And the truth shall set you free...

[Marymog]

May I suggest that the problem exists because Jesus's teachings have not been made the primary focus of our churches. If all we had was the teachings of Christ, there would be no confusion.

Again to reiterate Jesus's words: "if you abide in my words you shall know the truth".

Are you saying that there is NOT ONE church that has made Jesus teachings the primary focus of their church (doctrine)?

Have you made Jesus teaching's the primary focus of what you believe (doctrine)?

Curious Mary...

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

I can show you all kinds of "Well what about this scripture?"....but first we need to get past the contradiction in 1 Samuel.

Post the passage from 1 Samuel that you believe Paul contradicted and then post the passage of the contradiction from Paul. If it's there I'll see it and so will everyone else. We need to substantiate your claim before we move forward....wouldn't you agree? There's no point in doing a back and forth if nothing has been established.

Bring forth the evidence and let's have a discussion.
.

Paul states:

Are you saying that there is NOT ONE church that has made Jesus teachings the primary focus of their church (doctrine)?

Have you made Jesus teaching's the primary focus of what you believe (doctrine)?

Curious Mary...

No, I am speaking generally about churches and yes, Jesus's teaching are all that I base my faith upon.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Actually, people followed Jesus and his gospel before either the bible, or Paul. I don't think you realize the heresy you embrace, by stating: "Any setting up of the gospels over and above the rest is not a Christian belief." The teachings of Christ, found in the gospels, is the bases of Christianity period and only a heretic would claim otherwise.

Hang on, you haven't addressed the point at all. People who followed Jesus and His gospel included Peter, who endorses Paul, and eventually Paul himself. Any heresy is yours, the teachings of Christ as you were shown are not just in the Gospels, the Nicene Creed, a very basic statement has references from the whole Bible.
As for the example I gave, Ephesians 5:31 (31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”) as in Matthew 19 and Mark 10, it is generally agreed to have been written down before any of the gospels.
Appendix 8: Chronological Order of the Books of the New Testament - Bible Study Tools

You agree God created male and female to be united and not two people of the same sex, yes? Am I right?

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

I can show you all kinds of "Well what about this scripture?"....but first we need to get past the contradiction in 1 Samuel.

Post the passage from 1 Samuel that you believe Paul contradicted and then post the passage of the contradiction from Paul. If it's there I'll see it and so will everyone else. We need to substantiate your claim before we move forward....wouldn't you agree? There's no point in doing a back and forth if nothing has been established.

Bring forth the evidence and let's have a discussion.
.

1 Samuel 8 verse 7 quotes God as stating: they have rejected me, that I should not reign/rule over them.

Now if Kings were ministers of God, then God would be ruling over them, as it is with those who are subjects of Christ.


In verse 18 we read:
18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

Very clearly you see that Samuel distinguishes the king as belonging to the People: they are not servants/ministers of God.


In Chapter 10 we read:
19And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us.

If kings are ministers/servants of God, as Paul teaches the gentile Kings are, then the children of Israel were not rejecting God, that he should not rule over them: because he would be.


Now Paul states:

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Not only does Paul condone the evil done by Kings, Paul claims they are righteous for returning evil for evil, which is very clearly against the teachings of the King of kings.

Now hear Daniel, in chapter 9:

5We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 8O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.9To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Notice how both Samuel and Daniel distinguish the kings belonging to the people and how Samuel stated God said: they have rejected me, that I should not reign/rule over them.

Still want to call Samuel a liar: by claiming earthly rulers are ministers/servants of God as Paul did?

 

[Marymog]

Paul states:

No, I am speaking generally about churches and yes, Jesus's teaching are all that I base my faith upon.

Sweet....In general which Church has the most TRUTH in it? Which Church (doctrine) do YOU agree with the most?

OR...You could name me the top 10 things that Jesus has taught you that you have 'based your faith upon'!! Your choice!!

Curious Mary!!

 

[Guestman]

What about one who teaches it is okay to kill with the sword, when Jesus condemns such behaviour, what will happen to them?

Please give an explanation of what you are speaking of.

 

[Job]

Now Paul states:

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

You do understand that all Paul is doing here is telling us to obey laws set forth by man?.......right?

