Amillenialism, True or False?

[jiggyfly]

Could it be His forever and ever kingdom? After all aren’t we told that He returns at the last trump. For it to be the last trump it would have to include the 7 trumps of Rev or 1Cor15:52 would be a lie as written.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

John told us he was already “in the kingdom and patience of Christ” roughly 1900 years ago while imprisoned on the isle of Patmos.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John would not have claimed he was already in the kingdom of Christ, if Christ’s kingdom was still in the future.

Figurative language is used in prophecy to describe literal events. Could it be that the millennial reign is a case of figurative language describing the Christian era?

G5507 χίλιοι chilioi khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
It does appear that many have built a definite doctrine on a plural of uncertain affinity, or to put it another way a definite doctrine on an indefinite plural.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Either there are some really old dudes walking around or Christ has already set up the kingdom. I haven’t seen any 1900+ year old dudes walking around lately have any of you?

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Christ established his kingdom back in the first century then He made us kings and handed the keys to the kingdom to us (the church).
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
Sadly it appears that we have done a poor job and allowed much to be set loose both here and in heaven.

I appreciate your response but I was more interested in what Rach believes about the topic.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Rach, not to butt in, but if those verses do not speak of the millennial reign of Jesus then what event do you think those verses are speaking about?

Hey Jiggy! I believe those verses speak of Christ's second coming. I believe both they and all the other verses that speak of His return tell us that it's going to be one huge event. Just to sum it up:

1 Thess 4:15-17 tell us when He returns the dead will be raised and both they and all other believers still alive will be given new eternal bodies, which we are told in 1 Cor 15:20 will be needed to inherit the new heavens and earth.

Matt 24:37-41 tells us that when Jesus returns the sheep and goats will be separated and then Judged...the white throne judgement.

1 Cor 15:24-28 tell us that when people are raised to life, it will mean the 'death of death'...the very last enemy to be conquered.

2 Peter 3:10 tell us that on the Day of the Lord, He will return and the heavens and earth will burned up and dissolved.

So, in short, I just can't see scripture talking about any other event but the final one! Jesus returns, judges, gives believers their eternal bodies, the old heavens and earth pass away, the new ones come and we begin our eternal lives in God's presence, glorifying Him always. I cannot see even a little wriggle room for a 1000 year earthly kingdom in which their is still sin and death and rebellion against our Lord.

 

[veteran]

One has to completely... deny the existence of the Revelation 20 chapter in order to believe there is no Biblical evidence of a "thousand years" reign by Christ Jesus and His elect, after... His literal return.

Not only must those deny that Rev.20 chapter, but also the latter parts of the Zech.14 chapter, the Ezekiel 40 through 47 chapters, and so on...

Since those don't really want to be found denying those Scriptures, they must instead try another tactic to try and discard them, and that is to treat them figuratively, and not literally. Doing that with God's Word is to interpret His Word the way one wants... to interpret, the way they want the end to happen, and not actually how the Scriptures reads.

Doing those things is an example of one lying to theirself, as it won't change one iota how the events are to come to pass as written.

 

[Rach1370]

One has to completely... deny the existence of the Revelation 20 chapter in order to believe there is no Biblical evidence of a "thousand years" reign by Christ Jesus and His elect, after... His literal return.

Not only must those deny that Rev.20 chapter, but also the latter parts of the Zech.14 chapter, the Ezekiel 40 through 47 chapters, and so on...

Since those don't really want to be found denying those Scriptures, they must instead try another tactic to try and discard them, and that is to treat them figuratively, and not literally. Doing that with God's Word is to interpret His Word the way one wants... to interpret, the way they want the end to happen, and not actually how the Scriptures reads.

Doing those things is an example of one lying to theirself, as it won't change one iota how the events are to come to pass as written.

