Another Premillennial absurdity

[Truth7t7]

He is both human and God. Only those who have eyes to see will get that.

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[covenantee]

How long are you willing to wait?

As long as it takes.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let's discuss the idea, presented by the Apostle Paul, that Jesus is the image of God. What does it mean to be an "image" of something? What kinds of examples of imagery can we find in everyday life?...

I hope that with these three examples you can understand what I mean, and what the Bible means by the idea that Jesus is the image of God. This is exactly what John meant when he said that Jesus was the interpretation of God. John 1:18 Jesus is God as expressed within a human medium. Jesus has enough of the divine attributes that he perfectly images God. Jesus has God's character; loving, truthful, just and merciful, constant, and faithful. Jesus is God.

Yes, that's very helpful, and is why I view you not as a heretic but at best using language that can mislead others about Trinitarian Doctrine. What makes your examples difficult in this regard is the fact that earthly illustrations fall short of the ability to convey the difference between Deity and Humanity in God. How can a human being consisting of finite fleshly substance convey the identity of an infinite Being, who transcends human substance?

My own words fall short as well, but I try. I view God as inexpressible in His full Divine Expression, or Word. His Word conveys who He is as an inexpressible uncreated Being, who transcends any language you may use, and any substance you may wish to use to convey who He is. He is omnipresent, and cannot be consigned to a single place, like a man or a spirit.

So how do we express God in human language? Or, how does God Himself express who He is, through His own Word? I believe God is not only able to express the fact He is infinite, transcendent, and inexpressible, but He is equally capable of expressing Himself in limited modes, as you seem to be trying to indicate.

What are these modes? It is not "Modalism," which sees God in only one mode at a time, 1st the Father, then the Son, and again as the Holy Spirit. He is all 3 simultaneously.

In expressing Himself in the form of the Son He is expressing who He is, as infinite God, in a finite human person, who exists in a single place in the universe. And yet, God remains transcendent, existing throughout the universe, and yet identified in this single man, Jesus.

The omnipresent God also expresses His Divine Person through the Spirit, who is viewed in limited locations, even though God is omnipresent. How can this be? We are able to perceive the Spirit of God near us, in a particular location, identifying the same Divine Person who God says He is in the entire universe.

So how can the infinite God express who He is, personally and as the *same Divine Person* without there being essentially 2 or 3 Persons involved? He can't. In expressing His identity as a Man or as a Spirit he unavoidably shows that He is both an infinite Being and a limited human being or a spirit viewed in distinct places.

This is the basis for Trinitarian thought, that God remains an infinite Being while showing Himself truly to be identified with the Person of the Son and with the Person of the Holy Spirit, who are able to show that God can identify Himself in limited places, while retaining who He is as an infinite Being.

 

[WPM]

I understand the theological doctrine of the "hypostatic union." This doctrine came from a set of philosophical assumptions unfamiliar to the Bible. The same line of thinking also leads to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and the Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation.

1. the doctrine, especially in Lutheran belief, that the substance of the bread and wine coexists with the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

The fundamental idea behind these doctrines, which teach cannibalism, comes from the philosophical assumption that the "essence" of a thing can exist in another form. So, in the case of consubstantiation, the bread is actually and in essence, the body of Christ, even though the body of Christ also exists as a piece of bread.

Likewise, the Trinity Doctrine teaches that the essence of the one God exists in three persons. Just as a Lutheran can claim that the bread of the eucharist is, in essence, the actual body of Christ; a Lutheran can claim that the man Jesus is, in essence, God.

For the same reason I reject the doctrine of consubstantiation, I reject the doctrine of "hypostatic union." So you see, for those who have the eyes to see, I am rejecting Aristotelian philosophical assumptions. I am not rejecting Biblical teaching.

You totally changed the subject to refute something I don't believe in order to justify your blasphemy and heresy.

 

[WPM]

What if the Bible doesn't make the claims you are making?

It does, only you reject them.

 

[WPM]

For an explanation of my view of Deity, refer to my most recent posts.
You say that the Messiah was born of a virgin, and you are correct.
Anyone who truly believes that the Messiah was born of a virgin does not truly believe that he wasn't. God is self-existing and without origin. ; the messiah had a beginning he was born to a virgin.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus grew in wisdom, Luke 2:52, does not truly believe that he didn't. God is perfect in his wisdom.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus grew up from baby to man, does not truly believe that he didn't. God is immutable- he never changes. Jesus was not immutable -- he changed from being a baby to being a man.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus had needs, food etc., does not truly believe that he didn't. God is self-sufficient - he has no needs. Jesus ate bread, he slept, he prayed, walked etc.

You get the picture?

