Another question for mormons.
- Thread starter justbyfaith
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
-
Again actual LDS Christian sources:
Article of Faith 1:1 "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." (Articles of Faith 1)
See how they have to deny their own material, and put forth lies, and couch their theology in terms sounding similar, when the very underlying definitions are not the same - at all?
Here is what President Howard W Hunter stated:
"... We have a Father in Heaven, who sent His Firstborn of spirit children, His Only Begotten in the flesh, ..."
"... we can return to live with our Father in Heaven once again, ..." - President Howard W. Hunter, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve,
(Adapted from an April 1983 general conference address. See Ensign, May 1983, pages 15–16.) - Christ’s Resurrection
"... we can return to live with our Father in Heaven once again, ..." - President Howard W. Hunter, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve,
(Adapted from an April 1983 general conference address. See Ensign, May 1983, pages 15–16.) - Christ’s Resurrection
You see, according to LDS doctrine, the Son of the Father is not the "Only Begotten" from eternity, but only 'became' the "Only Begotten" when he was sired through the physical act of sexual union of the "Father" and his spirit daughter in the flesh, Mary. Otherwise, the Son of God (aka 'Jesus') is merely a 'firstborn' of untold amounts of other children that the "Father" had in Heaven before.
The second portion teaches that we began in Heaven with the Father, before coming to earth.
Now, they (LDS) teach that the "Father" is eternal, but they do not mean this in the way scripture does. For they also teach that every 'spirit' is "eternal" just the same.
"... Did you know that you attended a very big meeting before you were born? It was called the Council in Heaven. All of Heavenly Father’s spirit children were there. Jesus Christ was there, and each one of us was there. Jesus was Heavenly Father’s Firstborn Son in the spirit world. We are also His spirit children. We lived with Heavenly Father and Jesus in heaven before we were born on this earth. ..." - By Sydney S. Reynolds - Sharing Time: I Shouted for Joy!
"... Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, ..." - From the Life of Joseph F. Smith - Chapter 40: The Father and the Son
"... There was another spirit person there who wanted to take away our agency and force us all to follow him. That was Lucifer, or Satan. He didn’t want to follow Heavenly Father’s plan—he wanted his own plan. Heavenly Father said, “I will send the first.” (See Abr. 3:24–27.) ..."
Surah 2:29-38 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Surah 7:11-27 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Surah 15:26-44 (al-Hilalai-Khan translation)
Surah 17:60-64 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Surah 18:50 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Surah 20:115-123 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Yusuf-Ali translation notes [50] on Surah 2:35
Surah 7:11-27 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Surah 15:26-44 (al-Hilalai-Khan translation)
Surah 17:60-64 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Surah 18:50 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Yusuf-Ali translation notes [49] on Surah 2:34
Surah 20:115-123 (al-Hilali-Khan translation)
Last edited:
I do not define anything that is "my version", let alone "trinity". I state what scripture states, see 1 John 5:7-8 KJB:
There are Three Persons/Beings of the family JEHOVAH Elohiym.
[1] The eternal (Psalms 90:2) Father JEHOVAH (the Ancient of Days; Daniel 7:9,13,22),
[2] the eternal (John 1:1-3; 1 John 1:1-3; Proverbs 8:22-36; Micah 5:2) Son, Jesus JEHOVAH (the Son of God/Son of Man, the Word), and
[3] the eternal (Hebrews 9:14) Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (aka JEHOVAH's Spirit).
The Father and the Son share the same nature (Hebrews 1:1-3; Zechariah 13:7), but the nature of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is a mystery never addressed in scripture. The Father holds a position above that of the Son in the Throne (Genesis 41:40), which they both sit in (Revelation 3:21, 22:3), but it is the Son which sits at the right hand of the Father, and in relationship (as Father to Son; Exodus 20:12).[2] the eternal (John 1:1-3; 1 John 1:1-3; Proverbs 8:22-36; Micah 5:2) Son, Jesus JEHOVAH (the Son of God/Son of Man, the Word), and
[3] the eternal (Hebrews 9:14) Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (aka JEHOVAH's Spirit).
The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe (and thus neither the Son).
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.
As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).
See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).
The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).
The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).
So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)
Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).
Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Is the Son now a spirit like the Father or is He still a man with a human body ?