Actually, to come up with a literal 1000 yr reign you have to ignore all the other scriptures above that talk of His coming and the end as one and the same event, and only take the word of that one little itty bitty passage. So, according to hermeneutics, you're doing it backwards...using one verse in an apocalyptic book to interpret many other verses that are clear and not trying to explain themselves in picturesque language.
It's all very simple Veteran...I'm not trying to seduce people over to 'the dark side', I'm not pulling this out of nowhere, and I'm not lying to myself or denying scripture. You can accuse all you want and take all the pot shots you want, it won't change that I'm actually reading scripture more accurately than you are. I know you don't like it...it's probably one of the reasons behind all said pot shots. I don't care if you think I'm wrong, and I don't care if you think I'm crazy for believing whole heartedly that the Holy Spirit Himself led me to my conclusions, in fact, let's just ignore my beliefs for a second. If we're going to look at your claims, they have to able to be seen in a proper exegetical light, and the simple fact remains that you cannot back your claims up with solid biblical principles. You are making one verse alter your entire reading of eschatological matters. You read every single verse that speaks of Jesus return, or even sounds like it may refer to the 'day of the Lord', with the assumption that Rev 20 is the Rosetta stone. Not only is that not sound, it's foolish. You then have the nerve to claim I'm unbiblical, and a liar. I'm sorry, I find that unbearably funny!
You say I ignore Zech and Ezek...no wait, interpret them 'figuratively' instead of 'literally' (which is apparently your guiding star when it comes to Biblical interpretation)...except you told me a while back that you don't actually take everything literally...that idea was a fallacy. So, some scripture you hold to a literal interpretation, some you hold to a figurative interpretation. And that makes you different to me how? It doesn't. Again...hilarious.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ABSOLUTELY I believe that the Jews in Isra'el will be rescued after their tribulation! How do I come to this conclusion? Simple: God's Word in his prophecies of Zechariah, <snip>

Regarding the Zechariah prophecy, you're bearing false witness. The theory of an earthly rescue is largely based a fraudulent version of Zechariah 14:5 (the one that you listed). Zechariah 14:5 states:

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Azal, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.​

There is ample evidence that this event has already occurred. So it's not about the future, and it's definately not about a rescue.

 

[jiggyfly]

One has to completely... deny the existence of the Revelation 20 chapter in order to believe there is no Biblical evidence of a "thousand years" reign by Christ Jesus and His elect, after... His literal return.

Not only must those deny that Rev.20 chapter, but also the latter parts of the Zech.14 chapter, the Ezekiel 40 through 47 chapters, and so on...

Since those don't really want to be found denying those Scriptures, they must instead try another tactic to try and discard them, and that is to treat them figuratively, and not literally. Doing that with God's Word is to interpret His Word the way one wants... to interpret, the way they want the end to happen, and not actually how the Scriptures reads.

Doing those things is an example of one lying to theirself, as it won't change one iota how the events are to come to pass as written.

And don't forget many/most of Jesus' parables to the Jews concerning Israel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ABSOLUTELY I believe that the Jews in Isra'el will be rescued after their tribulation! How do I come to this conclusion? Simple: God's Word in his prophecies of Zechariah, <snip>

Here's a picture I just found that graphically shows how the theory that Zechariah 14:5 describes a future rescue in which people flee east through a split Mount of Olives to Azal is impossible. It was taken by an American graduate student in Jerusalem during her first tour of the city in which she was shown the valley of Azal, which she describes in her blog - An American Girl in Jerusalem. So it is evident that the location of Azal is common knowledge in Jerusalem.

The valley of Azal covers the entire lower half of the picture; the headwater is to the left of the steep, bare earth embankment in the left of the photo; and the mouth of the valley is at the far right of the photo where the valley of Azal joins the Kidron Valley at the base of the Mount of Olives (far right middle in photo). This view to the north shows the neighborhood of Abu Tor on the north slopes of Azal, and the Dome of the Rock beyond it in the middle of the picture. As is evident, Azal lies south of both the old city of Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives. This fact alone renders impossible the theory that people will flee east through a split Mount of Olives to Azal.

 

[Ridgerunner]

God gave the Earth to Adam. Adam was made the ruler of the Earth and all that it contained (Gen 1:28). When Adam fell, he delivered his God-given authority into Satan's hands (Luke 4:6). All mankind then became Satan's legal possession. When scripture says "we are bought with a price," that was not just some theoretical acquisition. We were purchased from Satan's kingdom by Jesus' precious blood when we accept Jesus as our personal Savior. By a sovereign act, God the Father then transfers us "out of the domain (or kingdom) of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Col 1:13). If one is looking for the kingdom age, there it is, right where the Bible has been saying it was all along. The kingdom of the Lord Jesus has existed ever since Act 2:33-36. Which explains how John could say he was “in the kingdom and patience of Christ” while he was imprisoned on Patmos. At the end of this age, Jesus will indeed return to Earth with His Holy angels and His "holy ones" (in their glorified bodies), all of whom who went to be with Him at the last trumpet (1Co 15:52).

Rev 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded (the last trumpet) and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of HisChrist; and He will reign forever and ever.' "

Not for just for a thousand years, but forever!

