the millenium is for the overcomers in Christ. it is their reward for faithful and obediance service to God. remeber how Jesus said not everyone who says Lord, Lord will bet into the Kingom of heaven. Jesus was referring to the millenium. living the life of an obediant and willing slave for Christ is different then just believing Jesus is Lord and savior and that he died for your sins. when you read matthew understand that it talks about Christ as the King and who brings the Kingdom of the heavens to the earth. when we understand how each book is written it helps us to understand why there are different accounts of the same story and why they are not all in a certain order. this is what veteran refers as correctly deviding the word.

rach

in answer to your question is that Jesus will reign and most sin will be taken from the world. for example death does not leave until after Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire. but without satan to tempt people it will be much easier to live the Godly life. the only people who will be exempt from the sin are those with Christ living in new Jeruselum during the millenium.

i will show you scripture for what i have said and reply more in depth when i get time.. i hope this helps and does not confuse you too much.

 

[Rach1370]

sorry i don't have a lot of time so here is a quick reply.

matthew refers of the millenium when he talks of the kingdom of the heavens. the kingdom of God is different then the kingdom of the heavens. the kingdom of the heavens takes place from the resurrection of Christ to the end of the millenium. the millenium is for the overcomers in Christ. it is their reward for faithful and obediance service to God. remeber how Jesus said not everyone who says Lord, Lord will bet into the Kingom of heaven. Jesus was referring to the millenium. living the life of an obediant and willing slave for Christ is different then just believing Jesus is Lord and savior and that he died for your sins. when you read matthew understand that it talks about Christ as the King and who brings the Kingdom of the heavens to the earth. when we understand how each book is written it helps us to understand why there are different accounts of the same story and why they are not all in a certain order. this is what veteran refers as correctly deviding the word.

Where in Matthew is this reference?? Can I ask what makes you so certain that it is definitely a different kingdom? Christ Himself had several different names: Son of Man, the Messiah, suffering servant, the Christ....all that for one God/man!
Entertaining the fact that this may indeed be a separate kingdom (won't know until ive read the passage) where do you get the time frames from? Look, I'll read the passage and consider it, but I really think you've taken small bits of information and fit them into how you see the end times. This is the problem with all these passages...people take them and make them say what they want them to. We need to put them with/against all other scripture to have a clear picture emerge. Now, I'm not saying you haven't...I'm sure you'll be able to give a me a clearer picture when you have time. But I am wary of anything that says 'of course it means this' without showing biblical reason to prove it.

rach

in answer to your question is that Jesus will reign and most sin will be taken from the world. for example death does not leave until after Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire. but without satan to tempt people it will be much easier to live the Godly life. the only people who will be exempt from the sin are those with Christ living in new Jeruselum during the millenium.

i will show you scripture for what i have said and reply more in depth when i get time.. i hope this helps and does not confuse you too much.

Again, I'm afraid this is too much of a 'I believe in this, so I can see this saying what I need it to say'. Where on earth in scripture does it go into such minute detail of the millennium? Where does scripture say that in the millennium it will be easier to live a Godly life? Aren't we told that people are inherently sinful and that the only time we will escape such inner corruption is in our new bodies? Where are you getting this detail from? This is not an attack, by the way...I just honestly can't see it...but as I said before, I'll read your reply when you get the time to explain it a little better...ie...give me verses!!!

My point in regards to this question to Veteran, is that he was trying to say the millennium couldn't be now, because now we still have sin. But you say (as does he) that there will still be sin in the millennium...which to me kinda cancels out his point!

To put this as simply as I can...the argument can sort of be boiled down to this....we all agree that the 'last enemy' to be defeated will be death. You say that during the millennium death will still be present. But in 1 Corinthians 15 we see that the 'death of death' is when Jesus returns to earth. Jesus' second coming brings an end to death. So many other scriptures also point to His second coming; ushering in the new heavens and new earth, gathering His children to Him in the air and giving us our new imperishable bodies, the judgement of sheep and goats (the white throne judgement). I cannot see scripture saying anything else. When Jesus comes again...He triumphs over all, even death...the end, we start our new eternal lives. To me, the logical conclusion is that the millennium is now. It's not so hard to accept...we know Jesus is reigning in power and glory right now...the Bible says so. And really, when the whole 'end times' debate gets going, that's all I care about. That Jesus is King and is rightly glorified, and that one day, He most definitely will be coming back! That's why I really don't care to get really into this debate...I find the details interesting, but they don't matter so much to me. I just like knowing that Jesus is coming back. My problem is people who think that a different take on secondary issues in scripture is a basis to accuse them of heresy.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, 7angels.

sorry i don't have a lot of time so here is a quick reply.

matthew refers of the millenium when he talks of the kingdom of the heavens. the kingdom of God is different then the kingdom of the heavens. the kingdom of the heavens takes place from the resurrection of Christ to the end of the millenium. the millenium is for the overcomers in Christ. it is their reward for faithful and obediance service to God. remeber how Jesus said not everyone who says Lord, Lord will bet into the Kingom of heaven. Jesus was referring to the millenium. living the life of an obediant and willing slave for Christ is different then just believing Jesus is Lord and savior and that he died for your sins. when you read matthew understand that it talks about Christ as the King and who brings the Kingdom of the heavens to the earth. when we understand how each book is written it helps us to understand why there are different accounts of the same story and why they are not all in a certain order. this is what veteran refers as correctly deviding the word.

rach

in answer to your question is that Jesus will reign and most sin will be taken from the world. for example death does not leave until after Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire. but without satan to tempt people it will be much easier to live the Godly life. the only people who will be exempt from the sin are those with Christ living in new Jeruselum during the millenium.

i will show you scripture for what i have said and reply more in depth when i get time.. i hope this helps and does not confuse you too much.

I'm sorry, but that's just silly. The Kingdom of the heaven (singular, btw) is not the same as the Kingdom of God?! That's not true. In many of the parallel passages between the synoptic Gospels, Matthew will use the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" while Mark or Luke will use the phrase "Kingdom of God."