LDS doctrine also immortalizes the 'elements' (which by the way is Greek Pagan Platonic Philosophy):
"... He [God the eternal Father; LDS] certainly did not create, in the sense of bringing into primal existence, the ultimate elements of the materials of which the earth consists, for “the elements are eternal” (Doc. & Cov. 93:33).11 ..." - Chapter 40: The Father and the Son
"... [Jesus Christ] is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.16 ..." - Chapter 40: The Father and the Son
"... Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the Gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of Godhood [see D&C 76:58; 132:17, 20, 37]. …" - Chapter 40: The Father and the Son
"... [Jesus Christ] is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.16 ..." - Chapter 40: The Father and the Son
"... Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the Gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of Godhood [see D&C 76:58; 132:17, 20, 37]. …" - Chapter 40: The Father and the Son
Last edited:
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Jesus (Deity/God, manifest in the flesh; 1 Timothy 3:16; Philippians 2:5-11) was resurrected with a glorified body of mankind (man), having both eternal immortal flesh and bones, that He actually ascended to the 3rd Heaven with:
Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
He still has the reminder of the wounds, as scars, that he will bear for all eternity:
Acts of the Apostles 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Habakkuk 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Habakkuk 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
The LDS person has to deny their own theology, and couch their terms in syncretistic fashion!
"... The Father and the Son are resurrected beings. ..." - By President Henry B. Eyring; Second Counselor in the First Presidency - His Spirit to Be with You
You have quoted some scriptures that are seemingly saying something to you, but I guess they are saying something different to me. Without having an idea of where your finger was pointing before I guess the conclusions could be applied to almost to anyone. God inspired the writings but where should the understanding be...unless of course we already had a preconceived one? As @bbyrd009 might say, "Death more abundantly!"
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You speak of God standards for truth but criticise those here who uncover church policy that advocates for sin?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That's all well and good speaking about what you believe the Father to be now, but what was He before???
That's the problem you have at the moment. You are interpreting. Whereas on my side, it is God who interprets His own words (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; etc), and I interpret nothing for that would be private interpretation, which is forbidden.
See the wall here - Hidden Eyes and Closed Ears | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts
You can Download it here - https://archive.org/download/amazin... Sermons 04 - Hidden Eyes And Closed Ears.pdf
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
What @ReChoired is also doing is unmasking the truth of serious error regarding the nature of God and man. Good was once a man such as we are? We can also become gods and rule planets and have offspring with numerous wives? This is serious stuff my friend, regardless of how you view the manner in which it is presented. It does need to be presented because Jane is misrepresenting LDS doctrines on this forum.
Why not let the LDS speak also on the subject:
"... there still persists the fallacious doctrine formulated at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 that God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three personages of spirit—three personages in one. ..." - The Fall and Infinite Atonement
Again, the LDS official teaching is that the "eternal" Father (LDS) was once tested as a mortal being of flesh, died (because of sin, which means it is immortal and eternal) and resurrected and progressed and 'gained experience' (like Final Fantasy and Ignatius Loyola's teachings, to 'level up'*) to where He is now:
"... Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies. We would need to leave our physical bodies at death and reunite with them in the Resurrection. Then we would receive immortal bodies like that of our Heavenly Father. If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received. (See D&C 93:30–34.)