Not only does Paul condone the evil done by Kings, Paul claims they are righteous for returning evil for evil, which is very clearly against the teachings of the King of kings.

Where is this claim made? I can't find it. I looked and looked and looked. Show me where it is.
.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Sweet....In general which Church has the most TRUTH in it? Which Church (doctrine) do YOU agree with the most?

OR...You could name me the top 10 things that Jesus has taught you that you have 'based your faith upon'!! Your choice!!

Curious Mary!!

I wish I could say I have found a denomination that I could fully support. We are all individuals and Christ is suppose to be our Leader, not a group of men with a creed. Sadly, I have found major issues with most denominations, but if I had to chose one it might be the mennonites, as they espouse the understanding, from a denominational standpoint, of the importance of Christ as one's King and not just a saviour: without subjection to him as sovereign. Having stated that, I have issues with them embracing Paul's concept of women as subjects of their husbands and not as being their equals.

I think it might be more helpful for me to share what structural truths I have come to: because of my commitment to Christ.

First, Christ is suppose to be our King/Ruler/Lord, if he is not one's Sovereign, he is not their saviour.

While it is a popular doctrine that mankind is saved by faith, apart from works, Jesus clearly taught that we will know a wolf from a sheep by their works, and that those who work inequity will be told to depart into everlasting darkness. Works define a person's faith.

Second, Love is affection, if one has affection for others, they will not want to see harm come to them: in any way. Ultimately our emotions tell the true state of our hearts, not our intellect. To walk right with God we need to not justify bad emotions, but rather, we need to ask God for forgiveness, for our lack of love(hatred) and realize we are wrong; if we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us of all our unrighteousness.

When a person acts with bad emotions, you are seeing a mirror into their past. No matter what you have done, they could respond in a better way towards you, but when you personalize their reaction and respond in a bad way, it is the equivalent of 2 wrongs not making a right. You should not respond with evil for evil, but rather, good for evil. Those who act with bad emotions are expressing their pain, from past emotional experiences, it has nothing to do with you, feel for them, don't hate them.

Third, we are eachothers equals. We are all in the same boat together. Many of us have been scarred in really bad ways and we don't know how to fix ourselves, it's not that we want to be bad, it is just that some have given up and don't know how to heal. Just as it is true that you want to be the best person you can be, so it is true of everyone else. I know that may be hard to believe, but we were all made in God's image and we will not find true contentment until we return to peace, which is found in living out the teachings of Christ.

4th, Love yourself: if you have little to no love for yourself, it means little to nothing, to love your neighbor as yourself. You are made in God's image. God thought you important enough to take the time to breath His spirit into your body and give you consciousness. Love yourself a GREAT amount and love others with that same volume.

5th, Jesus established a New Covenant, don't think that he came to establish of rework the old one, he didn't. His teachings are different and higher in nature then the 10 Commandments: telling someone "thou shalt not" doesn't show them how to live; Jesus came to be the model for us to copy.

6th, don't tithe as the levites and the laws regarding taking care of them, don't apply to you. Not one of the Apostles were from the tribe of Levi and they would have thought it blasphemous to take a tithe from someone, how much less rite do gentiles have to do so? Don't get caught up in Sabbath keeping and debates about which day one aught to observe; Jesus didn't keep the Sabbath: he told a man to carry his bed on the Sabbath and that was grounds for stoning under the Old Covenant. Don't make issue with regards to what foods you can and cannot eat; Jesus said: its not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of a man.

7th, use the Strong's Concordance to research the meaning of words. With a book the size of the bible, you will not get a perfect translation. Many words don't translate between languages. In order to get the real meaning behind some words, you must have the meaning behind the word explained. If I asked 100 people to define the word love, I would probably get quite a few different meanings, in the same way it can be difficult trying to explain some words in other languages, but fortunately we have a book in which over 110 language scholars worked on, dedicated to giving us the meaning behind each Greek and Hebrew word. Take the time to check out the meaning behind the words written, especially when you see a verse that looks like it just doesn't quite fit, more often than not, a little research into the words origin will solve the mystery.