John was not lying when he said he was “in the kingdom and patience of Christ” approximately 1900 years ago. Sadly most do not realize this. They say the condition of today’s world proves Christ isn’t reigning but they fail to realize that Christ reigns until He has placed all enemies under foot (1Cor15:25) and until all His enemies have been defeated there will still be sin and death. They also fail to realize we have no one to blame but ourselves for the condition the world is in. Jesus bound the enemy at the cross (John 12:32) and then gave the Church the keys:
Mat 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The world is in the condition it is today because we, the Church, have not done our job. And just as Scripture warned, Satan has been loosed upon us . . .
Rev 20:7-8 "And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore."

But the lukewarm Laodicean church of our own day has again set Satan free. Look at the spiritual conditions that have enveloped America in the last 4+ decades. We Christians are responsible -- we are Jesus' kings and priests (and have been for approximately 1900+ years according to Rev1:6 and Rev5:10)-- and if we really understand we are responsible we get busy serving the Lord so we will "not be ashamed at His coming." If we (believers) really believe that "judgment begins at the household of God," then we (believers) "work out our own salvation in fear and trembling," in Godly fear of those trials "which are coming upon the earth".

 

[veteran]

Rev 20:1-9
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(KJV)


6 times above our Lord Jesus showed John about that literal "thousand years" period for after His return. NO WHERE does it say Christ's reign with His elect ends... after that thousand years period. Those pushing that kind of ignorance must think the rest of us are stupid and can't read for ourselves!

 

[Rach1370]

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Ok...question. If Jesus' second coming brings the death of death (1 Cor 15:24-28) and also the raising to life of all, some to everlasting life, others to everlasting punishment (1Thess 4:15-17; Matt 24:31-46), then how is it that in your 'millennium' that the 'rest of the dead' won't live again until the end of that period? You're reading into it, finding things that it does not say to fit your ideas.

6 times above our Lord Jesus showed John about that literal "thousand years" period for after His return. NO WHERE does it say Christ's reign with His elect ends... after that thousand years period. Those pushing that kind of ignorance must think the rest of us are stupid and can't read for ourselves!

Actually, it doesn't say 'literal 1000 years'. And no, it doesn't say Christ's reign with elect ends. I suppose that to mean eternity, which is a more 'literal' reading of it...you are supposing that it means it will keep going after the millennium ends. So again you're reading into it something that it does not explicitly state. That's not stupidity, its a desperate need to find in it something that it doesn't actually say...just like all the other verses you have provided. It just doesn't support your ideas. Again, you are letting Rev 20 be your Rosetta Stone for all the other verses, rather than the other way around...it's hermeneutics 101 my friend...you let the bible interpret the Bible. All of the verses speak of Christ's return bring the end, not a literal 1000 year reign...and even your Rev 20 doesn't speak of a literal 1000 years...it just doesn't say that.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It's not ignorant nor do we think you are stupid, just mistaken. Maybe some day you will stick to the merits of the view instead of trying to make it look like others are ignorant or implying you are stupid when neither is the case. Sad tactics indeed, I'll keep you in my prayers!

The origins of the commonly held premillenial view held by many in todays churches is a direct result of the writings of an excommunicated reformed dutch theologian. In the 17[sup]th[/sup] century Jean de Labadie (granted he wasn’t the first to come up with this doctrine but he was the one that made it popular) a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, that left Catholicism and joined the reformed church and was later excommunicated from that church due to his heretical writings that led to the false premillenial doctrine becoming commonly espoused in today’s churches.

veteran, can you address the issues and answer the following questions? A simple yes or no will do. No need for long drawn out explanations that only nullify the truth of the Scriptures.
Was John lying when he said he was already in the kingdom and patience of Christ(Rev1:9)?
Was John lying when he said “hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”(Rev1:5)?
Was John lying when he said “hast made us unto our God kings and priests”(Rev5:10)?
Is Col1:13 in error?
Col1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Absolutely not.!!

Are those who dismiss what John told us, so they can cling to their doctrine in error? Absolutely, the above verses are undeniable and clearly demonstrate that Christ’s kingdom was established in the first century and He will reign until He has placed all under His feet at which time He will turn the kingdom over to His Father and the two will reign together forever and ever!

1Co 15:24-5 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet

When does this occur? At the last trump.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever

Trying to claim that just because Rev20:6 states that we shall be kings and priests proves the millennium future is a fallacy. It only shows that those doing so cannot recognize that even though we have been reigning since the first century when Christ’s kingdom was established we shall continue to reign with Christ until He has placed all enemies under His feet.

