As I said many times: I'm not here to argue with people whom just want to "prove" they are right. Such only registers as a bully, not a disciple of Christ. Your consistent bullying (which yes, it is) has only left a terrible taste in my mouth for all SDA. So rather than allowing you to continue to give such a horrible impression for your entire denomination, I'm going to place you on "ignore".
Another question for mormons.
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Easy my friend... I was really sorry to see you post something like this.
Sometimes agreeing to disagree may be the best answer for someone who simply does not and perhaps cannot retain all of doctrines and scriptures in their mind. Who's judgment call is that? Should we submit to another man's judgement with regard to our own walk with God? For some people is not simply saying, I believe in God and His Son and what they have done for me, adequate?
Probably some people avoid the SDA because they often exhibit, apparently, an in depth knowledge based on study that many people cannot equal and the ideas cause them to avoid more than necessary contact. What is necessary? God knows!
I remember when @ReChoired first came on this forum and I had a bit of a conversation him. I could not and would not try to absorb all the stuff he wrote then nor will I even try to even read it all now. If I had the time and energy to do that, why not put more of it into the scriptures themselves or into talking with God? I thought that then and still think so. When I saw what he posted here on this thread, I immediately bypassed it. It might be good for reference for someone who already supports the same doctrines, but most people, some of them very much in love with Lord, would not, I believe, touch it with a ten foot pole.
Some people read the Bible regularly and like to come to a place like this forum for fellowship and light discussion rather than to convince someone or to be convinced. They may learn something and they may teach something good because of their Spirit in spite of their inability to speak or write eloquently and logically. God is the one who calls a person to a vocation. Not me and not any other man! To consider the inability of a person as a cop out because he cannot or will not defend as you might defend is not always going to cause that person to lose with God, is it? Do we not live for God by faith rather than by knowledge? Are we not to do the best we can with what God has given us and let Him take up the slack? Is it given to us to dictate to others what they should or should not be doing? The knowledge of a person without charity/love... even if it is biblical knowledge, as I see it, is nothing. Is that not what Paul wrote under inspiration?
So now you can point your finger at me for expressing my different viewpoint on this. So be it! God help us all!
You are sounding a bit like someone else on here who is always attacking @Jane_Doe22 based on her affiliation and the fact that she does not see or agree with your position. If you win the argument does that mean that the loser is wrong and you are right? Or is God right no matter what? Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen... It is not the knowledge we believe we possess as opposed that which someone else does or does not possess. This, of course, is my opinion.
If a person never understands what you understand about the Sabbath, is he then without hope in the eyes of God?
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
We are living in the last days. Days wherein there is already great deception. The world will soon be focusing into two camps. Two churches represented by two women. Babylon the Great and the pure woman of Revelation 12. The vast majority of mankind will be arrayed under the banner of Babylon. A confusion of faith, a confusion of doctrine, a confusion of practice, but all willing to compromise Truth in order to belong. The Sabbath will be the point of contention between the two women. In the final analysis ones chosen authority will mark the difference between Truth and lies... Between Christ and Satan... Between heaven and hell. People may disagree, they may engage in discussion and be convinced toward one side or three other, depending on whose authority they choose to surrender to... The papal power at the head of Babylon, or scripture. But to not want to engage at all at this times in earth's history is to walk away from even wanting to know Truth. Such will have their destiny decided for them... They will lose by default. Sure @ReChoired is insistent. Sure, he presents a lot of material, and sure, I understand people reluctance to read it all, but surely we all need to choose for ourselves what is truth and error, and particularly in these last days make our election sure.
Yes, is about faith. We will not be judged by what we know, correct. But we will be judged by who we know.
Discussions cannot be about "winning an argument". It isn't about that. It's about presenting Truth. The real Christ. Because false Christ's and false Christ beliefs abound everywhere. That was the point of my question to Jane... Who really is the Mormon Christ? She answered that there is no issue. And it's too important am issue for me to agree to disagree. I won't
@Backlit , have I not explained this answer to you several times? Do you think you will understand better if I explain it to you again? Because that's all that could ever happen here. Respectfully, I don't agree with your perspective and don't find it in accordance with scripture. But I'm not going to try to argue you to Christ or have you do that to me.