8th, don't care about glorified dirt; many people have killed others over material wealth, which is totally unnecessary: seeing the world has more than enough abundance to care for us all.

9th Forgive at all cost; If you want your eternal debt erased, forgive all; Hitler is closer in character to you, than you are to God. See Matthew 18: 21-35.

The gospel of Christ is about how to be forgiven: by releasing others of debts; blessed are the merciful: for they shall receive mercy. Forgive and you shall be forgiven.

Number 10, pray for God's help. You have not because you ask not... Ask and you shall receive.

I want to thank you for asking me for this list, I am in need of currently putting number 10 and 11 into practice.

Number 11 be thankful for everything, knowing that God is in control and he has a plan, even when things look dark: his will is being done.

I decided to give you 12 even though you asked for 10. Number 12, don't make issue over what a person intellectually believes, it is only how one actually lives that matters.

I hope this is of service to you.

May God and his Christ, bring you peace.

 

[skyangel]

I know that others must have preached on this in the past, but it seems as though very few have ever taken the time to study the context of Jesus' words "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Many people think they have been set free, but continue to live in sin, Jesus stated "whoever sins is a servant to sin", do people care at all about what Jesus teaches, or are they just interested in using the bible and Jesus to live in a state of delusion, while they amass sin upon sin: with no turning from them? What say you?

I John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

According to the above scripture anyone who sins is of the devil. In my mind that means any Christian who continues to sin is also still of the devil and has not been born again at all.
To be born again is to be born of God and according to....
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

According to the above scripture anyone who is really born of God or really born again, SIMPLY CANNOT SIN.. BECAUSE they are BORN OF GOD and have the seed of God in them.
If that seed of God is the LIGHT within them, that LIGHT theoretically should dispel ALL darkness within them and there would be nothing left but LIGHT within since darkness cannot remain in the presence of Light.

People who claim to be born again and continue in sin are of the devil. They are following a false Christ and have been blinded and seduced by a deception.
People who are children of light are the light of the world ( Matt 5 :14) in the same way Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12, John 9:5). They are ONE with the LIGHT and cannot sin any more than the LIGHT can sin because they are ONE LIGHT not many different lights.

"I AM the light of the world". Those who know they are ONE with the LIGHT can honestly say the same words Jesus said and have the assurance they are 100% true because they are ONE.
People who continue to sin are not one with the light.

Rom 6:1-15 "Shall we sin that grace may abound? .....God FORBID."

Too many people make excuses with struggling between flesh and spirit and claim Paul had the same problem as they quote Romans 7 but what they fail to include is that the answer to the problem lies in Romans 8. The simple solution is to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
People who claim to be filled with the Spirit and continue to walk in the flesh are deceiving themselves.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

You do understand that all Paul is doing here is telling us to obey laws set forth by man?.......right?


Where is this claim made? I can't find it. I looked and looked and looked. Show me where it is.
.

Paul states: he that bares the sword is a minister/servant of God to execute wrath upon those that evil. What do you suppose Paul meant by executing wrath with a sword: the soldiers are cutting peoples bread with it? You think it not evil/hurtful to execute a person for their sins? Didn't Jesus tell us to pray for God to forgive us our debts as we forgive those who trespass against us? Did you fail to read what Jesus stated in Matthew 18 verses 21 through 35:

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

You think it not evil to execute a person with a sword? Or maybe you think that Paul isn't sanctioning those who bare the sword and claiming them as being right(eous), when he says they are MINISTERS of GOD, to execute wrath on them that do evil. Which is it?

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

I John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

According to the above scripture anyone who sins is of the devil. In my mind that means any Christian who continues to sin is also still of the devil and has not been born again at all.
To be born again is to be born of God and according to....
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

According to the above scripture anyone who is really born of God or really born again, SIMPLY CANNOT SIN.. BECAUSE they are BORN OF GOD and have the seed of God in them.
If that seed of God is the LIGHT within them, that LIGHT theoretically should dispel ALL darkness within them and there would be nothing left but LIGHT within since darkness cannot remain in the presence of Light.