Those who insist that the millennial reign is a literal 1000 years fail to recognize that the word translated as thousand is Chilioi which is a plural of uncertain affinity so it could literally mean thousands. So those who insist it is a literal thousand are basing a definite doctrine on an indefinite plural. Isn’t that a bit of an oxymoron?

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

As you are led friend, as you are led!!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rach.

For one last time, in the effort for you to recognise that what I believe does not damn my soul...let's keep it simple.

Is Jesus right now seated on a Throne in heaven? Ruling and reigning?

Does the Kingdom of God exist right now?

Yes. No, and No.

Simple enough?

Shalom, Rach.

Let me be clearer. Yeshua` IS seated with His Father on a throne in what some people call "Heaven," the New Jerusalem. However, His time spent there is to "make a place for us." (John 14:1-3) None of us have gone there, even those who have "passed away" before us.

John 14:1-3
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek: "monai" = "rooms; apartments; mansions"): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psalm 110:1)
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord ("Master" = Greek: "Kurios"; Hebrew: "Adonay") and Christ ("Messiah" = Greek: "Christos"; Hebrew: "Mashiach").
KJV

Psalm 110:1-7
1 The LORD (YHVH = the Tetragrammaton; God's NAME) said unto my Lord (Adoniy = "my-Master; my-Sire"), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD (YHVH) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek (Melkhiy-Tsedeq = "King-of-Righteousness").
5 The Lord (Adonay = "Master; Sire") at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
KJV

One, like David, does not "go to Heaven" when he dies. His "spirit" (his "breath") is separated from his "soul" (his "breathing creature; breather") and he awaits the Resurrection of his body. IF His "spirit" is the "immaterial part" of his being and goes to be with the Lord at death, it is INCOMPLETE without his body and will NOT be satisfied by anything he "sees" or "experiences" in the New Jerusalem without that body! I actually believe that his "spirit" is his ACTUAL, LITERAL "breath" that leaves his body at death. (See Ecclesiastes 3:21.) That body goes into the ground, into a tomb, is dumped into the water, or is burned to ashes, and he ceases to exist until the Resurrection, which is a specific form of God's Creative power. The "soul" (Hebrew: "nefesh"; Greek: "psuchee" = "breather; one who breathes") is the combination of the "body" (Hebrew: "geviyah"; Greek: "sooma" = "a literal, physical body") and the "spirit" (Hebrew: "ruach"; Greek "pneuma" = "breath; wind").

One absolutely MUST remember that God the Father (YHVH) is a DIFFERENT PERSON than the Son of God (Adonay in this passage), despite the doctrine of the Trinity that teaches that God the Father, the Son of God, and the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) are all one God! The same doctrine of the Trinity also teaches that they are three Persons in one Godhead! As such, they have different missions and different functions! This is clearest to see at Yeshua`s Death: YHVH was the Judge, meting out judgment against Sin in the person of His Son ("Yet it pleased YHVH to bruise Him! HE hath put Him to grief!" Isaiah 53:10); Yeshua` the Son of God was the substitutiary Sacrifice, "becoming sin for us who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); and the Ruach haQodesh was One who raised the Son of God back to life in His Resurrection (Romans 8:11), the "Firstfruits" of the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:23)!

He is NOT ruling and reigning right now; there's no one there (at least in body) over whom to rule and reign!

The Kingdom of God is absent right now, because the Kingdom of God is BOUND WITHIN the presence of the King Apparent! If the King Apparent were literally King right now somewhere on this earth, I would move there in a heartbeat! However, He is NOT now the King as He is destined to be. We may consider ourselves to be His future subjects for that Kingdom, but as yet there is nowhere for us to go.

This is what Yeshua` meant when He said TO THE PHARISEES, "The Kingdom of God is AMONG YOU!" (Not "within you.") While Yeshua` was physically among the P'rushiym standing around Him at the time, they HAD the possibility of the Kingdom of God beginning right then! They chose to reject Him, however, and He took His legitimate offer of the Kingdom of God WITH HIM when He left this earth with the promise that He would return.

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation (Greek: parateereeseoos = "visible inspection; 'pomp and circumstance'"):
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you (Greek: "hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin" = "the kingdom of-the God within/among you [plural] is").
KJV

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

Make no mistake; there WILL be a place for us to go when He returns to begin His reign in Isra'el from Har Tsiyown (Mount Zion), in Yerushalayim! And, it is to THAT place we will be transported when He sends His messengers to gather us at the final shofar (trumpet).