"Kingdom of heaven" simply means the "Kingdom from the sky," expressing origin. The "Kingdom of God" means that it is "God's Kingdom," expressing ownership. Whereas there IS a difference between the "Kingdom" as it will exist within the Millennium and the "Kingdom" as it will exist in the Eternal State, that difference is not found in the terminology within the Gospels.

The difference is best expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Cor. 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

This passage can be supplemented with Revelation 20:1-15:

Rev. 20:1-15; 21:1-2
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

There's a certain amount of parallelism between the two through the connection of the Great White Throne Judgment being the time when the Messiah "shall have put down all rule and all authority and power," and the "last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" reflecting the "second death." One may also compare these with 2 Peter 3:3-13 and Matthew's account of the Parable of the Tares among the Wheat in Matthew 13:13:24-30, and its interpretation in Matthew 13:36-43, opening up Revelation 20:1-15 to also include 21:1-2:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This is why I believe that the parables of Matthew 13 are not about this present time in which we live at all! They are about the Kingdom which starts with the Millennium yet to come after the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`. One should also remember that all of this has to be reconciled with Gavri'el's prophecy concerning the Messiah in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

 

[jiggyfly]

Shalom, 7angels.



I'm sorry, but that's just silly. The Kingdom of the heaven (singular, btw) is not the same as the Kingdom of God?! That's not true. In many of the parallel passages between the synoptic Gospels, Matthew will use the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" while Mark or Luke will use the phrase "Kingdom of God."

"Kingdom of heaven" simply means the "Kingdom from the sky," expressing origin. The "Kingdom of God" means that it is "God's Kingdom," expressing ownership. Whereas there IS a difference between the "Kingdom" as it will exist within the Millennium and the "Kingdom" as it will exist in the Eternal State, that difference is not found in the terminology within the Gospels.

The difference is best expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Cor. 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

This passage can be supplemented with Revelation 20:1-15:

Rev. 20:1-15; 21:1-2
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

There's a certain amount of parallelism between the two through the connection of the Great White Throne Judgment being the time when the Messiah "shall have put down all rule and all authority and power," and the "last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" reflecting the "second death." One may also compare these with 2 Peter 3:3-13 and Matthew's account of the Parable of the Tares among the Wheat in Matthew 13:13:24-30, and its interpretation in Matthew 13:36-43, opening up Revelation 20:1-15 to also include 21:1-2:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This is why I believe that the parables of Matthew 13 are not about this present time in which we live at all! They are about the Kingdom which starts with the Millennium yet to come after the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`. One should also remember that all of this has to be reconciled with Gavri'el's prophecy concerning the Messiah in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Excellent post, it is a common error to think that all of Jesus' parables were about the eternal kingdom.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In general, I believe that there is very much a 'millenium', and era (not necessarily a literal 1000 years) where Jesus rules as King in glory. I just think that time is now. We know that on the cross Jesus dealt satan a blow. His defeat is assured, even if not yet realized. And we also know that when Jesus returned to heaven, He was seated at the right hand of His Father and given all power, glory and authority. So it's not just a 'symbolic' reign...I believe that He is reigning right now...spiritually and in a way, physically. Jesus is right now head of the Church. It's He who furthers the gospel through us, and ultimately controls everything. We know that everything good comes through Him, so as the gospel touches peoples lives and the world around us through it, we see the glory of God. His majesty, power and grace.
I cannot reconcile to scripture the idea of post-mil...where Christianity grows until there is a golden era of 'goodness' and then Christ comes. The bible is too plain in the fact that we will suffer...even more towards the end of time. And we are also told that humanity is incapable of 'goodness'. I can't see it happening, and I can't see the Bible supporting it.

You are really on track. Consider this. The kingdom has not yet reached its fullness, so it cannot yet fully reign. The exercise of full sovereignty cannot happen until the temple, which has been under construction for nearly 2000 years, is completed, and the kingdoms of the world are then conquered and destroyed. The focus of Jesus' intercession now is to bring the fullness of all peoples into the temple, at which point he then stands up for his people to fully save them, and judge the wicked. Then and only then can the kingdom be fully established. Once it is, there will be much work to do restoring an obliterated world.

This is why I believe that the parables of Matthew 13 are not about this present time in which we live at all! They are about the Kingdom which starts with the Millennium yet to come after the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`. One should also remember that all of this has to be reconciled with Gavri'el's prophecy concerning the Messiah in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

He is reigning right here right now. Don't you understand that the son of man has already received (not will receive) an eternal kingdom from the ancient of days?

My point in regards to this question to Veteran, is that he was trying to say the millennium couldn't be now, because now we still have sin. But you say (as does he) that there will still be sin in the millennium...which to me kinda cancels out his point!

Not every sinner will be destroyed in the coming apocalypse; there will be a remnant. Remember it is said in Isaiah:

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:20​

There still will sin and death, but lifespans will greatly increase as the knowledge of God covers the earth through the reigning sons of God; just as lifespans greatly decreased after the flood when people became separated from the revelation of God vis-a-vis the sons of God at the (closed) gate of the garden of Eden.

 

[Rach1370]

You are really on track. Consider this. The kingdom has not yet reached its fullness, so it cannot yet fully reign. The exercise of full sovereignty cannot happen until the temple, which has been under construction for nearly 2000 years, is completed, and the kingdoms of the world are then conquered and destroyed. The focus of Jesus' intercession now is to bring the fullness of all peoples into the temple, at which point he then stands up for his people to fully save them, and judge the wicked. Then and only then can the kingdom be fully established. Once it is, there will be much work to do restoring an obliterated world.

Are you referring here to Paul in Romans saying that the full number of Gentiles have yet to come in?
And which Kingdom are you referring to here, the new heavens and earth, or the millennial kingdom?? Just to clarify!!