People who claim to be born again and continue in sin are of the devil. They are following a false Christ and have been blinded and seduced by a deception.
People who are children of light are the light of the world ( Matt 5 :14) in the same way Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12, John 9:5). They are ONE with the LIGHT and cannot sin any more than the LIGHT can sin because they are ONE LIGHT not many different lights.

"I AM the light of the world". Those who know they are ONE with the LIGHT can honestly say the same words Jesus said and have the assurance they are 100% true because they are ONE.
People who continue to sin are not one with the light.

Rom 6:1-15 "Shall we sin that grace may abound? .....God FORBID."

Too many people make excuses with struggling between flesh and spirit and claim Paul had the same problem as they quote Romans 7 but what they fail to include is that the answer to the problem lies in Romans 8. The simple solution is to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
People who claim to be filled with the Spirit and continue to walk in the flesh are deceiving themselves.

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but differ with some of the process. In 1John 2 and verse 1 we have this statement: 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...

Now first, it should be noted, that John states if and not when, any man sins. But John does leave room for error, just as Jesus did with Peter, when he stated: Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I believe you have a clear understanding of the Lordship of Christ in your life and thus you speak with boldness. Most only have been taught of Jesus as saviour and don't know Jesus as Lord and for this reason I agree with you, that most have been deceived.

May I ask you: what spiritual rearing you had, in order for you to have gained such a faith in Christ?

 

[skyangel]

Whos expectations? Our or His.

For everyone

I ask this question

Which man is qualified to condemn another of sin?? Which christian on this earth is perfect and without sin, and is able to condemn another, for to call a man a sinner is to condemn that man, no differnt than standing before a judge and telling him this man is a thief. To do so one must stand on the side of teh accuser, for to call any man a sinner no matter what teh circumstance is to make an accusation.. Now who is the accuser??? Jesus or teh devil??? Whos side are you on??

"He that is without sin" is qualified to cast the first stone according to John 8:7
Any Christian on Earth who is truly born of God cannot sin according to 1 John 3:9
If calling other people sinners is condemnation, are you claiming that Jesus condemned the self right hypocrites by calling them what they were.... children of hell, blind guides, fools, whited sepulchres, serpents, a generation of vipers, etc... Matt 23.?

If a man is a thief and you stand before a judge and accuse him of theft. If you have proof then you are not condemning the the man at all, you are merely stating the truth of what he is. If that Truth condemns the thief whose fault is that? Yours for telling the truth or the thiefs for stealing and getting caught?
Jesus accused the religious people who claimed to believe in God of being hypocrites etc. Was he standing on their side or trying to justify their hypocrisy? NO. He was simply speaking the TRUTH and that made them hate him all the more because they refused to repent of their hypocrisy and self righteousness.
They called him a mad man and a liar and accused him of blasphemy and of breaking Gods laws etc. In the eyes of the religious believers, the character Jesus was a sinner and they condemned him to death. Ultimately in the story Jesus forgave them.. Why? Because they had no clue they were doing wrong. "Forgive them BECAUSE they KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO".(Luke 23:34)
They were ignorant of their own sins and offended by the TRUTH of them but how many repented? They as a group decided to throw out the TRUTH and call it a lie and the messenger of Truth a liar. The same principle is found in religions today. Anyone who does not agree with the doctrines of "X" religion is cast out and treated as an infidel or pagan as those in the "X" religion pat themselves on their backs for casting out the devil or evil from amongst them. Put whatever denomination you like in the place of "X". They all work on the same principle.

It is not a condemnation to call a sinner a sinner. It is a statement of fact. It is no different to calling a spade a spade. It is what it is.
Those who are without sin FORGIVE sinners but they do not tiptoe around the TRUTH of them being sinners in the first place. They tell them to STOP SINNING and SIN NO MORE. ( John 5:14, John 8:11)
According to John 5:14. Those who do not stop sinning end up having a WORSE thing come upon them.
Now I ask you, what can be worse than being a sinner who does not even believe in God?
How about a sinner who claims to be born of God? What kind of a liar are they when they lie to themselves and convince themselves their own lies are true?

 

[skyangel]

I agree, but Sword seems to be saying he does not sin anymore, although he did not answer the question with a yes or no. He avoids the Scriptures which show, even though we are no longer slaves to sin, we will still sin. Continual repentance is commanded by God.

