Another Premillennial absurdity

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Truth7t7

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You seem unable or unwilling to intelligently discuss any point I made. Okay, I get it. You don't want to discuss it.
You aren't going to back peddle from your statement made Randy

Quote Randy Kluth Post #1039


"But identification is the key factor. God created a character less than Himself in His transcendence, but that character expresses who He actually is, if even down on a lower level of existence.

I hope I haven't butchered what you were trying to say?
Sounds good to me as I've expressed it."

Birds of a feather flock together


Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 1:1-3KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 
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Randy Kluth

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You aren't going to back peddle from your statement made Randy

Quote Randy Kluth Post #1039


"But identification is the key factor. God created a character less than Himself in His transcendence, but that character expresses who He actually is, if even down on a lower level of existence.

I hope I haven't butchered what you were trying to say?
Sounds good to me as I've expressed it."

Birds of a feather flock together


Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 1:1-3KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Backpedal? I don't think so. I gave you a reasonable proposed view of the Trinity, and you give me your usual insubstantial quips. I'm perfectly happy to discuss it with you or anybody. But you gave no response at all, except to disagree with it.
 

robert derrick

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God will keep His promise to Abraham, and will give him the land that he walked on.

Until you address this simple fact of Scripture, all your teaching is proven suspect at best.
Revelation 10:1-3: “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

He gives the little book to John, and tells him he must prophesy more.

This is not His second coming.

They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life.

I never have conceded any such thing. You teach it, and I don't.

The kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of the Lord, to rule over with a rod of iron.

And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And while the saints rejoice, the rebellious nations will still be angry, knowing His wrath still to come.

He hasn't plagued and fought them yet.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order.
True. The government over all nations, shall then be only in the hands of the glorified Lord, which will begin on this earth, and continue with the new earth.


The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!

This teaches us that time ceases to exist at the return of Christ.
The mortal soul natural theologians also say such words of 'no more shall be', means that the soul no longer exists with the death of the body, because the soul is only flesh and blood.

You make the same mistake, by treating the spiritual things as natural only.

The mystery of the revelation of Christ, hidden since the foundation of the world, and is now being revealed to His church, and will be finished at His return, is not about this earth ending, but all about fulfilling all prophecies of Himself and saints on this earth.

What shall no longer be, is anymore time of delaying His coming.

Time no more existing is false (even as souls no more existing), since time continues for the nations on the new earth.


Genesis 1:14-18 makes it clear that God has furnished mankind with the sun, moon and stars to give light and heat and also to gauge time. But there will also be a time in history where night and day will terminate. The season will no longer be needed. This correlates with the life-span of this current earth. Scripture teaches that these will not last forever. Genesis 8:22 tells us, as long as this corrupt earth (that is now fallen) exists we will have the varying time, seasons and night and day. We learn: “While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.”
True, and so there will also be time and seasons, and sun and moon, and sickness and healing for the nations on the the new earth.

There will however be no more sea at all.


Job 26:10 tells us: “He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Job prophesies of this earth, and you make it the new earth, to fit your doctrine of 'no time existing'.

The time of nations on the new earth, will come to pass with the new heaven and earth.



Without the sun and moon we do not have natural time. When Jesus comes these are rendered unnecessary and redundant. That is because God is the eternal light that will light eternity. We find support for this in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.

Revelation 21:23 records: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.”

Revelation 22:5 testifies: And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”
Scripture says there will be no need for the sun and moon to shine in that one City of God on the new earth.

You change it, to say there will be no sun nor moon, shining over any of the new earth.




When Jesus comes these are rendered unnecessary and redundant. That is because God is the eternal light that will light eternity. We find support for this in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Lamb is the Light of New Jerusalem. There will be no need of the sun and moon shining in it.

The Lamb will be the temple and light in New Jerusalem, not the temple and light over the whole new earth.




This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing.
And so, you add at His appearing again on this earth, to change the context of New Jerusalem coming down on the new earth.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We meet in the air of this world, and we will ever be with Him afterward, not just in this air.



This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”
His second appearing on this earth, will be with clouds and armies in the air, to destroying them gathered for war on the earth.