And, by the way, you're misunderstanding 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Remember, the context here is the concept of the RESURRECTION! These verses speak of ALL the Resurrections! The first Resurrection (with a glorified body) is the Messiah Himself, the "Firstfruits." The next Resurrection will be of those who belong to the Messiah at His coming, and the final Resurrection will be at the End AFTER Yeshua` (who has already come back at this time) has put down all His enemies. There's a two-stage development being revealed here: First, Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God) who becomes haMelekh Yisra'el (the King of Isra'el) resurrects those who are His. This happens PRIOR to His subduction of His enemies. Then, AFTER He has put down all His enemies, AFTER He has been physically, literally reigning from Isra'el, subduing His enemies DURING the Millennium, He will deliver up the Kingdom to His Father and then subject Himself to His Father, that God (YHVH) may be all in all! That doesn't mean that He ceases to reign; it just means that He turns over the EMPIRE to His Father and goes back to reigning strictly over Isra'el.

The death of Death doesn't happen at the beginning of the Millennium; it happens at the END of it. You should take some time to harmonize 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 with Revelation 20:1-15 and 21:1-2. Use the "death of Death" as the key between the two. You may want to add in 2 Peter 3:3-13, as well. However, as a word of warning, 2 Peter 3:3-13 won't be intelligible to those who do not believe in Creation as opposed to Evolution.

 

[Rach1370]

...let's keep it simple.

Is Jesus right now seated on a Throne in heaven? Ruling and reigning?

Does the Kingdom of God exist right now?

Shalom, Rach.

Yes. No, and No.

Simple enough?

Hey Retro! In answer to your very simple answers (thankyou!!) I'd like to present these verses for your consideration!

Is Jesus ruling and reigning?

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, (Ephesians 1:20-22 ESV)

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (1 Peter 3:22 ESV)

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. (Colossians 2:9-10 ESV)

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:24-26 ESV)


and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Revelation 1:5-6 ESV)


Does the Kingdom of God exist right now?

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:47-50 ESV) (The very clear implication here is that the Kingdom is 'gathering' both good and bad now, and that the sorting will happen at 'the end' of the age)

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3 ESV)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36 ESV)


And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14 ESV)

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:13-14 ESV)

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. (Matthew 13:19 ESV)

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
(Acts 8:12 ESV)

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
(Romans 14:17-18 ESV)

So, I would say there is plenty evidence to suggest that Jesus is not just warming a throne, but reigning from it right now, and that the Kingdom of God is also right now, being preached and gathering souls to it.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rach.

Well, I asked for it. As a word of precaution, please understand that much of this will take a while to answer, not because they are difficult to answer or because I don't have or know the answers, but because they will simply take time to develop to the point you will understand them or be able to accept them if you give them an unbiased consideration. Okay here goes:

Hey Retro! In answer to your very simple answers (thankyou!!) I'd like to present these verses for your consideration!

Is Jesus ruling and reigning?

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, (Ephesians 1:20-22 ESV)

Paul, in writing to the "called out" assembly at Ephesus, was talking to them about how they were the "accepted in the Beloved," the "Beloved," of course, referring to Yeshua` the Messiah, the Son of God, of whom God said, "This is my BELOVED Son in whom I am well pleased." Thus, their identity was rooted in the identity of the Beloved! To anchor their understanding to the immutability of God's prophecies and predictions about His Son, Paul in his writing anchored the Son Himself in a place that was humanly untouchable, by drawing their attention to His literal position. This passage is not talking about the Son's authority over "all rule and authority and power and dominion and ... every name that is named," but is talking about the Son's LITERAL POSITION ABOVE "all rule and authority and power and dominion and ... every name that is named." His point is to show that they have no power at all to hurt Him again or to influence Him in any way! He is physically out of their reach! It may SOUND like a matter of authority, but the Greek word "exousia" is never used referring to the Messiah's authority in this passage!

The phrase "far above" in the Greek is the one word "huperanoo," which literally means "above upward" or "upwardly above." Strong's gives it the additional definition of "greatly higher (in place or rank)," but Its FIRST meaning is "greatly higher in place!" "Huper" can mean "over, above, or beyond," thus, the word can also mean "upwardly beyond." Yeshua` is upwardly beyond "all rule and authority and power and dominion and ... every name that is named."

Finally, verse 22 is qualified in the statement "all things under his feet," by the dative phrase "tee ekleesia" which was translated "to the church" but also means "for the church." In other words, it is only the beginning of putting all things under His feet, STARTING for the "called out" assembly!

More to come (hopefully).

 

[Rach1370]

Shalom, Rach.