The scriptures do not show that at all. They teach that if you continue to walk in the flesh you cannot stop sinning (2 Peter 2:10-14) but IF you walk and live in the Spirit, you will not sin any more than Jesus did because it will not be you doing anything but the Spirit of God within you doing all the works and saying all the words. (Gal 5:16, Rom 8:1, Matt 10:16-20, 1 John 3:9)
Dead people cannot sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Please give an explanation of what you are speaking of.

See Romans 13 verses 1 through 4, in particular verse 4 states: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[skyangel]

Paul states: he that bares the sword is a minister/servant of God to execute wrath upon those that evil. What do you suppose Paul meant by executing wrath with a sword: the soldiers are cutting peoples bread with it? You think it not evil/hurtful to execute a person for their sins? Didn't Jesus tell us to pray for God to forgive us our debts as we forgive those who trespass against us? Did you fail to read what Jesus stated in Matthew 18 verses 21 through 35:

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

You think it not evil to execute a person with a sword? Or maybe you think that Paul isn't sanctioning those who bare the sword and claiming them as being right(eous), when he says they are MINISTERS of GOD, to execute wrath on them that do evil. Which is it?

I doubt Paul is referring to a literal sword. Look at Eph 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 and you might understand it is referring to the sword of the spirit which is the word of God.
Jesus in a sense executed unrightousness with the same sword of the spirit as he cut asunder the flesh from spirit when he appeared to condemn the hypocrites for their hypocrisy but was only speaking the Truth which cut them to the heart and either brought them to repentance through conviction or brought them to anger and retaliation due to feeling condemned. The very same sword ("Word of God" or TRUTH) does both things at once. It condemns, crucifies or kills the flesh and at the same time convicts the spirit to bring sinners to repentance and forgives the sin and makes them righteous. The "sword" is no different to the LIGHT which dispels, kills or destroys darkness while at the same time replacing that darkness with light.
It is not about executing physical people at all. It is about destroying "the flesh" or carnal nature with the Truth also known as the "word of God"
After all, God himself ( Ex 20:1) threatens to execute people with the "sword" in the bible stories... Ex 22:24.
Paul seems to be following that example.

Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

The Sword of the Spirit is available to all who walk in the Spirit. It will always crucify the flesh and cause division between soul and spirit.
The general idea is to crucify or kill off the fleshly carnal nature and live in the Truth of the Spirit.
A "non religious" version is to "kill" the "inner evil nature" by overcoming it with ones "inner goodness".

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

The scriptures do not show that at all. They teach that if you continue to walk in the flesh you cannot stop sinning (2 Peter 2:10-14) but IF you walk and live in the Spirit, you will not sin any more than Jesus did because it will not be you doing anything but the Spirit of God within you doing all the works and saying all the words. (Gal 5:16, Rom 8:1, Matt 10:16-20, 1 John 3:9)
Dead people cannot sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

To add to your belief that Paul taught that those in Christ don't walk after the flesh we have these verses in chapter 7:
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2For the woman which hath an husband (the husband represents a person's flesh) is bound by the law to her husband (flesh) so long as he (the flesh) liveth; but if the husband (the flesh) be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband (flesh). 3So then if, while her husband (flesh) liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband(flesh) be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were (past tense) in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You are quite correct in your claims of Paul's faith. Actually in verses 18 Paul states:
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now Paul continues in chapter 8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

While Paul taught we cannot serve God through our flesh (physical body), Jesus taught our works will define us and ultimately determine our eternal destination (Matthew 25):
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Strong's clearly defines the word flesh as defining the physical body, unless someone has a better definition it appears as if Paul is stating we cannot serve God with our physical body. Having stated that, it is our body that houses our spirit and that we show acts of charity through. I am willing to hear other ideas about Paul's definition for the word translated "flesh", but just make sure it can stand up to Jesus's test doctrinally.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