Not every sinner will be destroyed in the coming apocalypse; there will be a remnant. Remember it is said in Isaiah:

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:20​

There still will sin and death, but lifespans will greatly increase as the knowledge of God covers the earth through the reigning sons of God; just as lifespans greatly decreased after the flood when people became separated from the revelation of God vis-a-vis the sons of God at the (closed) gate of the garden of Eden.

I think the key to interpreting this passage is found both just above it and also in Rev 21. Consider:

“For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth,
and the former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in that which I create;
for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,
and her people to be a gladness.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem
and be glad in my people;
no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping
and the cry of distress.
(Isaiah 65:17-19 ESV)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
(Revelation 21:1-4 ESV)

The language is too similar to ignore it. They are speaking of the same event. And we can see that Rev 21 is after the '1000' years and after Satan has been cast into the lake of fire, along with 'death' and all those unsaved.

As far as the problem of Isaiah 65:20 mentioning death, I think the NIV version translates it best:

"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed."

I think he's using the illustration of death itself to show how it will be without it. Basically this new place he's talking of is such an amazing place it is almost beyond our current comprehension, with death and sickness and war all around us. He's saying that it will be a place where we needn't fear a child dying before they've even began to live, cut off by a sinful world. He's saying that men will not need to fear dying 'before their time'...that is no longer a worry. And I don't believe he's saying that a youth 'will die' at a hundred, he's putting across the idea that long life is granted...100 years is young! And of course, while eternal life for the saved will be a blessing, it will be a curse for those unredeemed. Eternity in damnation.

The short of it is this. I believe scripture is clear on these facts. At Jesus' second coming, several events will occur; 1 death will be vanquished, 2 we will be gathered to Him and changed into our eternal bodies, 3 the sheep and goats will be separated and judged and 4 the new heavens and earth will appear, as the old will be burned up. I simply cannot see the bible allowing for a period of time where Jesus reigns here on this old earth with sin, death and rebellion still present.

 

[7angels]

here is why i believe what i believe. the new testament at its beginning presents four biographies to portray the main aspects of Christ. the gospel of matthew testifies that Jesus is the King, the Christ of God prophesied in the old testament, who brings the kingdom of the heavens to the earth. the gospel of mark tells us that Jesus is the servant of God laboring for God faithfully. mark's account is most simple for a servant does not warrant a detailed record. the gospel of Luke presents a full picture of Jesus as the only proper and normal man who ever lived on this earth. as such a man, Jesus is the savior of mankind. the Gospel of john unveils Jesus as the Son of God, a very God himself, who is the life to God's people. among the 4 gospels only matthew and luke have a geneology. this is to testify that Jesus is the King the Christ of God prophesied in the old testament. matthew needs to show us the antecedents and statusof this King to prove that Jesus is who the proper successor to the throne of david. luke needs to prove that Jesus is a proper and normal man so luke has generations of this manto attest that Jesus is qualified to be the savior of mankind. mark being written from a servants point of veiw does need to tell us of his origens. to unveil that Jesus is God does not need to give us a genealogy either. rather john declares that as the word of God, Jesus is the very God in the beginning.

repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. matt 3:2. john the baptist's teaching of repentance set the starting blocks of making the kingdom of the heavens possible. for this new kingdom indicates that God's new testament teaching is focused on God's kingdom. for this we need to repent make a turn in our life persuit. the goal of our persuing has been other things but noe our persuing must turn towards God and his kingdom which is specifically and purposefully called the kingdom of the heavens. mark 1:15 refers also to this kingdom. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. the kingdom of God started from the foundation of the world all he way too eternity. this verse also says the kingdom of God is coming or drawing near. the hebrew word for at hand is eggizo strong G1448 if you wish to look it up. so if God's kingdom started before the foundation of the world then this verse is referring to something else like the kingdom of the heavens. according to matthew as a whole the kingdom of the heavens is different from the messianic kingdom. the messianic kingdom will be the restored kingdom of david(see acts 15:16) rebuilt the tabernacle of david, made up the children of isreal, and will be earthly and physical in nature where the kingdom of the heavens is constituted of regenerated believers and is heavenly and spiritual. also the word drawn near (in matt 3:2) clearly indicates that before the coming of john the baptist that there was no kingdom of the heavens.

matt 4:17, 10:7 show us that even during Jesus' ministry the kingdom of the heaven still was drawing near but was not yet here. the parable of the seed(matt 13:3-9) indicates the Lord's preaching, the Lord die not saythe kingdom of the heavens is(or has become) like... not until the second parable which is the parable of the tares(matt13:24) indicate the establishing of the church on the day of penetecost, did the Lord say this. matt 16:18-19 in which the terms church and kingdom of the heavens are used interchangeably, provesthat the kingdom of the heavens came when the church was established.

now this is why i believe what i believe. i can go more indepth but if you choose not to believe then there is no reason for me to go further. also if you are on track with me and have questions then it is easier for me to answer them here then to wait and then you get really confused.

rach
i will answer your question in a bit but i wanted to get this reason of the kingdom of the heavens settled with proof before i start on yours. it is easier for me to refute one at a time then trying to answer different questions and get confused. i am not known to multitask very well. i hope you understand.

God bless you all

 

[veteran]

Question...if Christ's Kingdom is suppposed to be free from all the sin and rebellion we see today...how does that fit with your view that at the end of 1000 years, all who oppose Jesus will gather together with the released satan and they will attempt to do war against Jesus??? Wouldn't that mean theres still sin and rebellion in your literal 1000 years??

The Zechariah 14 Scripture is easy enough.

Zech 14:6-11
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(KJV)


Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)


Some of the ideas of Amillennialism wants to treat today's world as Christ's Kingdom already having come on this earth. Yet even that Zech.14 Scripture reveals a major difference than today's time, even with that rebelliousness of nations refusing to come up to Jerusalem year by year to worship The KING, The LORD of hosts. In other words, if you'll notice today, Christ has not returned to Jerusalem yet in order for that Scripture to take place, and that event is associated with earth changes there in the holy land which still have yet to come to pass.