No. His deity was veiled in human flesh.

 

[WPM]

I reject your interpretation of the events and what they indicate. Consider the following passage where Jesus explains the relationship between the miracles and the Father's testimony about Jesus.

John 10:24-26

The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.​

In this short passage, the Lord substantiates his claim to be the Messiah. The miracles that Jesus performs are done in the name of the Father and in this way the Father himself is testifying about Jesus.

the works that I do in My Father’s name
How does this work? How do the miracles of Jesus stand as direct testimony from the Father himself? The Father has given the son the authority to heal the sick, cast out demons, and other works; but the power to perform such miracles is in the hands of the Father. As such, the miracles serve as the Father's testimony of the Son's authority. In this way, the miracles are signal events, which indicate the Father's agreement that Jesus is, indeed, the Messiah.

You are an expert at avoiding the many Scriptures that forbid your theology.

 

[Truth7t7]

You totally changed the subject to refute something I don't believe in order to justify your blasphemy and heresy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, that's very helpful, and is why I view you not as a heretic but at best using language that can mislead others about Trinitarian Doctrine. What makes your examples difficult in this regard is the fact that earthly illustrations fall short of the ability to convey the difference between Deity and Humanity in God. How can a human being consisting of finite fleshly substance convey the identity of an infinite Being, who transcends human substance?

The key to understanding the question you raised is to sort out the concept of "transcendence." And the best example of transcendence that I know is the author and his novel. This example is not original to me but when I heard it, all the pieces began to fall into place for me. It isn't surprising to me, then, that most of Bible is written in narrative form, relating accounts of people and how they lived.

The term "transcendence" is employed when speaking about the Deity, indicating that he exists above and independent of the universe. Not only is he independent of the material universe, he is independent of the spiritual also. An earthly example of transcendence is the author-novel relationship. The author is transcendent over the story he or she is telling. A novel is like a universe unto itself, which is created by the author. The author creates every character that exists in his novel. The author creates every situation the characters experience.

Since the author transcends the story and the characters he creates, what can we say? First of all, the characters are completely unaware of the author's existence. The characters can't know anything about the author or whether an author even exists. But if the author wished it and if it helped him tell the story, he might write himself into the story. When the author chooses to appear in the story, he creates a character, with whom other characters will interact. Let's call him the "author-character."

The author-character is written to act as the author would act, and speak as the author would speak. The transcendent author of the entire novel enters into his story in the form of a character that is like the author in every way that a character in a novel can be. No one has seen the author at any time, and neither is it possible. But because the author-character is the image of the author, in character form, the author-character can say, "If you have seen me, you have seen the author."

More can be said but hopefully you now have a better idea about my conception of the universe as it pertains to the creator-God. One more thing needs to be said at this point. One might argue that the characters in the novel are fictional, not real, and admittedly that's where the analogy breaks down. As such, we need to add another concept: "realness." In terms of what is real, we can conceive of the characters of a novel as "less real" than the author. The author is more real than his story. Likewise, God is more real than the universe he created. We are real; but God is more real. As such, no one can see God, but God can write himself into the universe so that we can interact with him. In this way and in my view, the transcendent, more-real God, wrote himself into the universe as the author-character Jesus. Jesus is God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You totally changed the subject to refute something I don't believe in order to justify your blasphemy and heresy.

It would be helpful if you were more specific. How did I change the subject and what don't you believe?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It does, only you reject them.

I was talking to someone else. But okay. In case you missed the point, the challenge we all face as believers are the reasons or lack of reasons for what we believe. During the late 19th century and the early 20th century the faith of American Christians came under attack and believers were unprepared for the onslaught. Since Christianity went unchallenged for hundreds of years during the early American experience, Christians seem to become complacent and lazy.

In that context "beliefs" were tenets of a religion, taught to children by parents. A person was a "Christian" not from conviction but from parental guidance. One was a Christian because his or her parents were Christians.

During that time, new ideas concerning the origins of the universe and alternate theories about cosmology began to challenge Christian beliefs concerning these issues. Where as Christian beliefs stood unchallenged and were accepted by most everyone, other ideas were gaining in ascendancy and acceptance. Suddenly Christians needed to have reasons for what they believe. And they faced important questions like "is faith compatible with reason?" Because Christian students at the university were unprepared to face these challenges, many of them came home from college, having lost their faith.

I don't want anyone to lose their faith, and so when I sense that someone is lacking reasons to believe, I get concerned.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. His deity was veiled in human flesh.

What does that mean?

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are an expert at avoiding the many Scriptures that forbid your theology.

My argument isn't with the scriptures. My argument is with various translations of the inspired word of God, that interject ideas that the authors didn't intend.