I doubt Paul is referring to a literal sword. Look at Eph 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 and you might understand it is referring to the sword of the spirit which is the word of God.
Jesus in a sense executed unrightousness with the same sword of the spirit as he cut asunder the flesh from spirit when he appeared to condemn the hypocrites for their hypocrisy but was only speaking the Truth which cut them to the heart and either brought them to repentance through conviction or brought them to anger and retaliation due to feeling condemned. The very same sword ("Word of God" or TRUTH) does both things at once. It condemns, crucifies or kills the flesh and at the same time convicts the spirit to bring sinners to repentance and forgives the sin and makes them righteous. The "sword" is no different to the LIGHT which dispels, kills or destroys darkness while at the same time replacing that darkness with light.
It is not about executing physical people at all. It is about destroying "the flesh" or carnal nature with the Truth also known as the "word of God"
After all, God himself ( Ex 20:1) threatens to execute people with the "sword" in the bible stories... Ex 22:24.
Paul seems to be following that example.

Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

The Sword of the Spirit is available to all who walk in the Spirit. It will always crucify the flesh and cause division between soul and spirit.
The general idea is to crucify or kill off the fleshly carnal nature and live in the Truth of the Spirit.
A "non religious" version is to "kill" the "inner evil nature" by overcoming it with ones "inner goodness".

I appreciate your post and the angle you are using for the word sword. But here is a number of concerns I have with the text. First, Paul states that Gentile rulers are ministers/servants of God, when clearly God states that by asking for a king, the children of Israel have rejected God: that he should not rule over them.

So Paul's statement, that they are ministers/servants of God, is false. If the kings represented God as God's servants, then God would be ruling over the children of Israel through kings just as he did through his servants the prophets: but this is clearly not the case.

Paul also states, if you do good you will receive praise from rulers and this also is not true: just ask the thousands of early Christians that were thrown to the lions, or the Apostles, which most were killed by said rulers or ask Christ, also killed by an earthly ruler. It appears as if Paul is appealing to Caesar himself: when he penned the text he did in Romans 13.

 

[skyangel]

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but differ with some of the process. In 1John 2 and verse 1 we have this statement: 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...

Now first, it should be noted, that John states if and not when, any man sins. But John does leave room for error, just as Jesus did with Peter, when he stated: Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

First,1 John 3:4 defines sin as a transgression of the law. The question is which law? The bible teaches about the law of the Spirit of life vs the law of sin and death. It is one law against the other law.... Spirit sins against flesh when it transgresses the law of sin and death. Flesh transgresses against Spirit when it transgresses the law of the Spirit of Life. However, there is no advocate for the flesh but the Spirit advocates the sin against the flesh and encourages people to crucify their flesh.

I will present it another way... The bible teaches about the fleshly side of mankind and the spiritual side of mankind and often seems to treat the two like two separate people, one as an unrighteous person and the other as a righteous person but ultimately they are just two aspects of the very same person.
Consider Romans 7 where we find the concept of the flesh warring or sinning against the spirit and the spirit warring or sinning against the flesh. From a fleshly point of view, it seems to be "impossible" to not sin against something but when the Spirit "sins" against the flesh by offending it hurting it or emotionally upsetting it... etc, the motives are not selfish. An example is when Jesus offended the hypocrites with the TRUTH. In their eyes he was sinning, blaspheming and all kinds of things but in the eyes of the Spirit he was simply telling the Truth which is not a sin at all.

The character Jesus was a Spirit in the flesh. Those who judged his fleshly actions and words with their own flesh instead of spirit judged him as sinful and of the devil and they had every right to do so since in the eyes of the flesh he was telling lies, and making himself equal with God, blaspheming etc. However, in the eyes of the Spirit and in Jesus own "inner eyes" and revelation it is not a sin to be equal with God and not a sin to tell the Truth regardless of how much that Truth might hurt or offend others.
To the flesh, the works of the Spirit are sinful, prideful, arrogant, etc. But the flesh looks exactly the same to the Spirit so there is and always will be that conflict between them in spite of them being part of each other. It is much like day and night, light and darkness are part of each other yet also separate. Light dispels darkness while at the same time also creating the darkness. Righteousness overcomes unrighteousness while at the same time making the righteous appear to be self righteous.
The advocate, advocates the sin of the spirit against the flesh but condemns the sin of the flesh against the Spirit.
That is why it is possible to be angry but not sin in anger and possible to speak the Truth which may offend the flesh without being offensive to the Spirit.