Because it's very clear those Zech.14 events have yet to come to pass, does that give any of us the right to treat that Scripture as if it's metaphorical only? Absolutely not. The attempt to create spiritualizations of a declared Scripture event, simply because it goes against doctrine one wants... to hold onto, is evidence of wolves in sheep's clothing trying to get us away from the simplicity in God's Holy Writ. That Zechariah 14 Scripture is going to come to pass as written there, and it's to begin with Christ's future return.

So just what is different about that time of Zech.14 with those nations then? It was further revealed in the 1 Cor.15:23-28, Rev.20, and Ezek.40-47 Scripture, especially in Ezek.44, and even with what our Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29 about those of the "resurrection of damnation". Here's another example...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

Jesus said that to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia. That "synagogue of Satan" represents the seat of Christ's enemies on earth during this present world. So how is it those are going to bow in worship to Christ at the feet of His elect, and when will that occur, because it certainly has never happened during this present world? That's going to happen during Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.

Ezek.44 goes into more detail about that, with those who will stand in judgment during that time. Those represent the "resurrection of damnation" that will also be present during that future reign. It's specifically what the Ps.2 Scripture is about with Christ ruling the nations with a rod of iron...


Ps 2:6-12
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(KJV)

Rev 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
(KJV)


The Revelation Scripture reveals when that rod of iron is for, not this present world, but for after Christ's future return.That coming event is written of so much in Scripture, how could one account for a doctrine that's directly opposed to all that?

Thus it's not about what one 'wants' to believe from Scripture, it's about understanding what God's Word says 'as written', and staying with it, and keeping Christ's warning to beware of false prophets that creep in among His people to devise ideas that directly counter His written Word.

 

[Rach1370]

here is why i believe what i believe. the new testament at its beginning presents four biographies to portray the main aspects of Christ. the gospel of matthew testifies that Jesus is the King, the Christ of God prophesied in the old testament, who brings the kingdom of the heavens to the earth. the gospel of mark tells us that Jesus is the servant of God laboring for God faithfully. mark's account is most simple for a servant does not warrant a detailed record. the gospel of Luke presents a full picture of Jesus as the only proper and normal man who ever lived on this earth. as such a man, Jesus is the savior of mankind. the Gospel of john unveils Jesus as the Son of God, a very God himself, who is the life to God's people. among the 4 gospels only matthew and luke have a geneology. this is to testify that Jesus is the King the Christ of God prophesied in the old testament. matthew needs to show us the antecedents and statusof this King to prove that Jesus is who the proper successor to the throne of david. luke needs to prove that Jesus is a proper and normal man so luke has generations of this manto attest that Jesus is qualified to be the savior of mankind. mark being written from a servants point of veiw does need to tell us of his origens. to unveil that Jesus is God does not need to give us a genealogy either. rather john declares that as the word of God, Jesus is the very God in the beginning.

repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. matt 3:2. john the baptist's teaching of repentance set the starting blocks of making the kingdom of the heavens possible. for this new kingdom indicates that God's new testament teaching is focused on God's kingdom. for this we need to repent make a turn in our life persuit. the goal of our persuing has been other things but noe our persuing must turn towards God and his kingdom which is specifically and purposefully called the kingdom of the heavens. mark 1:15 refers also to this kingdom. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. the kingdom of God started from the foundation of the world all he way too eternity. this verse also says the kingdom of God is coming or drawing near. the hebrew word for at hand is eggizo strong G1448 if you wish to look it up. so if God's kingdom started before the foundation of the world then this verse is referring to something else like the kingdom of the heavens. according to matthew as a whole the kingdom of the heavens is different from the messianic kingdom. the messianic kingdom will be the restored kingdom of david(see acts 15:16) rebuilt the tabernacle of david, made up the children of isreal, and will be earthly and physical in nature where the kingdom of the heavens is constituted of regenerated believers and is heavenly and spiritual. also the word drawn near (in matt 3:2) clearly indicates that before the coming of john the baptist that there was no kingdom of the heavens.

matt 4:17, 10:7 show us that even during Jesus' ministry the kingdom of the heaven still was drawing near but was not yet here. the parable of the seed(matt 13:3-9) indicates the Lord's preaching, the Lord die not saythe kingdom of the heavens is(or has become) like... not until the second parable which is the parable of the tares(matt13:24) indicate the establishing of the church on the day of penetecost, did the Lord say this. matt 16:18-19 in which the terms church and kingdom of the heavens are used interchangeably, provesthat the kingdom of the heavens came when the church was established.

now this is why i believe what i believe. i can go more indepth but if you choose not to believe then there is no reason for me to go further. also if you are on track with me and have questions then it is easier for me to answer them here then to wait and then you get really confused.

rach
i will answer your question in a bit but i wanted to get this reason of the kingdom of the heavens settled with proof before i start on yours. it is easier for me to refute one at a time then trying to answer different questions and get confused. i am not known to multitask very well. i hope you understand.

God bless you all

Hi 7angels....I'm sorry, but I just don't see the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven being different. In Matt 19 and Mark 10 they speak of the same event, where Jesus tells the disciples to let the little children 'come to him', because the kingdom belongs to them. One uses 'of God' and the other uses 'of heaven'. It's the same thing.
And I'm sorry, I couldn't quite catch where you said the idea that the Kingdom of God started at the foundation of the world. Naturally God is sovereign...always has been, always will be, but were in scripture does it talk of the Kingdom of God other than in reference to Jesus bringing it to earth and then the ultimate fulfilment of it at the end of time?
I hold to an 'already, not yet' end time theology in regards to the kingdom. When Jesus died on the cross...well, probably more accurately, at Pentecost when the Spirit showed up to empower the church, the Kingdom began. It works even now in the world, but it won't be fully realised until Jesus returns in triumph and glory to set up the new heaven and new earth and reign forever in that perfect place.

So, it probably will be that I don't agree with you! But I appreciate the time you took to explain your position better to me...thanks!!