Well, I asked for it. As a word of precaution, please understand that much of this will take a while to answer, not because they are difficult to answer or because I don't have or know the answers, but because they will simply take time to develop to the point you will understand them or be able to accept them if you give them an unbiased consideration. Okay here goes:

Hey Retro! I certainly don't mind discussing this all with you...not at all! But what I ask you to keep in mind is that when I started my own digging into eschatological matters, I was Pre-trib,Pre-mil. But that view left me with so many questions. So I decided to do as your suggesting. I kept an open mind, unbiased by any views at all, and just read the scriptures. It was unbiased consideration that led me to where I am! But by all means, I will hear what you say and give it due consideration and discussion!

Paul, in writing to the "called out" assembly at Ephesus, was talking to them about how they were the "accepted in the Beloved," the "Beloved," of course, referring to Yeshua` the Messiah, the Son of God, of whom God said, "This is my BELOVED Son in whom I am well pleased." Thus, their identity was rooted in the identity of the Beloved! To anchor their understanding to the immutability of God's prophecies and predictions about His Son, Paul in his writing anchored the Son Himself in a place that was humanly untouchable, by drawing their attention to His literal position. This passage is not talking about the Son's authority over "all rule and authority and power and dominion and ... every name that is named," but is talking about the Son's LITERAL POSITION ABOVE "all rule and authority and power and dominion and ... every name that is named." His point is to show that they have no power at all to hurt Him again or to influence Him in any way! He is physically out of their reach! It may SOUND like a matter of authority, but the Greek word "exousia" is never used referring to the Messiah's authority in this passage!

I'm afraid I disagree with this. Paul, in the above passage, is praying that the brothers at Ephesus will have the wisdom to comprehend what blessing they are inheriting through Christ. There is no way you can gain the inference that what Paul is talking about is Jesus' "literal" position up in the heavens! I cannot see how you would pull that from the text, that he is reassuring them that Jesus cannot be harmed again, because he is out of reach. I'm sorry, but it's simply not there.

The phrase "far above" in the Greek is the one word "huperanoo," which literally means "above upward" or "upwardly above." Strong's gives it the additional definition of "greatly higher (in place or rank)," but Its FIRST meaning is "greatly higher in place!" "Huper" can mean "over, above, or beyond," thus, the word can also mean "upwardly beyond." Yeshua` is upwardly beyond "all rule and authority and power and dominion and ... every name that is named."

Again, I'm afraid I have to disagree. While I accept that the word 'far above' could be taken as Christ's literal, physical position, it just cannot be read that way when put in context with the rest of the passage. Here's what I found in my digging into the definition of these verses mean:

huperanó: (high) above
From huper and ano; above upward, i.e. Greatly higher (in place or rank) -- far above, over.

arché: beginning, origin
properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

exousia: power to act, authority
(a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, ( in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.

dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength
(a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning ( plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.

kuriotés: lordship
(a) abstr: lordship, ( concr: divine or angelic lordship, domination, dignity, usually with reference to a celestial hierarchy.

So Paul here is not just talking about where Jesus is...'huperano'...above all earth and earthly influence. He specifically says that Jesus is above all power, authority and has lordship and dominion. We cannot take it anyway else...Jesus is where He is, right not, reigning on high.

Finally, verse 22 is qualified in the statement "all things under his feet," by the dative phrase "tee ekleesia" which was translated "to the church" but also means "for the church." In other words, it is only the beginning of putting all things under His feet, STARTING for the "called out" assembly!

More to come (hopefully).

Yes, this part of history is 'the beginning'. The end is mentioned clearly in scripture:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ESV)

It seems very clear to me. Jesus is reigning now, above all power, rule and authority. God has given this power to Him...not 'will', but 'has'. The 'end' will come when Jesus is finished destroying all rule and authority that is under Him...the last enemy is death. We already know that death is conqueored at Christ's second coming, when the dead are raised to life and given new bodies. To me, I cannot read it any other way...it is just to clear....Jesus' second coming will bring the end...the end of death, the end of sin and rebellion and the end of this world, bring the new heavens and earth to be and giving all to the Father, so that the Father may be glorified by all, even Christ.

 

[veteran]

It seems very clear to me. Jesus is reigning now, above all power, rule and authority. God has given this power to Him...not 'will', but 'has'. The 'end' will come when Jesus is finished destroying all rule and authority that is under Him...the last enemy is death. We already know that death is conqueored at Christ's second coming, when the dead are raised to life and given new bodies. To me, I cannot read it any other way...it is just to clear....Jesus' second coming will bring the end...the end of death, the end of sin and rebellion and the end of this world, bring the new heavens and earth to be and giving all to the Father, so that the Father may be glorified by all, even Christ.