Not with New Jerusalem on the new earth.


This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20.
True. After the old earth and heaven flee from His face, and all the dead are judged by their works, then the new heaven and earth will be created by God.

Also, God will keep His promise to Abraham, and will give him the land that he walked on.
 

WPM

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God will keep His promise to Abraham, and will give him the land that he walked on.

Until you address this simple fact of Scripture, all your teaching is proven suspect at best.


He gives the little book to John, and tells him he must prophesy more.

This is not His second coming.



I never have conceded any such thing. You teach it, and I don't.

The kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of the Lord, to rule over with a rod of iron.

And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


And while the saints rejoice, the rebellious nations will still be angry, knowing His wrath still to come.

He hasn't plagued and fought them yet.


True. The government over all nations, shall then be only in the hands of the glorified Lord, which will begin on this earth, and continue with the new earth.



The mortal soul natural theologians also say such words of 'no more shall be', means that the soul no longer exists with the death of the body, because the soul is only flesh and blood.

You make the same mistake, by treating the spiritual things as natural only.

The mystery of the revelation of Christ, hidden since the foundation of the world, and is now being revealed to His church, and will be finished at His return, is not about this earth ending, but all about fulfilling all prophecies of Himself and saints on this earth.

What shall no longer be, is anymore time of delaying His coming.

Time no more existing is false (even as souls no more existing), since time continues for the nations on the new earth.



True, and so there will also be time and seasons, and sun and moon, and sickness and healing for the nations on the the new earth.

There will however be no more sea at all.




Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Job prophesies of this earth, and you make it the new earth, to fit your doctrine of 'no time existing'.

The time of nations on the new earth, will come to pass with the new heaven and earth.




Scripture says there will be no need for the sun and moon to shine in that one City of God on the new earth.

You change it, to say there will be no sun nor moon, shining over any of the new earth.





And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Lamb is the Light of New Jerusalem. There will be no need of the sun and moon shining in it.

The Lamb will be the temple and light in New Jerusalem, not the temple and light over the whole new earth.





And so, you add at His appearing again on this earth, to change the context of New Jerusalem coming down on the new earth.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We meet in the air of this world, and we will ever be with Him afterward, not just in this air.




His second appearing on this earth, will be with clouds and armies in the air, to destroying them gathered for war on the earth.

Not with New Jerusalem on the new earth.



True. After the old earth and heaven flee from His face, and all the dead are judged by their works, then the new heaven and earth will be created by God.

Also, God will keep His promise to Abraham, and will give him the land that he walked on.

Where is your evidence in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the NT that Abraham, Israel or us is going back to the old covenant geographical boundaries? All i see is your opinions in your posts. This is a common trait in Premil writings.
 

Truth7t7

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God will keep His promise to Abraham, and will give him the land that he walked on.

Until you address this simple fact of Scripture, all your teaching is proven suspect at best.


He gives the little book to John, and tells him he must prophesy more.

This is not His second coming.



I never have conceded any such thing. You teach it, and I don't.

The kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of the Lord, to rule over with a rod of iron.

And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


And while the saints rejoice, the rebellious nations will still be angry, knowing His wrath still to come.

He hasn't plagued and fought them yet.


True. The government over all nations, shall then be only in the hands of the glorified Lord, which will begin on this earth, and continue with the new earth.



The mortal soul natural theologians also say such words of 'no more shall be', means that the soul no longer exists with the death of the body, because the soul is only flesh and blood.

You make the same mistake, by treating the spiritual things as natural only.

The mystery of the revelation of Christ, hidden since the foundation of the world, and is now being revealed to His church, and will be finished at His return, is not about this earth ending, but all about fulfilling all prophecies of Himself and saints on this earth.

What shall no longer be, is anymore time of delaying His coming.

Time no more existing is false (even as souls no more existing), since time continues for the nations on the new earth.



True, and so there will also be time and seasons, and sun and moon, and sickness and healing for the nations on the the new earth.

There will however be no more sea at all.




Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Job prophesies of this earth, and you make it the new earth, to fit your doctrine of 'no time existing'.