Well, if you don't want to be argued to Christ, I hope that you will come to Him by some other means.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Good dodge. While you personally talk a good talk, your actual Latter Day Saint beliefs run in contradiction to your talk. The task of many here over the years has been to attempt to reveal to you that difference. That difference is what you deny. You tell us you believe one thing, and that one thing represents LDS doctrine, but we know better. We have read your LDS doctrines. What you represent as LDS doctrine has always been skew-wiff with the official LDS publications. If you personally believe Biblical truth, great. Good for you. But that doesn't make the LDS teachings any more truth filled. You seem to be quite blind to that reality.
If you refuse to understand how egotistical, stupid, and de-humanzing the argument "I know what you believe better than you do!" is, then that's your problem and I can't help you with it. Bye.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Another good dodge. Enables you to avoid explaining why you can claim to be Christian on the forum by "believing in Father God and His Son", supposedly according to the scriptures, but your church in their own publications do not teach according to the scriptures. You consistently fail to recognize that disparity. Jesus is not Lucifer's "spirit" brother. Period. You Jane may not believe such a thing...great...but your church does teach that. Your pompous swelling of chest and doubling down on "I shall not discuss this with you because all you want to do is argue" nonsense doesn't alter one bit your church's heresy.
As I have seen it people are already compromising truth in every camp... I would not want to put Mormons at the bottom of the heap and the SDA or Pentecostals or anyone else at the top... That is definitely above my pay grade!
"For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" Luke 14:11
To whom should we humble ourselves? To whom should we yield? To whom should we submit?
People compromise what truth? Everyone that compromises does so as per what he believes... or? The Truth that we love is still seen by most or all as through a glass darkly. Even if our vision is improved, it does not mean we will do what is right. The compromisers, compromise their own beliefs...
You say that not wanting to engage is to walk away from even wanting to know Truth. That sounds to me like a presumption that you have it and/or that one must engage with you in order to get it. Why should any one assume that you have it better than they do or than someone else does? Of course you believe you have it or you would not argue for and stand up what you stand. But, does not everyone other sincere believer without regard for any affiliation or lack of an affiliation with some church group?
Jesus said these words:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8
But he certainly did not say to ask you or me or some formal minister... ordained or not. Rather he said this:
"And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:" Mark 13:21
Are we not men? Why would or should anyone go to you or to me rather directly to Jesus?
Again you presume that because she is a Mormon, she could not know Christ. Maybe she knows Him better than you think? Are you able to see her heart? You presume that because she differs from you she cannot know God.
I knew the Lord also when I was a Catholic. I loved Him dearly and sincerely but I had never read a Bible... I believed things that now seem wrong to me... but not then. I did not bring myself out of there. God led me out to another place in order to grow, but I believe that if I had died while a sincerely believing teen-aged Catholic boy God would have looked at my heart rather than my affiliation. He would be looking to see what I had done with what I had... not what I had. Would I have lost out with God because of my affiliation with them and my belief in things I cannot now embrace? What kind of a God are we serving anyway? Where is His love and mercy? What does He expect or require from us? Must we be a mental giant in the black and white rules someone has sifted out of the Bible for us to follow and obey...., or should be striving to line ourselves up as best we can and asking God to help us with the two great Commandments Jesus described here?
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:36-40
So then people will study and describe intricate details they often insist are involved in knowing and obeying those two commandments. So then let them do them as well as they are able... Anyone really hungry and thirsty for the right things is then blessed or...?
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled?" Matt 5:6 Blessed and filled!
Can we make anyone hungry? Can we make anyone thirsty? Will knowing all of the right answers from the scriptures make us more than nothing?
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2
You keep have fun telling people what you think they believe and how you know what they believe better than they do. Never mind anyone else's thoughts or study you know, actually living their lives, studying the entirety of their books, attending church, etc. Obviously you know best.
