And the truth shall set you free...

[mjrhealth]

How about a sinner who claims to be born of God? What kind of a liar are they when they lie to themselves and convince themselves their own lies are true?

Are you not a sinner, what right does a sinner have to condemn another sinner of sin

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Paul is referencing secular society. He's telling us to obey the laws that they put forth.

Executing wrath with a sword...today we call it the death penalty.


I'm thinking in Paul's day, they didn't have lethal injection.

Was it evil to execute Ted Bundy? What about John Wayne Gacy? Aileen Wuornos? You have to remember Paul is referencing secular society and they are not bond by our beliefs. They are free to establish their own laws and punishments and the death penalty is something they set up to deal with their worst offenders.

God has a hand in world governments. He influences world events. He puts people in positions that will accomplish His Will. When Paul calls these people "God's ministers", he's not saying they are righteous and holy. He's simply stating they were put there by God to accomplish His will.


That's exactly what I think.
.

If one of your serial killers was before you and you could kill them for their sins, would you? You may want to keep Matthew 18 verse 35 in mind while you answer: 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[bbyrd009]

ha, sticky wicket there eh

 

[bbyrd009]

Executing wrath with a sword...today we call it the death penalty.

if we are referencing the world, yes, but even you could provide a spiritual definition for that, surely.
The point being that Paul can be understood from more than one pov, not that you are incorrect.

 

[Job]

If one of your serial killers was before you and you could kill them for their sins, would you? You may want to keep Matthew 18 verse 35 in mind while you answer: 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

You're making this personal. Don't do that.

I don't have any serial killers and it's not up to me to kill people for their sins.

You said Paul lied. Show me. Using the passage from 1 Samuel and the one from Romans. Put'em side by side and point out the lies without injecting your own opinion.

Can you do that?
.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

You're making this personal. Don't do that.

I don't have any serial killers and it's not up to me to kill people for their sins.

You said Paul lied. Show me. Using the passage from 1 Samuel and the one from Romans. Put'em side by side and point out the lies without injecting your own opinion.

Can you do that?
.

Why are you afraid to answer? If they are ministers of God, who put others to death for their sins, then why won't you affirm you will kill them?

And I guess Jesus is not the King of kings: if they are not subject to obeying Jesus's teachings.

 

[Job]

Why are you afraid to answer? If they are ministers of God, who put others to death for their sins, then why won't you affirm you will kill them?

As I told you before, I don't work for the state.

And when the state puts a person to death, it's for the crimes they commit, not for their sins against God.

You claim Paul is a liar. Show me where that's true. You quoted the passages in question so it should be quite easy to simply point out the errors.

Can you do that?
.

 

[Job]

And I guess Jesus is not the King of kings: if they are not subject to obeying Jesus's teachings.

You're correct. Non-believers don't recognize Jesus as King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Very good response by skyangel.... "I doubt Paul is referring to a literal sword. Look at Eph 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 and you might understand it is referring to the sword of the spirit which is the word of God. "

One needs to know the Bible holistically or one can easily set up contradictions where there arent any. The whole of the Bible is about God's love, but it only says 'God is love' once.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The Paul isnt Jesus heresy is a big liberal one. Its born from the equality feelings secular liberalism, dominated by sex.
There is no equality in heaven, many will have a greater reward than me.

 

[skyangel]

I appreciate your post and the angle you are using for the word sword. But here is a number of concerns I have with the text. First, Paul states that Gentile rulers are ministers/servants of God, when clearly God states that by asking for a king, the children of Israel have rejected God: that he should not rule over them.

So Paul's statement, that they are ministers/servants of God, is false. If the kings represented God as God's servants, then God would be ruling over the children of Israel through kings just as he did through his servants the prophets: but this is clearly not the case.

Paul also states, if you do good you will receive praise from rulers and this also is not true: just ask the thousands of early Christians that were thrown to the lions, or the Apostles, which most were killed by said rulers or ask Christ, also killed by an earthly ruler. It appears as if Paul is appealing to Caesar himself: when he penned the text he did in Romans 13.

Please understand that there is always at least two if not more ways to interpret what we read. There is the interpretation which comes from the carnal mind and the interpretation which comes from the "mind of Christ".
The carnal minded interpretation generally concentrates on outward appearances and tends to take a lot of things literally. It likes to claim that "X" applied only to the people in the story at the time and no longer applies today. It likes to find things which appear to contradict each other and claim that something must be wrong due to the apparent contradictions. It is incapable of reconciling those apparent contradictions due to biases and preconceived ideas.
However, we need to remember that things are not always what they appear to be on outward appearances and look deeper.
"The mind of Christ" understands that the TRUTH is eternal and it applies to all generations yesterday today and forever, no special treatment to anyone.
"The mind of Christ" also looks deeper than just the superficial surface. It looks to the heart of the matter and looks at eternal principles. Therefore when you read bible stories, you need to look for both ways of interpreting them, ie the carnal minded aspects of outward appearances as well as the Spiritual aspects which are deeper underlying eternal principles and those principles apply to all generations for all eternity.
Seek and you will find.