The time of nations on the new earth, will come to pass with the new heaven and earth.




Scripture says there will be no need for the sun and moon to shine in that one City of God on the new earth.

You change it, to say there will be no sun nor moon, shining over any of the new earth.





And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Lamb is the Light of New Jerusalem. There will be no need of the sun and moon shining in it.

The Lamb will be the temple and light in New Jerusalem, not the temple and light over the whole new earth.





And so, you add at His appearing again on this earth, to change the context of New Jerusalem coming down on the new earth.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We meet in the air of this world, and we will ever be with Him afterward, not just in this air.




His second appearing on this earth, will be with clouds and armies in the air, to destroying them gathered for war on the earth.

Not with New Jerusalem on the new earth.



True. After the old earth and heaven flee from His face, and all the dead are judged by their works, then the new heaven and earth will be created by God.

Also, God will keep His promise to Abraham, and will give him the land that he walked on.
All promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Your claim of a future promise of land to a national ethnic people upon this earth "Jews" is "laughable" your Zionism is on full display

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Kingdom of God was taken from Israel long ago, and given to another nation of peculiar people

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 
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robert derrick

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The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

So long as there is creation of heaven and earth and created creatures, there is time.

Once day can be as a thousand years, and a thousand years as day one, but there is still one day and a thousand years.

It takes time for the nations to enter through the gates of the city.
 

robert derrick

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Where is your evidence in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the NT that Abraham, Israel or us is going back to the old covenant geographical boundaries? All i see is your opinions in your posts. This is a common trait in Premil writings.
Still no answer. The argument is not about such things, but is about simple Scripture that must be fulfilled, for God to keep His promise made to a specific man on earth:

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

I say, God will give the land on this earth that man walked. God will keep His promise to do so.

So long as you refuse to address this, then all your arguments are proven suspect.

Likewise, the prophecy of Job must be fulfilled, else he is a false prophet:

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The Lord will stand upon this earth, and Job will see Him, and Abraham will be given the land promised to him.

Simple. Scripture is either believed or not. And all such Scripture must be accounted for in any interpretation of prophecy and doctrine of God.

If you want to include these Scriptures of truth into your doctrine, then I'd be glad to see it.
 

robert derrick

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All promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Your claim of a future promise of land to a national ethnic people upon this earth "Jews" is "laughable" your Zionism is on full display

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Kingdom of God was taken from Israel long ago, and given to another nation of peculiar people

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
We're not talking about the kingdom of God, nor some ethnic people, but one man the Lord promised to give certain land to.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

I say, God will give the land on this earth that man walked on. God will keep His promise to do so.

You say God will not keep His promise made to that man, and you cover it with pseudo-spirituality.
 

Truth7t7

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It takes time for the nations to enter through the gates of the city.
You now have earthly "Time" in the Eternal New Jerusalem?

Ok Fred we have been here 500 years trying to get into New Jerusalem, why don't you go to Google maps and see if there has been an accident up ahead, Real Big Smiles!
 
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WPM

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In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

So long as there is creation of heaven and earth and created creatures, there is time.

Once day can be as a thousand years, and a thousand years as day one, but there is still one day and a thousand years.

It takes time for the nations to enter through the gates of the city.

I gave you the evidence. Time terminates at the last trumpet. Stop fighting with the text. You are fighting with that in order to sustain your error.

Chronos is a duration of time. It is a measurable period in between two particular events. The King James Version New Testament Greek Lexicon is based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary. It succinctly defines chronos as: time either long or short. Time is the realm of seconds, minutes, days and years. It refers to the space we inhabit. Eternity is not governed by a calendar or a watch.

There is no such thing as "time" (seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and years) in eternity.
 
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WPM

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Still no answer. The argument is not about such things, but is about simple Scripture that must be fulfilled, for God to keep His promise made to a specific man on earth:

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

I say, God will give the land on this earth that man walked. God will keep His promise to do so.

So long as you refuse to address this, then all your arguments are proven suspect.

Likewise, the prophecy of Job must be fulfilled, else he is a false prophet:

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The Lord will stand upon this earth, and Job will see Him, and Abraham will be given the land promised to him.