 

[veteran]

The language is too similar to ignore it. They are speaking of the same event. And we can see that Rev 21 is after the '1000' years and after Satan has been cast into the lake of fire, along with 'death' and all those unsaved.

Trying to treat the Rev.20 through 22 Scripture as running chronologically is a fallacy. Not all events written there are in order.

Rev 22:13-15
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

There's the holy city and tree of life manifest on earth, yet outside the gates of the holy city are "dogs, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Obviously, that's prior to the "lake of fire" destruction of Rev.20. Yet there it is, written within the events of Rev.22.

The LORD first revealed that "day of the Lord" period back in the Old Testament prophets, showing how it will be a time of rebuke and attempted correction of the wicked.


Isa 29:18-24
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
(KJV)


Ezek 44:23-25
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and my statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
(KJV)

Yeah, the language is... too similar to ignore. But that's exactly what men's doctrines do, even saying those in Christ's Church don't need to study the Old Testament Books anymore, that we're not living in the Old Testament anymore, etc.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

He is reigning right here right now. Don't you understand that the son of man has already received (not will receive) an eternal kingdom from the ancient of days?

That's a very naive point of view. IF Yeshua` is reigning "right here right now," then He is either reigning so quietly and surreptitiously that even the devil doesn't know about it or He is the most incompetent, ineffective King EVER in human history! Since I categorically reject BOTH of these conclusions, then I also reject the notion that He is reigning "right here right now." He WILL BE the King after He arrives at His Second Coming or Second Advent. Just as He said in Matthew 25:31,

Matt. 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV

 

[Rach1370]

The Zechariah 14 Scripture is easy enough.

Zech 14:6-11
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(KJV)

Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

Again, you're presuming that I must take prophecy as literally as you do...which I don't. In fact I believe the Premillenialist falls into some trouble because of there need to be literal...but I'll discuss that later. For now, the Zechariah passage...for clarity reasons, I'm gonna post a brief commentary written by another author....

"Van Groningen argues that as we attempt to understand this most difficult passage, there are three very important things to keep in mind.

First, the prophecy is apocalyptic in terms of its structure. The use of dramatic symbols and metaphors (the reference to the Mount of Olives splitting open forming a large valley, “living water,” etc.) tells us that a literal interpretation is not likely, and that the prophecy will remain somewhat mysterious until the coming of the Messiah and the dawn of the messianic age.

Second, there is a fair bit of prophetic perspective throughout the chapter. In other words, in previous chapters of his prophecy (especially chapter 13), Zechariah has been predicting what will happen when the messianic age dawns–the Messiah will be pierced, and a fountain will be opened the cleansing of sin, which is a reference to Christ’s satisfaction for our sins upon the cross. By using images from Israel’s past (i.e., during the days of Uzziah) when YHWH defended his people, Zechariah is now pointing ahead to the fact that although additional trials and tribulation will certainly come, God will continue to deliver his people in the most amazing of ways. Zechariah foretells of how YHWH will defeat his enemies on behalf of his people (v. 3), that he will reign over the entire cosmos (vv. 4-5), and that he will rule over the nations (vv. 12-15), so as to provide freedom for his people to worship (v. 16). He will restrain those who oppose his rule (v. 17-19). Indeed, his Spirit will sanctify all of life (vv. 20-21) which clearly anticipates, and presupposes the out-pouring of the Spirit @ Pentecost.

Third, this is the final chapter of Zechariah’s prophecy and is clearly messianic. The death of the Messiah on behalf of his people (depicted in chapter 13), secures the benefits God’s people will enjoy as enumerated in chapter 14. That YHWH rules and subdues his enemies while protecting his people, is the result of the Shepherd’s death and the cleaning fountain which results. Jesus’ death is dawn of the new creation and establishes the conditions depicted in chapter 14.

To put it simply, Van Groningen sees Zechariah 14 as a prophecy of the messianic age yet to come, using apocalyptic language and symbols which relate the past experience of God’s people (in great tribulation) to their future expectations in the messianic age to come. What comes about in chapter 14, clearly flows out of the Messiah’s death and subsequent rule, ensuring that the messianic kingdom yet to come will completely surpass anything that the theocratic kingdom of Israel could ever bring about or experience."

Some of the ideas of Amillennialism wants to treat today's world as Christ's Kingdom already having come on this earth. Yet even that Zech.14 Scripture reveals a major difference than today's time, even with that rebelliousness of nations refusing to come up to Jerusalem year by year to worship The KING, The LORD of hosts. In other words, if you'll notice today, Christ has not returned to Jerusalem yet in order for that Scripture to take place, and that event is associated with earth changes there in the holy land which still have yet to come to pass.

If Christ's Kingdom does not exist today is some shape or form, why does Ephesians 1:20-23 say this:
"...that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.'

He reigns now, in this age. We know that "the age to come" is not the millennium because Jesus tells us:

"And Jesus said to them, 'The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage because they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Luke 20:34-38

Because it's very clear those Zech.14 events have yet to come to pass, does that give any of us the right to treat that Scripture as if it's metaphorical only? Absolutely not. The attempt to create spiritualizations of a declared Scripture event, simply because it goes against doctrine one wants... to hold onto, is evidence of wolves in sheep's clothing trying to get us away from the simplicity in God's Holy Writ. That Zechariah 14 Scripture is going to come to pass as written there, and it's to begin with Christ's future return.

Do you know why I'm not so quick to take the bible literally in prophetic passages? I used to, you know. But as questions arose for me, I made a startling discovery....many other things in scripture are given in figurative representations. It's not like Amil's came along and decided to start a new trend. In the OT half the prophecies about the Messiah are like this...the lamb of God will take away the sins of the world...an image we see...the daily sacrifices in the temple being replaced with one sacrifice. It was so 'vague' that not even the disciples got it until Pentecost. It was so 'vague' that not even satan understood it...not until he was defeated by Jesus rising again. So don't judge me as a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' for assuming that more than one part of scripture needs to be taken that way.