 

[skyangel]

Are you not a sinner, what right does a sinner have to condemn another sinner of sin

I condemn no one. I merely call a spade a spade. If spades feel condemned by the Truth of what they are, that is not my problem.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Please understand that there is always at least two if not more ways to interpret what we read. There is the interpretation which comes from the carnal mind and the interpretation which comes from the "mind of Christ".
The carnal minded interpretation generally concentrates on outward appearances and tends to take a lot of things literally. It likes to claim that "X" applied only to the people in the story at the time and no longer applies today. It likes to find things which appear to contradict each other and claim that something must be wrong due to the apparent contradictions. It is incapable of reconciling those apparent contradictions due to biases and preconceived ideas.
However, we need to remember that things are not always what they appear to be on outward appearances and look deeper.
"The mind of Christ" understands that the TRUTH is eternal and it applies to all generations yesterday today and forever, no special treatment to anyone.
"The mind of Christ" also looks deeper than just the superficial surface. It looks to the heart of the matter and looks at eternal principles. Therefore when you read bible stories, you need to look for both ways of interpreting them, ie the carnal minded aspects of outward appearances as well as the Spiritual aspects which are deeper underlying eternal principles and those principles apply to all generations for all eternity.
Seek and you will find.

I will not fault you for your interpretation of Romans 13, but most people, including myself, don't think the interpretation you ascribe to Romans 13 is what Paul meant. If you look at Job's posts, regarding Romans 13, I think you will find he represents most professed Christians beliefs and thus the need for this discussion.

Regarding Paul, as I have mentioned before, Paul was forsaken by all of Asia and John wrote to the churches of Asia which forsook Paul. To the very first church the very first thing mentioned to them is that they tried those who claimed to be Apostles and found them to be liars. We know Paul was forsaken by all of Asia, it becomes clear when one looks at all the evidence that John is referencing Paul.

We are told the bible, which was put together at the very end of the 4th century, is the word of God. To affirm this, men take a couple of verses and build their beliefs around them. You of all People should understand the words Jesus spoke are spirit and must be understood not by the intellect, but by the embracing of them in the way we live: in our spirits response to others. Is it not for this reason you cannot accept Paul's words as being literal, as you cannot accept doing harm to others for their transgressions, as we are all guilty of transgressions and we must seek mercy and not judgment.

As I stated before, I clearly believe Paul was eventually rejected and my goal is to try and have men place their faith in Christ and Christ alone and not get sidetracked by the controversial teachings Paul taught.

Be well.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Very good response by skyangel.... "I doubt Paul is referring to a literal sword. Look at Eph 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 and you might understand it is referring to the sword of the spirit which is the word of God. "

One needs to know the Bible holistically or one can easily set up contradictions where there arent any. The whole of the Bible is about God's love, but it only says 'God is love' once.

I am glad you feel as you do.

Peace

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

You're correct. Non-believers don't recognize Jesus as King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

You are missing the point: Jesus's words will judge all malefactors who transgress them; earthly kings are obligated to and will be judged by Jesus's teachings: there is no exception for transgressing the teachings of Christ for any man.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

As I told you before, I don't work for the state.

And when the state puts a person to death, it's for the crimes they commit, not for their sins against God.

You claim Paul is a liar. Show me where that's true. You quoted the passages in question so it should be quite easy to simply point out the errors.

Can you do that?
.

Jesus stated: the father gave me a commandment of what I should say and speak, and so how can men transgress God's teachings on forgiveness and be ministers of God: seeing they are violating the teachings of Christ?

 

[Job]

You are missing the point

You're avoiding the topic.

 

[Job]

Jesus stated: the father gave me a commandment of what I should say and speak, and so how can men transgress God's teachings on forgiveness and be ministers of God seeing they are violating the teachings of Christ?

Jesus really said all that?

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

Jesus really said all that?

Yup pretty much here it is verbatim: 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Now what part of my first quote do you take issue with?

Does the first statement not embrace the actual KJV quote?

You somehow seem tobthink that men can violate Jesus's teachings and be ministers of God.

 

[Pro Jesus Anti Paul]

You're avoiding the topic.

Is this the he said she said game? What topic am I avoiding? Maybe you just need the blanks files in.