Simple. Scripture is either believed or not. And all such Scripture must be accounted for in any interpretation of prophecy and doctrine of God.

If you want to include these Scriptures of truth into your doctrine, then I'd be glad to see it.

Why can Premils not quote the texts they are presenting?
 

WPM

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We're not talking about the kingdom of God, nor some ethnic people, but one man the Lord promised to give certain land to.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.


I say, God will give the land on this earth that man walked on. God will keep His promise to do so.

You say God will not keep His promise made to that man, and you cover it with pseudo-spirituality.

Genesis 13:14-15 tells us: “And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever (`ad `owlam).”

Probably, the most important issue that needs to be addressed in this whole discussion, in order to conclusively understand this matter, is the meaning of the phrase “for ever.”

Genesis 13:14-15; 15:18; and 17:7-8 are probably the most commonly presented texts supporting the idea that natural Israel has been promised eternal possession of the physical geographical land of Israel. From a plain reading of these texts in English, that would seem to be a fair construal. But to be absolutely certain we must examine the meaning of the ancient pledge given by God in the original Hebrew in order to grasp the full force of the promises. We need to ascertain whether “for ever” or “everlasting” is the right or most suitable English translations of the Hebrew word `owlam (Strong’s 5769), which comes up 438 in the Old Testament.

We should establish at the beginning of this important examination that the English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable.

D. Brent Sandy explains in Plowshares & Pruning Hooks: Rethinking the Language of Biblical Prophecy and Apocalyptic, “forever can designate something that is true and lasts indefinitely into the future, without interruption and without end.”

But was this exactly what God was promising Abraham in regard to the land of Canaan in Genesis 13:15? Is this literally what the Hebrew word means? Taking the English KJV translation at face value you might imagine this to mean that Abraham’s seed would possess the land of Canaan eternally (namely without end).

We know Scripture never contradicts Scripture. God is not taken by surprise. Before God created Abraham, Israel or gave one promise He knew Israel would disobey. He knew they would be exiled from the land.

Consequently, He never gave Abraham a false promise and then went back on His word when man failed. It is manifest that there has been no unending possession of Palestine. So, we already have strong grounds to question a literal eternal fulfilment.
As you dig deeper, you quickly discover that there are many major weaknesses to this assumption. It is therefore important that we look at each of these in detail.

First, and most importantly, if one is to insist on this word referring to an unbroken uninterrupted unending duration (which is what the English word “for ever” means) then God broke His promise to Abraham’s seed. We would have to conclude that there is a question mark over the veracity of the Word of God. After all, history proves Abraham’s seed has not held its ancient land boundaries without end. Israel has been often removed from the land due to disobedience.

So, what does the word `owlam mean?

Before going there, it is very useful (and sometimes necessary) to examine the root word of any Hebrew or Greek word in order to get a deeper sense of its meaning. In the case of the `owlam it would be helpful to our understanding to consider its origin. It derives from the Hebrew word `alam (Strong’s 5956) which means to veil, hide from sight or conceal.

This gives us the idea of ‘out of sight’.

Strong’s says: `owlam (o-lawm’); or `olam (o-lawm’) means “properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future).”

When referring to time, this word essentially means time out of sight. The sense of the word is basically beyond our view. It can relate to either the distant past or the distant future. Whilst the word does not necessarily mean eternity, it can refer to eternity. As one examines the various usages of this word in Scripture, one quickly grasps the truth of that it mainly refers to distant time.

Here we have concrete proof that this word carries a broader meaning than what many attribute to it. The “vanishing point” of any reality can refer to the past or the future. It can refer to distant reality. Whilst we could identify the word with eternity, no one with any understanding of the use of the word in the Old Testament could with any legitimacy rigidly restrict it to that.
 
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covenantee

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We're not talking about the kingdom of God, nor some ethnic people, but one man the Lord promised to give certain land to.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.


I say, God will give the land on this earth that man walked on. God will keep His promise to do so.

You say God will not keep His promise made to that man, and you cover it with pseudo-spirituality.
You fail to understand the meaning and significance of the fulfillment and transcendence of the OT promises by the New Will and Testament in Christ the Divine Testator and Heir.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are
no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.
 