I'm not required for said conversation with yourself, so I'll quit responding and save everyone the time.
Yes, that's what the pharisees did to Stephen and to Jesus also. They placed them on 'ignore':
Zec_7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Act_7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
You, of all people, ought to know who is your friend on this forum, and what it means to actually have such a response liked by both mailmandan, and Christophany.
Bully? Why, simply because you refused to address the subjects brought up from LDS sources (like Sabbath being the 7th day in all their sources), and other topics, and then when you refused I said I would refute what LDS (including yourself) have to say in theological matters? You turn the ear and say I am the bully? I did not shut you out. It was you who shut me out. You are excluding me, I did not exclude you. Even now, I would be willing to discuss any subject you bring up, but you refuse. You are filled with fear at what you might find, in spite of your previous claim to desire to know truth from error.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
If you had true light, you would not fear what you say is darkness.
I have no such fear of LDS darkness, and will expose it in the light for what it is, that others, who are not as fearful as you, might come out of that false system of satan.
LDS, teach and practice, to this very day, Polygamy.
In spite of the truthful material that the FLDS present from LDS sources on this subject, I am not referring to FLDS. I am specifcally referring to standard LDS persons.
All LDS sources which show this can be discussed.
In spite of the truthful material that the FLDS present from LDS sources on this subject, I am not referring to FLDS. I am specifcally referring to standard LDS persons.
All LDS sources which show this can be discussed.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
matthew 23 the self righteousness of the pharisees, the leaven personified before our very eyes, the accuser of the brethren.
Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Preaching that a person ought to repent of error, is love, is charity.
Herein is love:
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Preaching or teaching to a willing and/or hungry and thirsty listener is one thing, but insisting that a person pay attention to what you are presenting is quite another.
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Polygamy, as addressed in brief by the Salt Lake Tribune (a paper of the LDS church, just ask who runs the paper), which shows it is still a public and present topic:
"... The agonized question came from a concerned Latter-day Saint woman considering eternal marriage to a widower: Would she have her own house in the hereafter or would she have to live with her husband and his first wife?
Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency, used the query during last month’s General Conference to set up a speech about trusting in God.
In response to the heavenly hypothetical, the audience in the faith’s giant Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City let out a collective guffaw. That troubled many believing Mormons, especially women, to whom the possibility of eternal polygamy is no laughing matter.
It is the cause of anxiety, nightmares, deathbed promises, and, yes, earnest letters to authorities in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, begging for clarification.
The church has explicitly barred polygamy among its members, excommunicating any who try, for more than a century, but that has hardly ended the debate.
Oaks’ talk as well as the horrific massacre in Mexico of three mothers and six children from a former polygamous colony and the renewed chatter about legalizing plural marriage have triggered new conversations about the church’s past practice of polygamy and revived worries about what it means for today’s Latter-day Saints.
That’s because plural marriage remains very much a part of Mormon doctrine, enshrined in scripture, and practiced, at least through so-called sealings, in its temples. Many members believe polygamy will be reinstituted in the afterlife and even the late Latter-day Saint apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote that the “holy practice” would resume after Jesus Christ’s Second Coming.
Polygamy also exists in the here and now. Divorced or widowed men can be “sealed” (married for eternity in Latter-day Saint temples) to multiple wives, while such women generally can be sealed only to one husband.
(Photo courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) A sealing room in the Rome Italy Temple
If a man gets a divorce, he can be sealed again to another wife without “canceling” the first sealing, while women are required to get that cancellation. That plays into dating issues, wedding plans, gender conflicts.
One elderly gentleman was widowed and sealed twice, and, while in his 70s and considering a third wife, declared he would only court a woman who was already sealed to her first husband. It was a question he posed on all first dates with prospective mates. Because, as the man said at the time, “two wives on the other side are enough.”
Church President Russell M. Nelson and Oaks both married a second woman in the temple after their first wives died, so will those women be sharing their men in heaven?
And what about the Western world’s most famous polygamist, Brigham Young, who was sealed to more than 50 women?