Indeed, I could as easily say that Premillers are creating trouble for their own theory by insisting that every single thing be taken literally. Lets see:

Because of the problem of evil and apostasy during the millennial age, Premil's must attempt to deal with this problem by contending that the final judgment does not take place until after the thousand years have passed. In passages such as Matthew 25:31-46, where it is explicitly taught that the final judgment occurs when our Lord returns, Premil's instead argue that there is a gap of one thousand years between our Lord’s return and the final judgment. But as Premil's often insist that they called are so, precisely because of the literal interpretation of the Scriptures and a reluctance to “spiritualize” prophetic portions of Scripture. So now we must ask our Premil friends the obvious question, “where is the one thousand year gap between Christ’s return and the final judgment taught in the Scriptures?” It is not there. The gap must be inserted even though doing so violates the plain sense of the passage and the self-professed premillennial insistence upon a literal interpretation.

The Revelation Scripture reveals when that rod of iron is for, not this present world, but for after Christ's future return.That coming event is written of so much in Scripture, how could one account for a doctrine that's directly opposed to all that?

Thus it's not about what one 'wants' to believe from Scripture, it's about understanding what God's Word says 'as written', and staying with it, and keeping Christ's warning to beware of false prophets that creep in among His people to devise ideas that directly counter His written Word.

I don't hold to Amil because "I want to"...if I held to a doctrine just because I liked how nice and fuzzy it sounded, I'd still be a pre-tribber. As I've said so very many times, I hold to what I do because I cannot see scripture supporting anything else.

Look, Veteran, I have continued this conversation with you...mostly because of the thread you started to address it. But note that apart from trying to defend my view...explaining why I cannot hold to Premil, I have not tried to push my opinion on you. I have not insulted you for holding to what you do...it's your free choice to believe it. I have not called you a wolf in sheep's clothing, and although you seem to think I'm pushing false doctrine on poor unsuspecting believers, as I said, I'm not asking anyone to believe what I believe.
So, at this point I'm going to stop debating with you. I hope from this point you have the decency to afford me the same courtesy as I have done to you. And I hope you realise that I'm not going to change my mind. I have deeper reasons for believing what I do than your persuation is capable of moving.

 

[veteran]

Again, you're presuming that I must take prophecy as literally as you do...which I don't. In fact I believe the Premillenialist falls into some trouble because of there need to be literal...but I'll discuss that later. For now, the Zechariah passage...for clarity reasons, I'm gonna post a brief commentary written by another author....

And boy, you ain't just kiddin' about not taking prophecy literally either! Doing that allows you to revert to just about anything... else instead of the simplicity of God's Holy Writ!

"Van Groningen argues that as we attempt to understand this most difficult passage, there are three very important things to keep in mind.

First, the prophecy is apocalyptic in terms of its structure. The use of dramatic symbols and metaphors (the reference to the Mount of Olives splitting open forming a large valley, “living water,” etc.) tells us that a literal interpretation is not likely, and that the prophecy will remain somewhat mysterious until the coming of the Messiah and the dawn of the messianic age.

That's starting off on a wrong basis, for God's River of Gen.2 was revealed early in His Word. It flowed out... of His Garden of Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth. Two of those rivers (Euphrates and Hiddekel or Tigris), still exist on the earth today! That's meant literally. No basis to treat it any other way. Thus the living waters idea is about a real, actual River of The Waters of Life that will manifest once again on earth, as it did flowing out of God's Eden per Genesis 2! And if that's so, it means to interpret others events, like the tree of life per Ezek.47 and Rev.22 as a real manifestation with His coming Kingdom on earth.

As for the Mount of Olives splitting in two from an earthquake per Zech.14, that's no big mystery as for that type of manifestation on this earth. We've already seen what Tsunamis and a volcanic eruption (Mt. St. Helens) can also do even in our era. So there's no reason for starting off trying to say a literal interpretation is not likely. Such erroneous thinking defies not only the Scripture as written, but common sense as to earth's past events also, including events like the flood of Noah's days, which in many ancient cultures was documented.

Second, there is a fair bit of prophetic perspective throughout the chapter. In other words, in previous chapters of his prophecy (especially chapter 13), Zechariah has been predicting what will happen when the messianic age dawns–the Messiah will be pierced, and a fountain will be opened the cleansing of sin, which is a reference to Christ’s satisfaction for our sins upon the cross. By using images from Israel’s past (i.e., during the days of Uzziah) when YHWH defended his people, Zechariah is now pointing ahead to the fact that although additional trials and tribulation will certainly come, God will continue to deliver his people in the most amazing of ways. Zechariah foretells of how YHWH will defeat his enemies on behalf of his people (v. 3), that he will reign over the entire cosmos (vv. 4-5), and that he will rule over the nations (vv. 12-15), so as to provide freedom for his people to worship (v. 16). He will restrain those who oppose his rule (v. 17-19). Indeed, his Spirit will sanctify all of life (vv. 20-21) which clearly anticipates, and presupposes the out-pouring of the Spirit @ Pentecost.

The Zech.13 chapter goes way past... the time of Christ's first coming to die on the cross.

Zech 13:8-9
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
(KJV)

So obviously, the events of the Zech.14 chapter about the "day of the Lord" when Christ Jesus returns, is being setup by the end of the Zech.13 chapter.

Third, this is the final chapter of Zechariah’s prophecy and is clearly messianic. The death of the Messiah on behalf of his people (depicted in chapter 13), secures the benefits God’s people will enjoy as enumerated in chapter 14. That YHWH rules and subdues his enemies while protecting his people, is the result of the Shepherd’s death and the cleaning fountain which results. Jesus’ death is dawn of the new creation and establishes the conditions depicted in chapter 14.

The events of Zech.14 on "the day of the Lord" were NOT fulfilled by Christ's first coming and death on the cross! The writer is establishing that fact with the phrase "dawn of the new creation...", which language can even be seen as establishing the idea of Christ's future thousand years reign of Rev.20. So if you posted this in attempt to support the Amil position, it has not so far.