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robert derrick

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You now have earthly "Time" in the Eternal New Jerusalem?

Ok Fred we have been here 500 years trying to get into New Jerusalem, why don't you go to Google maps and see if there has been an accident up ahead, Real Big Smiles!

Where there are created beings and nations in need of healing, there is time for it.

You're habit of ignoring points made, proves your worthless participation.

Your jokes aren't even funny, because it has nothing to do with anything.
 

robert derrick

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There is no such thing as "time" (seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and years) in eternity.
There is time in the eternal future, else there would be no future.

There is no time in the eternity, that only God dwells in, where no created being can inhabit.

You pretend spiritual understanding with fanciful words only, not with Scriptural truth.

You then think to interpret Scriptural prophecy accordingly.
 

robert derrick

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Why can Premils not quote the texts they are presenting?
At this point, you are showing unreality. I present a Scripture, and you say where is the Scripture.

And why? Because it is Scripture you must ignore.

Unfortunately, you are departing from usefulness in the argument about Millennialism.
 

robert derrick

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Genesis 13:14-15 tells us: “And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever (`ad `owlam).”

Probably, the most important issue that needs to be addressed in this whole discussion, in order to conclusively understand this matter, is the meaning of the phrase “for ever.”
No probability about it. The most important part is the phrase "Shall give thee."

And so, you can't argue with it, that God will give Abraham the land he walked on this earth.

Instead, you divert to arguments about what does "for ever" mean.

But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

We should establish at the beginning of this important examination that the English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable.

And again, let's all dive deep into the Hebrew or Greek, because good ol' English is just not good enough, for the more higher scholarship the most learned, who never pass up a chance to show it.

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

The OT circumcision, sabbath, and law was called an everlasting covenant, and yet it is now old and decayed.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


It was everlasting, so long as the people were faithful, which ended at the cross of Jesus Christ.

And so, Abraham will likewise be given the land promised to him on this earth, so long as this earth is habitable, which will end with fire from God out of heaven.

Scripture always proves itself, without any need whatsoever for the pseudo-science of man's scholarship. That is why the wise of this world despise the plain speech of the Bible.
 

WPM

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You pretend spiritual understanding with fanciful words only, not with Scriptural truth.

You come across as a very bitter and frustrated person. Can you not communicate in a Christian manner? If you have no biblical answers just admit it. Your insults prove you are bereft of biblical support. You cannot even accept the clear teaching of Scripture.
 

robert derrick

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You fail to understand the meaning and significance of the fulfillment and transcendence of the OT promises by the New Will and Testament in Christ the Divine Testator and Heir.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are
no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.
All these words to mask the fact, that God's promise to given the land to Abraham, that he personally walked upon around Mamre, was before and not dependent upon the later covenant the Lord made with him and his seed.

That land is from the Nile to the Euphrates, which Abraham never walked upon himself.

Abraham will be given that land as promised by God. And Job will see his redeemer standing on the earth.

Only if God is a liar, and Job is a false prophet, can the Lord's return be fire out of heaven to scorch the whole earth, unless of course He then gives a smouldering part of it to Abraham.

Not nice.
 

robert derrick

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You come across as a very bitter and frustrated person. Can you not communicate in a Christian manner? If you have no biblical answers just admit it. Your insults prove you are bereft of biblical support. You cannot even accept the clear teaching of Scripture.
And now, the personal accusations.

The pattern is always the same: Give Scripture than cannot be denied. The Scripture is avoided altogether. Continue going back to the Scripture, and not be diverted. The Scripture is finally addressed disingenuously. Conclude the Scripture cannot be denied. Personal accusation from the frustrated and angry against the messenger.

And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man.

All you need to do to redeem yourself, is simply to acknowledge the Scripture, that God will keep His promise to give Abraham the land he walked on, and then allow it to correct and adjust your teaching.

I've been correcteed many times for the better. I only care about the truth of Scripture and the doctrine of Christ.

Whether we do it or not, is another matter that God judges us all by.