None are without sin. Not even Jesus was without sin in the flesh since he was accused of sin by others and did things which he told others not to do like calling people fools.
The moral of the story is that the outward appearances are superficial to the motives of the heart. Sinning is not about what we do but more about WHY we do it. It is about the motives of the heart not about the outward actions. If the heart is pure and the motives are right, even killing a person can be justified as long as it's not done in malice or with preconceived evil motives. If you accidentally killed another person in self defence for example, those who knew the story would never condemn you for it.
However that's no reason to make excuses for the flesh or keep living and walking in the flesh. Understanding that the spirit and flesh are enemies and each side will always be accused of sinning against the other side might help you to make sense of it all.
Not even the character Jesus who was considered to be perfect and sinless by some people, was considered to be perfect by all in the story and is not even considered to be perfect by all readers today.

The bible says none are righteous /perfect ( Rom 3:10) but it also mentions righteous/perfect people in the bible, (Gen 6:9, Gen7:1, 1 Kings 15:14, 2 Ch 15:17, Job 1:1, Job 1:8,)
...so it appears to be contradicting itself but it is not when you understand that none in the flesh are perfect but all in the Spirit are perfect and that Romans 3 is referring to people who were not walking in the Spirit... Those people according to Rom 3:17-18 did not know the way of peace and had no fear of God. Those are the unrighteous people which verse 10 is referring to. It is not referring to people who know the ways of peace etc.
It is a shame that so many take the scriptures out of context to justify their own unrighteousness.

I believe you have a clear understanding of the Lordship of Christ in your life and thus you speak with boldness. Most only have been taught of Jesus as saviour and don't know Jesus as Lord and for this reason I agree with you, that most have been deceived.

May I ask you: what spiritual rearing you had, in order for you to have gained such a faith in Christ?

I was brought up in an atheist/agnostic household. When I was 15 years old I was converted to "Christ" through a Pentecostal meeting which I was invited to. My parents always encouraged me to ask questions and seek the truth for myself. Over the years I learned about the various doctrines in the Pentecostal movement and became a Sunday School teacher, Youth Leader and home group leader. One thing led to another and I began to question some things which made me feel uneasy. We changed churches a few times attended a few different ones as visitors, learned about other doctrines in other churches like Baptist, Methodist, Catholic etc which were more subdued than the Pentecostals. However, the idolatry weighed heavily on my heart and spirit so I ended up leaving religion altogether and just reading the bible for myself, all the time hoping and praying that the Spirit would be my guide and I would no longer need to rely on man or man made doctrines. ( 1 John 2:27)
I began to join various religious groups on line including debate forums and eventually met up with a person who at first thoroughly annoyed me with his attitude but as time went by and I softened my heart toward him, he started making perfect sense and explained to me that walking in "Christ" is all about living in Truth and being honest with yourself and others. It is not about worshipping idols and invisible people with supernatural powers. The power of the TRUTH is nothing supernatural. It is perfectly natural and it works the same way every time. There is nothing mysterious about it when you understand it but it is a mystery to those who become confused by it. It simply is what it is and different people react differently toward it depending on whether they accept and believe it or not.
It took me a long time to accept the fact that the Jesus character in the bible stories is merely a mythical character who personifies Truth and not some invisible person who is actually watching over us, but once I accepted it, it all made sense and it was like all the puzzle pieces fell into place. However, it also gave me a passion to share the Truth with others in the hope that they will also come out of their idolatry and worship of a false Christ who is never coming back to Earth since the Truth is always on Earth in the flesh and if people open their hearts and their "inner eyes" to receive the revelation, it is not hard to see it. It is only hard for those who wish to cling to their false invisible Christ who is never coming back to Earth in the flesh. The TRUTH ( Jesus) will never be seen by people who insist on following a false Christ because they are walking in the flesh and are of the world.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