To put it simply, Van Groningen sees Zechariah 14 as a prophecy of the messianic age yet to come, using apocalyptic language and symbols which relate the past experience of God’s people (in great tribulation) to their future expectations in the messianic age to come. What comes about in chapter 14, clearly flows out of the Messiah’s death and subsequent rule, ensuring that the messianic kingdom yet to come will completely surpass anything that the theocratic kingdom of Israel could ever bring about or experience."

That above could be seen by some as supporting the Amil position, but so far it does not, because of the phrases "clearly flows out of the Messiah's death and subsequent rule", and "messianic kingdom yet to come". Those phrases suggest a later time of Christ's rule than Christ's first coming.

If Christ's Kingdom does not exist today is some shape or form, why does Ephesians 1:20-23 say this:
"...that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.'

Christ's Kingdom does exist on earth today in a specific... form. It's within us, like He said (Luke 17:21). And that above Scripture is given in the SPIRITUAL sense, not the physical geographical sense like Zech.14 and Ezek.40-48, and Rev.20-22 reveals. Or have your forgotten God's original promises He gave to Abraham? It involves literal geographical locations ON this earth! And Paul said in Galatians that those of Faith on Christ Jesus have become the children of Abraham in that inheritance with him. Thus the Psalms about the 'meek' are to inherit the earth, is literal. That's Christ's inheritance also, not just His saints only.

He reigns now, in this age. We know that "the age to come" is not the millennium because Jesus tells us:

"And Jesus said to them, 'The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage because they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Luke 20:34-38

So, the resurrection is past history? Nope! Paul even rebuked a couple of brethren in 2 Tim.2:17-18 for saying the resurrection was past already.

Do you know why I'm not so quick to take the bible literally in prophetic passages? I used to, you know. But as questions arose for me, I made a startling discovery....many other things in scripture are given in figurative representations. It's not like Amil's came along and decided to start a new trend. In the OT half the prophecies about the Messiah are like this...the lamb of God will take away the sins of the world...an image we see...the daily sacrifices in the temple being replaced with one sacrifice. It was so 'vague' that not even the disciples got it until Pentecost. It was so 'vague' that not even satan understood it...not until he was defeated by Jesus rising again. So don't judge me as a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' for assuming that more than one part of scripture needs to be taken that way.

One of the greatest methods of deception today upon some is how they don't know how to distinguish the difference when God's Word is giving a symbolic metaphor, parable, or analogy, vs. a literal prophetic event that will come to pass as written.

The event of Christ's crucifixion was given literally in the Old Testament prophets (like Ps.22; Isa.7), but also symbolically in Zech.13. (smite the Shepherd and scattered sheep). Even in Gen.49:24 the stone of Israel is called a shepherd, and hints to Moses smiting the rock with waters flowing out of it. In 1 Cor.10 Paul refers to Christ as That Rock that followed Israel in the wilderness. So, smite the Rock, smite the Shepherd, got it? Those are symbolic references to Christ's crucifixion upon the cross at His first coming. But does any of that kind of symbolic reference mean Christ Jesus was not literaly crucified upon a cross? Of course not.

And I never judged you personally, nor as a wolf in sheep's clothing. Strange that you would feel a guilt association like that. Yet I am able to discern the false prophets as wolves in sheep's clothing that are behind the doctrines of men. And for today, the Amil position is becoming much more clear as to why it was formed by the doctrines of men centuries ago to lead some in Christ's Church astray.

Indeed, I could as easily say that Premillers are creating trouble for their own theory by insisting that every single thing be taken literally.

No you couldn't. Because not every passage written in God's Word is understood as literal by them. But the things... the metaphors and analogies are about DO point to literal things. You might want to study up a bit on the idea of metaphor, allegory, analogy per the idea of a language. They're only used to mask some other thing. God uses them in His Word to mask specific Truths. And He apparently did that so those who don't approach Him the way He requires won't be able to understand. If you'e angry because you find that difficult to discern, then you need to take that up with Him.

Lets see:

Because of the problem of evil and apostasy during the millennial age, Premil's must attempt to deal with this problem by contending that the final judgment does not take place until after the thousand years have passed. In passages such as Matthew 25:31-46, where it is explicitly taught that the final judgment occurs when our Lord returns, Premil's instead argue that there is a gap of one thousand years between our Lord’s return and the final judgment. But as Premil's often insist that they called are so, precisely because of the literal interpretation of the Scriptures and a reluctance to “spiritualize” prophetic portions of Scripture. So now we must ask our Premil friends the obvious question, “where is the one thousand year gap between Christ’s return and the final judgment taught in the Scriptures?” It is not there. The gap must be inserted even though doing so violates the plain sense of the passage and the self-professed premillennial insistence upon a literal interpretation.

That's a failed reasoning from the start. How? Because all... of God's Word must be taken as a whole, nothing left out that's written. The Amil position simply omits... the Rev.20 chapter like it does not even exist! Those on the pre-trib position do the same kind of thing, only pulling out specific Scripture they want, while disregarding Scripture they do not want! Why should God show those who do that anything in His Word? They chop up His Word like a butcher at a meat market and throw away a lot of it. No wonder Christ praised those of the Church of Philadelphia for not denying His Word of patience. And it does... take a lot of patience to stay in all of It as written.

I don't hold to Amil because "I want to"...if I held to a doctrine just because I liked how nice and fuzzy it sounded, I'd still be a pre-tribber. As I've said so very many times, I hold to what I do because I cannot see scripture supporting anything else.

The matter is not about holding to any particular seminary doctrine of men. The matter is about holding to God's Word as written. Satan quoted from the Psalms almost perfectly when tempting our Lord Jesus in Luke 4. But it's what he added... to the Scripture that made it read totally different.

Look, Veteran, I have continued this conversation with you...mostly because of the thread you started to address it. But note that apart from trying to defend my view...explaining why I cannot hold to Premil, I have not tried to push my opinion on you. I have not insulted you for holding to what you do...it's your free choice to believe it. I have not called you a wolf in sheep's clothing, and although you seem to think I'm pushing false doctrine on poor unsuspecting believers, as I said, I'm not asking anyone to believe what I believe.