But once one reads the Rev.20 Scripture, that 1 Cor.15:23-28 Scripture must be understood to include a Millennium period AFTER Christ's return. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets with the 1 Cor.15 Scripture, and the Millennium period is hinted at there, like the end of Zech.14, Psalms 2 about the "rod of iron" Christ is rule over the nations after His return. Rev.2:27 is a direct... reference to that Psalms 2 "rod of iron" event, so let's see what timing that rod is for per Rev.2...


Rev 2:25-28
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
(KJV)

That's to begin AFTER... Christ's second coming, which the following is also that same future timing...

Rev 19:13-16
13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(KJV)


So the 'Millennium today' thinking is nothing but a grand deception.

 

[Rach1370]

But once one reads the Rev.20 Scripture, that 1 Cor.15:23-28 Scripture must be understood to include a Millennium period AFTER Christ's return. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets with the 1 Cor.15 Scripture, and the Millennium period is hinted at there, like the end of Zech.14, Psalms 2 about the "rod of iron" Christ is rule over the nations after His return. Rev.2:27 is a direct... reference to that Psalms 2 "rod of iron" event, so let's see what timing that rod is for per Rev.2...

I think you are vastly mistaken. You have it backwards. You are taking one verse and using it to interpret many others...others that are very plain and simple.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (2 Peter 3:10 ESV)

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(2 Peter 3:11-13 ESV)

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. (Revelation 20:11 ESV) This is the judgement of people, and you'll notice that it happens after the millennium...but we also know that this judgement happens when Christ comes back:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. ... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-33, 46 ESV)

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26 ESV)

So you are taking one verse in an obscure and highly apocalyptic book, and using it to interpret all these other passages. If you put aside, just for a moment, your preconceived notions about a literal reign on earth, then it is unbearably easy to see that the Bible teaches that when Jesus returns, it is the end of human history. We shall be judged, death will be conquered for all time, and the heavens and earth will pass away in fire, bringing the new heavens and earth.

In fact, we could even discuss the whole "this age" and the "age to come". Nowhere is there room for an 'intermediate age'...one in which human history as we know it is over, but before the eternal state.

who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. (Mark 10:30 ESV)

who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:30 ESV)

far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:21-23 ESV)

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:32 ESV)

So we can see that according to Jesus and the apostles, there is this age, and then there is the 'age to come'. What is this 'age to come?' Well, from above we can clearly see that the 'age to come' is the eternal state. Once Jesus returns and ushers in the new heavens and earth, once we have been given our new bodies at His return, we will then be in the 'age to come'. And Jesus even touches on other things in the 'age to come'.

And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36 ESV)

Jesus tells us that the 'age to come' is the eternal state. It cannot be the millennium, as your literal earthly millennium must still have death, birth and marriage to some extent. So, again and again in scripture itself (not the musings of a heretical person, as you seem to see me) tells us that there is no room for that period of time you support.

 

[veteran]

I think you are vastly mistaken. You have it backwards. You are taking one verse and using it to interpret many others...others that are very plain and simple.

Nothing backwards about the time when Christ will rule with that "rod of iron" over all nations. It's specifically associated with a time after... His return, meaning after His SECOND coming, not His first coming.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (2 Peter 3:10 ESV)

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

(2 Peter 3:11-13 ESV)

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. (Revelation 20:11 ESV)


This is the judgement of people, and you'll notice that it happens after the millennium...but we also know that this judgement happens when Christ comes back:

Peter did not give every detail there as to the order of events, which is why our Lord Jesus gave us the order in His Book of Revelation (which follows closely the order in the OT prophets). This Zechariah 14 Scripture was written prior, and I have no doubts Peter agreed with it 100%...

Zech 14:8-11
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(KJV)

Zech 14:16-18
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

Why try to modify what was already written in Zech.14 when Peter wrote His Epistle? I am 100% certain Apostle Peter was well familiar with the Zech.14 Scripture, simply because he was pulling from the OT prophets like Christ Jesus and all His Apostles did, for the Old Testament Books was all they had written in their days.



Peter did not leave us guessing about what he wrote in 2 Pet.3. He actually did... cover the idea of Christ's future "thousand years" reign to take place prior to the new heavens and a new earth...