 

[Truth7t7]

God can write himself into the universe so that we can interact with him. In this way and in my view, the transcendent, more-real God, wrote himself into the universe as the author-character Jesus. Jesus is God.

God wrote into the Universe the Charachter Jesus?

Jesus Is Now A Created Being Instead Of The Creator

You Deny Jesus Is In The Beginning As God Creator Seen Below "Let Us"

I Agree 100% With WPM In His Shouts Of Truth "Heretical"

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

In this way and in my view, the transcendent, more-real God, wrote himself into the universe as the author-character Jesus. Jesus is God.

It is way more than this.

Adonai or Lord is the real entity outside of creation.

The entire Trinity is written into creation to present the Lord. God is as much part of creation as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is as much of creation as the Word/Jesus.

The Lord has written His being into creation as 3 persons. But even these 3 persons are the Lord outside of creation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God wrote into the Universe the Charachter Jesus?

Jesus Is Now A Created Being Instead Of The Creator

You Deny Jesus Is In The Beginning As God Creator Seen Below "Let Us"

I Agree 100% With WPM In His Shouts Of Truth "Heretical"

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Was Jesus born or not?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is way more than this.

Adonai or Lord is the real entity outside of creation.

The entire Trinity is written into creation to present the Lord. God is as much part of creation as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is as much of creation as the Word/Jesus.

The Lord has written His being into creation as 3 persons. But even these 3 persons are the Lord outside of creation.

I agree with your modal view except their can only be one outside creation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Was Jesus born or not?

You deny that Jesus Christ was in the beginning being eternal and creator of all things, your views are heretical in my opinion

Your in the wrong forum, your teachings belong in the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses forum not here

John 1:1-3KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The key to understanding the question you raised is to sort out the concept of "transcendence." And the best example of transcendence that I know is the author and his novel. This example is not original to me but when I heard it, all the pieces began to fall into place for me. It isn't surprising to me, then, that most of Bible is written in narrative form, relating accounts of people and how they lived.

The term "transcendence" is employed when speaking about the Deity, indicating that he exists above and independent of the universe. Not only is he independent of the material universe, he is independent of the spiritual also. An earthly example of transcendence is the author-novel relationship. The author is transcendent over the story he or she is telling. A novel is like a universe unto itself, which is created by the author. The author creates every character that exists in his novel. The author creates every situation the characters experience.

Since the author transcends the story and the characters he creates, what can we say? First of all, the characters are completely unaware of the author's existence. The characters can't know anything about the author or whether an author even exists. But if the author wished it and if it helped him tell the story, he might write himself into the story. When the author chooses to appear in the story, he creates a character, with whom other characters will interact. Let's call him the "author-character."

The author-character is written to act as the author would act, and speak as the author would speak. The transcendent author of the entire novel enters into his story in the form of a character that is like the author in every way that a character in a novel can be. No one has seen the author at any time, and neither is it possible. But because the author-character is the image of the author, in character form, the author-character can say, "If you have seen me, you have seen the author."

More can be said but hopefully you now have a better idea about my conception of the universe as it pertains to the creator-God. One more thing needs to be said at this point. One might argue that the characters in the novel are fictional, not real, and admittedly that's where the analogy breaks down. As such, we need to add another concept: "realness." In terms of what is real, we can conceive of the characters of a novel as "less real" than the author. The author is more real than his story. Likewise, God is more real than the universe he created. We are real; but God is more real. As such, no one can see God, but God can write himself into the universe so that we can interact with him. In this way and in my view, the transcendent, more-real God, wrote himself into the universe as the author-character Jesus. Jesus is God.

Yea, that's a great way to put it. I do accept your sense of divine transcendence, which is precisely what makes it difficult to express the Trinity or the idea that Jesus is God.

Key to all, though, is identification, which you have adequately expressed. The author uses a finite "mode," human characters, to express His "story" in creation. They are less "real" than Him in His transcendence, although I wouldn't use the terms "less real"--God's creation is, to me, as real as He is.

But I think that is what you're saying, that God is greater than His creation, and that apart from Him, nothing could exist? His life surpasses all finite life, inasmuch as anything less than eternal loses its significance, apart from God, in eternity.

But identification is the key factor. God created a character less than Himself in His transcendence, but that character expresses who He actually is, if even down on a lower level of existence.

I hope I haven't butchered what you were trying to say? Sounds good to me as I've expressed it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You deny that Jesus Christ was in the beginning being eternal and creator of all things, your views are heretical in my opinion

Your in the wrong forum, your teachings belong in the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses forum not here

John 1:1-3KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Can someone born be eternal?