I haven't called you a wolf in sheep's clothing either. But those who developed the Amil positions like Preterism, those definitely are wolves in sheep's clothing. If you want to try and defend them, that's your choice. I'm against their doctrine, not you personally. I'm not even against them personally, but against their doctrine. I even recognize the fact that the "tares" have Christ's Salvation open to them if they will repent and turn to Him in Faith and in Truth (Matt.13). But I won't play stupid and act like the "tares" don't exist, and that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles didn't warn us about them.

So, at this point I'm going to stop debating with you. I hope from this point you have the decency to afford me the same courtesy as I have done to you. And I hope you realise that I'm not going to change my mind. I have deeper reasons for believing what I do than your persuation is capable of moving.

Fine. That means you shouldn't care if I continue to show others here how the Amil position fails, because I'm not going to quit talking about it just because you want to.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's a very naive point of view. IF Yeshua` is reigning "right here right now," then He is either reigning so quietly and surreptitiously that even the devil doesn't know about it or He is the most incompetent, ineffective King EVER in human history! Since I categorically reject BOTH of these conclusions, then I also reject the notion that He is reigning "right here right now." He WILL BE the King after He arrives at His Second Coming or Second Advent. Just as He said in Matthew 25:31,

Matt. 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV

A naive point of view is one that can only see things in a simple way that cannot discern deeper realities. You completely ignored scriptures like:

[Jesus], Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3:22​

And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Ephesians 1:19-22​

You obviously don't realize the import of the message that the kingdom of God must rule over sin first and foremost. Full dominion over the kingdoms of the world is a process that takes time because the temple must first be built. But you can only see the kingdom from a carnal viewpoint; thus your simple-minded responses. IMO, your viewpoint makes you an enemy of the cross.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Does understanding the last trump demonstrate that the premil view is in error?

1Th 4:16 – 18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Co 15:52 - 53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Note that in both of the above verses Paul uses the term we so he is including himself (and by extension all believers) in the we of both groups. So unless we are to believe that we are taken to be with the Lord multiple times then these verses must be talking about the same event. 1Cor15:52 tells us that this occurs at the last trump. There is no qualifier in the verses that says the last trump of this or that. There is no exception in the verse that says the last trump except for the trumps of Rev. So this is either the last rump (including those of Rev or the verse is a lie). Rev10:6-7 tell’s us that there is time no more and that the mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. In addition Rev11:15 tells us that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord’s forever (not just 1000 years) at the last trump.
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So if there is time no more at the last trump, how can there still be a thousand year reign? If the mystery of God is finished at the last trump, wouldn’t that include the millennium? Is a 1000 year reign the same as for ever and ever? Would satan be set loose after God is reigning forever and ever?

And let’s not forget John also tells us that he was already in Christ’s kingdom while he was imprisoned on Patmos.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If as Scripture says John was in the kingdom of Christ approximately 1900 years ago while imprisoned it is hard to justify the belief that Christ’s kingdom is still future. In addition let’s not forget that Scripture tells us we have already been made (past tense) kings.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Why have we been made kings if our kingdom is still future?

Some will say but how can this be there will be no sin during the millennial rule. But doesn’t Scripture tell us that Christ reigns until he has placed all enemies underfoot?
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Can we really expect a sinless world before Christ places all his enemies underfoot?

 

[veteran]

Does understanding the last trump demonstrate that the premil view is in error?

1Th 4:16 – 18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Co 15:52 - 53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Note that in both of the above verses Paul uses the term we so he is including himself (and by extension all believers) in the we of both groups. So unless we are to believe that we are taken to be with the Lord multiple times then these verses must be talking about the same event. 1Cor15:52 tells us that this occurs at the last trump. There is no qualifier in the verses that says the last trump of this or that. There is no exception in the verse that says the last trump except for the trumps of Rev. So this is either the last rump (including those of Rev or the verse is a lie). Rev10:6-7 tell’s us that there is time no more and that the mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. In addition Rev11:15 tells us that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord’s forever (not just 1000 years) at the last trump.
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So if there is time no more at the last trump, how can there still be a thousand year reign? If the mystery of God is finished at the last trump, wouldn’t that include the millennium? Is a 1000 year reign the same as for ever and ever? Would satan be set loose after God is reigning forever and ever?

And yet, how is it that God defined the 'days' of His creation back at Gen.1, even with the first day before the sun and moon were set?

Christ's future Millennium reign is actually a pause just prior to the start of God's Eternity. It represents a seventh day of rest with the previous thousand year periods having begun with Adam (around 4004 B.C.).

And let’s not forget John also tells us that he was already in Christ’s kingdom while he was imprisoned on Patmos.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If as Scripture says John was in the kingdom of Christ approximately 1900 years ago while imprisoned it is hard to justify the belief that Christ’s kingdom is still future. In addition let’s not forget that Scripture tells us we have already been made (past tense) kings.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Why have we been made kings if our kingdom is still future?

We have been already, spiritually that is. Not literally yet. That literal being made kings and priests is still to come. What Amillennialists forget (or willingly omit) from Scripture is Christ's literal return to this earth how He ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives (Acts 1; Zech.14). Those who say Christ's second coming is not a literal return how He ascended have denied that Scripture witness as written, along with the many events to occur on earth associated with it as written, which if all that Scripture were put together would probably make up about one quarter of God's Word. How should one of Christ's servants treat a doctrine that openly denies that much of His written Word?

That's how one can know a doctrine that teaches our Lord Jesus' second coming is only meant spiritually is a lie, simply because if that were true, then it would also suggest that even Christ's first coming never happened literally either, and that it was only a spiritual coming too! Just who would want a believer on Jesus Christ to be fooled by the spiritualizing of His advents to this earth? That's easy, the false Jews, those who reject Christ's second literal coming of the future just as strongly as they rejected His first literal coming.