I know very well that many believers seem to think the whole world will see "him" one day and they quote Rev 1:7 to support their belief, but the fact is that "every eye" must be referring to every eye of the past present and future for all eternity since the "eternal word" applies to all generations for ever and there never will be a time when salvation from deception or lies becomes unnecessary.
It is also a Fact that "every eye" today yesterday and tomorrow has seen and will see the TRUTH in the flesh on Earth daily yet most simply do not recognise what is right in front of their faces any better than the Pharisees did. They call the Truth a lie and call the messenger of Truth a liar and cast it out as mad or blasphemous as they prefer to cling to their invisible idol and false doctrines.
I AM the Truth. I AM the light of the world... and so is everyone else who KNOWS without a doubt who and what they are in Truth.
The Truth is inside every object and person in this planet. It's a shame that so many reject what is within them in reality in favour of something they rather chase or follow in their fantasies. Truth is not an easy thing to embrace because it can be very harsh at times, especially to the flesh and immature carnal minds.

 

[skyangel]

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

While Paul taught we cannot serve God through our flesh (physical body), Jesus taught our works will define us and ultimately determine our eternal destination (Matthew 25):
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Strong's clearly defines the word flesh as defining the physical body, unless someone has a better definition it appears as if Paul is stating we cannot serve God with our physical body. Having stated that, it is our body that houses our spirit and that we show acts of charity through. I am willing to hear other ideas about Paul's definition for the word translated "flesh", but just make sure it can stand up to Jesus's test doctrinally.

I doubt Paul was referring to the physical body when he spoke about the flesh. The reason I doubt it is because according to Rom 8:3 Jesus also walked around in the likeness of "sinful flesh" and still served God because he ruled his fleshly body by the Spirit. Why would God (Truth) send any Son (Truth) to Earth in the likeness of sinful flesh if it was impossible to serve God (Truth) in the physical body? The contrary is true because we need a physical body to manifest Truth in the first place but the problem is that very FEW understand they can see Truth in the flesh. "Truth in the flesh" seems to be invisible to most people especially those who are waiting for some invisible magic man to appear in the sky one day. Truth is nothing but Reality and Reality is all around us in the physical form in all forms of nature.
To"walk in the flesh" or "after the flesh" is not about living in a physical body. It is about a way of thinking with the fleshly carnal mind rather than with the mind of the Spirit. Read from verse 5-8 above in your quote and understand that those who are "after the flesh" are those who are carnally minded and do not have the mind of Christ. It is all about the mindset not about the physical body. A mindset which is not in tune with Truth is lost in deception.
As for our works determining any "eternal destination". It depends on whether those works are the works of the Spirit working through you or not. Jesus did not even take any credit for his own works. He claimed the Father was doing and saying everything through him and he was merely a vessel. We need to have that same attitude and mindset.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Ultimately the works of the flesh all perish and turn to dust. Only the works of the Spirit remain and are eternal.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Gen 3:19.....for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Only Spirit lives forever since it has no physical body and cannot die. It merely uses physical bodies through which to manifest itself. Living forever is not some gift which is given to any physical person in a physical way. It is an inherited aspect of the children of God (TRUTH) who are as eternal as TRUTH itself is eternal. Before Abraham was, I AM.

 

[Job]

Paul states: he that bares the sword is a minister/servant of God to execute wrath upon those that evil. What do you suppose Paul meant by executing wrath with a sword:

Paul is referencing secular society. He's telling us to obey the laws that they put forth.

Executing wrath with a sword...today we call it the death penalty.

You think it not evil to execute a person with a sword?

I'm thinking in Paul's day, they didn't have lethal injection.

Was it evil to execute Ted Bundy? What about John Wayne Gacy? Aileen Wuornos? You have to remember Paul is referencing secular society and they are not bond by our beliefs. They are free to establish their own laws and punishments and the death penalty is something they set up to deal with their worst offenders.

God has a hand in world governments. He influences world events. He puts people in positions that will accomplish His Will. When Paul calls these people "God's ministers", he's not saying they are righteous and holy. He's simply stating they were put there by God to accomplish His will.

Or maybe you think that Paul isn't sanctioning those who bare the sword and claiming them as being right(eous), when he says they are MINISTERS of GOD, to execute wrath on them that do evil. Which is it?

That's exactly what I think.
.