2 Pet 3:7-9
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(KJV)

How will our Heavenly Father not be slack in His promise, with being longsuffering and not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance? Well, what idea of a day to God is as a thousand years was Peter referring to? Simple, Christ's future Millennium reign to begin on the day of His return per Rev.20, and per the OT prophets.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. ... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-33, 46 ESV)

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26 ESV)

So you are taking one verse in an obscure and highly apocalyptic book, and using it to interpret all these other passages. If you put aside, just for a moment, your preconceived notions about a literal reign on earth, then it is unbearably easy to see that the Bible teaches that when Jesus returns, it is the end of human history. We shall be judged, death will be conquered for all time, and the heavens and earth will pass away in fire, bringing the new heavens and earth.

I'm not the one that's trying to piece Scripture together here outside Biblical context. You're trying to piece Scripture together according to your views that there is no such future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect (even though it's clearly written of in Rev.20, given to John by our Lord Jesus). We cannot pick and choose what Scripture we wish to heed, and Scripture we wish to omit. All of God's Word must be taken as a whole.

If you understood that, then you would never... call any part of God's Holy Writ "obscure".

Besides, I've already covered what Paul was speaking of in the 1 Cor.15:23-28 verses, to include the time of Christ's future reign over all... the wicked, using His "rod of iron". I even went back to the Old Testament Scripture about it, like Psalms 2.

In fact, we could even discuss the whole "this age" and the "age to come". Nowhere is there room for an 'intermediate age'...one in which human history as we know it is over, but before the eternal state.

Not outside what Peter showed in 2 Pet.3 we couldn't. Nor outside what God gave His prophets to write either, nor outside what Christ Jesus said, nor any of His Apostles, especially including through Apostle John in the Revelation 20 chapter! And man, there's something like 9 whole chapters written in Ezekiel about Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked.

Our Lord Jesus Himself even marked that event clearly...

Rev 22:13-15
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

How is it those 'goats' He separates on the left hand, are STILL THERE when the Holy City and "tree of life" is manifested on earth? Simple. It's because the Rev.20 Scripture about His future "thousand years" literal reign over the wicked with His elect is actually going to happen, starting at His second coming. That's who His "rod of iron" is destined for.

who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. (Mark 10:30 ESV)

who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:30 ESV)

far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:21-23 ESV)

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:32 ESV)

So we can see that according to Jesus and the apostles, there is this age, and then there is the 'age to come'. What is this 'age to come?' Well, from above we can clearly see that the 'age to come' is the eternal state. Once Jesus returns and ushers in the new heavens and earth, once we have been given our new bodies at His return, we will then be in the 'age to come'. And Jesus even touches on other things in the 'age to come'.

You mean you don't understand about the "resurrection of damnation" that happens on the 'day' of Christ's return? (John 5:28-29). Sounds like you've been taught something else, probably the false idea that the wicked aren't resurrected until the Great White Throne Judgment, and then immediatley they go into the lake of fire. Many believe that, but that's not the actual idea, simply because all of God's Word must be understood about that, especially the OT prophets. The latter part of Zech.14 about those left of the nations that came up against Jerusalem still existing having to come up to worship Christ during the Millennium should be enough Biblical proof of this. Yet there's more in the OT prophets, like Ezek.44 about the 'dead', which what our Lord Jesus said about those in the "outer darkness" after His return also very much agrees with this.

So far, it appears you're only interested in adhering to what you've been taught by others to believe about this matter. That's OK, as this gives me all the more opportunity to reveal this to others who are interested in verifying in the Scriptures for theirselves.

And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36 ESV)

Jesus tells us that the 'age to come' is the eternal state. It cannot be the millennium, as your literal earthly millennium must still have death, birth and marriage to some extent. So, again and again in scripture itself (not the musings of a heretical person, as you seem to see me) tells us that there is no room for that period of time you support.

Well, since you've been taught to totally disregard the Rev.20 chapter, it's certain that you've completely missed the Biblical concept of spiritual death, death to one's soul and spirit, which is... called the "second death" in Rev.20.

No worries, for that concept of the "second death" was actually covered back in the OT prophets too!

Isa 24:19-23
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
(KJV)

How is it those wicked are gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and then shut up in the prison WHILE... the LORD of hosts reigns in mount Zion??? And then after many days, they are visited?

There's a lot more OT Scripture in the prophets about that time. So the Revelation 20 chapter does not... merely stand by itself like those who taught you think.

 

[Rach1370]

MmmHmm. I'm finished discussing this with you now. It's achieving nothing. Cheers.

 

[daq]

I can't believe I read this entire thread! :huh: Rach you rock!

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 KJV
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.

The Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him pa`amayim, (1Kings 11:9) and the Preacher knew what it was to live a thousand years pa`amayim, (Ecclesiastes 6:6).