...
Acclaimed playwright, poet and author Carol Lynn Pearson ...
“Polygamy delayed is still polygamy,” Pearson reasons in her 2016 book, “The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy: Haunting the Hearts and Heaven of Mormon Women and Men."
It is “not an artifact in a museum. It is alive and unwell, a ghost that has a dark life of its own,” writes Pearson, who lives in Northern California, “hiding in the recesses of the Mormon psyche, inflicting profound pain and fear, assuring women that we are still objects, damaging or destroying marriages, bringing chaos to family relationships."
...
In Section 132, church founder Joseph Smith uses the biblical story of Abraham and his two wives, Sarah and Hagar, to defend polygamy.
“Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation [for having plural wives]?” verse 35 asks. "Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." ..." - Polygamy lives on in LDS temples, spurring agony, angst and a key question: Who will be married to whom in heaven?
The question then becomes, Where did God, in scripture, command Abraham to have more than one wife?Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency, used the query during last month’s General Conference to set up a speech about trusting in God.
In response to the heavenly hypothetical, the audience in the faith’s giant Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City let out a collective guffaw. That troubled many believing Mormons, especially women, to whom the possibility of eternal polygamy is no laughing matter.
It is the cause of anxiety, nightmares, deathbed promises, and, yes, earnest letters to authorities in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, begging for clarification.
The church has explicitly barred polygamy among its members, excommunicating any who try, for more than a century, but that has hardly ended the debate.
Oaks’ talk as well as the horrific massacre in Mexico of three mothers and six children from a former polygamous colony and the renewed chatter about legalizing plural marriage have triggered new conversations about the church’s past practice of polygamy and revived worries about what it means for today’s Latter-day Saints.
That’s because plural marriage remains very much a part of Mormon doctrine, enshrined in scripture, and practiced, at least through so-called sealings, in its temples. Many members believe polygamy will be reinstituted in the afterlife and even the late Latter-day Saint apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote that the “holy practice” would resume after Jesus Christ’s Second Coming.
Polygamy also exists in the here and now. Divorced or widowed men can be “sealed” (married for eternity in Latter-day Saint temples) to multiple wives, while such women generally can be sealed only to one husband.
(Photo courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) A sealing room in the Rome Italy Temple
If a man gets a divorce, he can be sealed again to another wife without “canceling” the first sealing, while women are required to get that cancellation. That plays into dating issues, wedding plans, gender conflicts.
One elderly gentleman was widowed and sealed twice, and, while in his 70s and considering a third wife, declared he would only court a woman who was already sealed to her first husband. It was a question he posed on all first dates with prospective mates. Because, as the man said at the time, “two wives on the other side are enough.”
Church President Russell M. Nelson and Oaks both married a second woman in the temple after their first wives died, so will those women be sharing their men in heaven?
And what about the Western world’s most famous polygamist, Brigham Young, who was sealed to more than 50 women?
...
Acclaimed playwright, poet and author Carol Lynn Pearson ...
“Polygamy delayed is still polygamy,” Pearson reasons in her 2016 book, “The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy: Haunting the Hearts and Heaven of Mormon Women and Men."
It is “not an artifact in a museum. It is alive and unwell, a ghost that has a dark life of its own,” writes Pearson, who lives in Northern California, “hiding in the recesses of the Mormon psyche, inflicting profound pain and fear, assuring women that we are still objects, damaging or destroying marriages, bringing chaos to family relationships."
...
In Section 132, church founder Joseph Smith uses the biblical story of Abraham and his two wives, Sarah and Hagar, to defend polygamy.
“Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation [for having plural wives]?” verse 35 asks. "Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." ..." - Polygamy lives on in LDS temples, spurring agony, angst and a key question: Who will be married to whom in heaven?
So 'insisting' (your word) is being a bully? I thought with age came wisdom. Jesus preaching to the resisting Pharisees was bullying them ... right?
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
And you are not Jesus and know what is in another mans heart. He is God and you are not. Hence you have no authority over another person.
end of discussion.
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