Our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 209, 511). We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as He does (see D&C 132:19–20). ..." - Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family
"... “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.” - The First Presidency, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 81; Ensign, Feb. 2002, 30. ..." - Line upon Line: Genesis 1:26–27
"... “All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.” - The First Presidency, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 78; Ensign, Feb. 2002, 29. ..." - Line upon Line: Genesis 1:26–27
asterisk * (Ignatius Loyola; Jesuit)
Our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 209, 511). We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as He does (see D&C 132:19–20). ..." - Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family
"... “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.” - The First Presidency, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 81; Ensign, Feb. 2002, 30. ..." - Line upon Line: Genesis 1:26–27
"... “All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.” - The First Presidency, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 78; Ensign, Feb. 2002, 29. ..." - Line upon Line: Genesis 1:26–27
asterisk * (Ignatius Loyola; Jesuit)
"... In practice his custom was to train the will so thoroughly that his men might be able after a short time to "level up" others (a most difficult thing), even though they lived outside the cloisters, with no external support for their discipline. The wonderful achievements of staying and rolling back the tide of the Reformation, in so far as it was due to the Jesuits, was the result of increased will-power given to previously irresolute Catholics by the Ignatian methods. ..." - http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedi...ocuments/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060422_gesuiti.html
Roman Catholic Catechism PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH; SECTION TWO I. THE CREEDS; CHAPTER TWO I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD; Article 3 "HE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND WAS BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY"; Paragraph 1. THE SON OF GOD BECAME MAN, section 460:
Thus see also Irenaeus, Against Heresis, Book 3, Chapter 19, Part 1:
Thus see also Athanasius, On the Incarnation, Section 54, Part 3:
Roman Catholic Catechism PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH; SECTION TWO I. THE CREEDS; CHAPTER TWO I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD; Article 3 "HE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND WAS BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY"; Paragraph 1. THE SON OF GOD BECAME MAN, section 460:
"460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
Thus see also Irenaeus, Against Heresis, Book 3, Chapter 19, Part 1:
"... For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. ..." - CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.19 (St. Irenaeus)
Thus see also Athanasius, On the Incarnation, Section 54, Part 3:
"3. For He was made man that we might be made God ..." ["Factus est Deus homo ut homo fieret Deus"] - CHURCH FATHERS: On the Incarnation of the Word (Athanasius)
Last edited:
According to LDS sources, Adam (who existed before this earth was put together, for remember the matter was eternal), helped Elohim (LDS Father) and JEHOVAH (LDS Jesus) in so doing, and maybe along with Joseph Smith (Joseph Smith is possibly one of the Creators!)!
"... It is in the temple account of the Creation that we learn that Adam is Michael, who helped Jehovah in the Creation. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong … conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth was formed?” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:75.) ..." - Four Accounts of the Creation
"... Many Christian writers have defined the Creation as creation from nothing. But the book of Abraham clarifies that God “organized” the worlds out of unorganized matter. To those who were with him, God said, “We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell.” (Abr. 3:24.) And since all life came from the earth’s elements, all things came from existing material. ..." - Four Accounts of the Creation
"... Many Christian writers have defined the Creation as creation from nothing. But the book of Abraham clarifies that God “organized” the worlds out of unorganized matter. To those who were with him, God said, “We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell.” (Abr. 3:24.) And since all life came from the earth’s elements, all things came from existing material. ..." - Four Accounts of the Creation
LDS source, Brigham Young:
"... God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29). ..." - The Father and the Son
"...A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (D&C 93:23). ..." - The Father and the Son
"... (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. ... Intelligence was not created or made, D&C 93:29." - Intelligence, Intelligences
"... The great architect [LDS Elohim, Father], manager and superintendent, controller and dictator [absolute ruler] who guides this work is out of sight to our natural eyes. He lives on another world; he is in another state of existence; he has passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality, for he has passed through the whole of it, and has received his crown and exaltation and holds the keys and the power of this Kingdom; ... Instead of inquiring after the origin of Gods ..." - Chapter 4: Knowing and Honoring the Godhead
LDS Source on the eternal "intelligences", which makes them as eternal as LDS Elohim is:
"... God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29). ..." - The Father and the Son
"...A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (D&C 93:23). ..." - The Father and the Son
"... (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. ... Intelligence was not created or made, D&C 93:29." - Intelligence, Intelligences
LDS sources teach that Adam and Eve's fall is what allowed them to have children:
LDS sources on the other worlds:
"...“The Fall provided a way for the family to grow. Adam and Eve were family leaders who chose to have a mortal experience. The Fall made it possible for them to have sons and daughters. ..." - (Julie B. Beck, “Teaching the Doctrine of the Family,” Ensign, Mar. 2011, 12) - Lesson 4: Jehovah Created the Earth
LDS sources on the other worlds:
"... Jesus was also chosen and sent by the Father to organize and create this earth, our solar system, our galaxy, even worlds without number. ..." - Our Message to the World
The LDS hide this little fact, and leave it "open-ended" (meaning afraid to touch the contradictory subject), in that Jesus is not the Saviour of the worlds not made by Elohim (LDS Father) or Himself (LDS JEHOVAH), but were made by other "Gods" before them in the eternal recesses and ages beforehand:
"... the first born of every creature, holding the birthright over every creation He has made, and holding the keys of salvation over millions of worlds like this;..."
So while LDS speak about Jesus creating all the worlds on high (Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?), it only refers to those "without number", or "infinite" (as man can count, see context) that Elohim (LDS Father) and Himself (LDS JEHOVAH) created together.
Last edited:
Similar threads
