Another question for mormons.

[amadeus]

So 'insisting' (your word) is being a bully? I thought with age came wisdom. Jesus preaching to the resisting Pharisees was bullying them ... right?

Did I call you a 'bully'? I believe not directly, but perhaps I did somehow include that meaning in there. If I did, but should not have, I do apologize. Communication is always a problem between still flawed people, isn't it? I am certainly still flawed, but I believe that God is still at work in me. Keep me in prayer!

 

[Brakelite]

Polygamy, as addressed in brief by the Salt Lake Tribune (a paper of the LDS church, just ask who runs the paper), which shows it is still a public and present topic:

"... The agonized question came from a concerned Latter-day Saint woman considering eternal marriage to a widower: Would she have her own house in the hereafter or would she have to live with her husband and his first wife?

Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the LDS Church’s governing First Presidency, used the query during last month’s General Conference to set up a speech about trusting in God.

In response to the heavenly hypothetical, the audience in the faith’s giant Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City let out a collective guffaw. That troubled many believing Mormons, especially women, to whom the possibility of eternal polygamy is no laughing matter.

It is the cause of anxiety, nightmares, deathbed promises, and, yes, earnest letters to authorities in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, begging for clarification.

The church has explicitly barred polygamy among its members, excommunicating any who try, for more than a century, but that has hardly ended the debate.

Oaks’ talk as well as the horrific massacre in Mexico of three mothers and six children from a former polygamous colony and the renewed chatter about legalizing plural marriage have triggered new conversations about the church’s past practice of polygamy and revived worries about what it means for today’s Latter-day Saints.

That’s because plural marriage remains very much a part of Mormon doctrine, enshrined in scripture, and practiced, at least through so-called sealings, in its temples. Many members believe polygamy will be reinstituted in the afterlife and even the late Latter-day Saint apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote that the “holy practice” would resume after Jesus Christ’s Second Coming.

Polygamy also exists in the here and now. Divorced or widowed men can be “sealed” (married for eternity in Latter-day Saint temples) to multiple wives, while such women generally can be sealed only to one husband.

(Photo courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) A sealing room in the Rome Italy Temple

If a man gets a divorce, he can be sealed again to another wife without “canceling” the first sealing, while women are required to get that cancellation. That plays into dating issues, wedding plans, gender conflicts.

One elderly gentleman was widowed and sealed twice, and, while in his 70s and considering a third wife, declared he would only court a woman who was already sealed to her first husband. It was a question he posed on all first dates with prospective mates. Because, as the man said at the time, “two wives on the other side are enough.”

Church President Russell M. Nelson and Oaks both married a second woman in the temple after their first wives died, so will those women be sharing their men in heaven?

And what about the Western world’s most famous polygamist, Brigham Young, who was sealed to more than 50 women?

...

Acclaimed playwright, poet and author Carol Lynn Pearson ...

“Polygamy delayed is still polygamy,” Pearson reasons in her 2016 book, “The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy: Haunting the Hearts and Heaven of Mormon Women and Men."

It is “not an artifact in a museum. It is alive and unwell, a ghost that has a dark life of its own,” writes Pearson, who lives in Northern California, “hiding in the recesses of the Mormon psyche, inflicting profound pain and fear, assuring women that we are still objects, damaging or destroying marriages, bringing chaos to family relationships."

...

In Section 132, church founder Joseph Smith uses the biblical story of Abraham and his two wives, Sarah and Hagar, to defend polygamy.


“Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation [for having plural wives]?” verse 35 asks. "Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it." ..." - Polygamy lives on in LDS temples, spurring agony, angst and a key question: Who will be married to whom in heaven?
​

The question then becomes, Where did God, in scripture, command Abraham to have more than one wife?

My wife's cousin is Mormon, her husband an elder in the local temple. He and I were talking about polygamy and he admitted that if it were legal, he would marry a second wife. I asked him what his current wife thought about that. His reply was, it's not up to her, she'd just have to deal with it.
By the way, they are no longer together, but he did get his wish...a second wife.

 

[ReChoired]

Preaching or teaching to a willing and/or hungry and thirsty listener is one thing, but insisting that a person's pay attention what you are presenting is quite another.

This is an open forum, not an LDS congregation. Said person, can choose to leave, or ignore what is here discussed openly, and in the light of day. If they choose to ignore that, refuse it, they cannot call it bullying, since they themselves choose to be here, and engage with others not of their theology (and as such, heresies). If they do not like being approached again and again on a subject, they ought go back to their shadows and skulk there with others who will simply 'yes, ma'am' or 'yes sir', them. Imagine, walking into a public building, or a public space (like Speaker's corner in England), and then refusing to engage with those they chose to engage with in the first place, and then ignore them, and refuse them, and then hang around, and then say that anyone who engages them on a topic they refuse is bullying them. What utter rubbish.

 

[ReChoired]

My wife's cousin is Mormon, her husband an elder in the local temple. He and I were talking about polygamy and he admitted that if it were legal, he would marry a second wife. I asked him what his current wife thought about that. His reply was, it's not up to her, she'd just have to deal with it.
By the way, they are no longer together, but he did get his wish...a second wife.

Yes, I know. Many are like that, and many secretly like that and wouldn't tell their wife currently, but in their heart desire it. Now that is not to say all might have such a mindset, but theologically, they do already have it.

 

[ReChoired]

Did I call you a 'bully'? I believe not directly, but perhaps I did somehow include that meaning in there. If I did, but should not have, I do apologize. Communication is always a problem between still flawed people, isn't it? I am certainly still flawed, but I believe that God is still at work in me. Keep me in prayer!

I find that in the many years of doing this now, it is not so much the communication (words, definitions, examples, arguments, etc), as the willingness or unwillingness to accept truth when it confronts them in ever so loving a manner.

Jesus was the most loving person in the world. He confronted error where ever he found it, even directly. If you need examples of that, I can show you. It wasn't the communication that got in the way, it was man's sinful heart, which couldn't abide truth in any form, no matter how soft and genteel it was spoken. If also, one thinks that Jesus was always soft of voice, they need to consider the Temple scenes and a few others.

 

[Brakelite]

I find that in the many years of doing this now, it is not so much the communication (words, definitions, examples, arguments, etc), as the willingness or unwillingness to accept truth when it confronts them in ever so loving a manner.

Jesus was the most loving person in the world. He confronted error where ever he found it, even directly. If you need examples of that, I can show you. It wasn't the communication that got in the way, it was man's sinful heart, which couldn't abide truth in any form, no matter how soft and genteel it was spoken. If also, one thinks that Jesus was always soft of voice, they need to consider the Temple scenes and a few others.

Even if someone came back from the dead...

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I just discovered this thread......only read the first page or so....
Doesn’t Mormonism teach that Jesus was not God in the Flesh , but that He was merely an Angel and Satan’s “ Brother” or some such crap ? It’s a False, “ Accursed” Gospel .....almost as Devil- Inspired as Islam..... neither religion is worth looking at for more than 2 seconds....

 

[ReChoired]

I just discovered this thread......only read the first page or so....
Doesn’t Mormonism teach that Jesus was not God in the Flesh , but that He was merely an Angel and Satan’s “ Brother” or some such crap ? It’s a False, “ Accursed” Gospel .....almost as Devil- Inspired as Islam..... neither religion is worth looking at for more than 2 seconds....

LDS Articles of Faith:

James Talmage ( James E. Talmage - Wikipedia ) wrote that Christ had a "unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal or resurrected and glorified Father." - Articles of Faith, p. 473 - The Father and the Son

"... The Eternal Father, therefore, is a Being who has had experiences incident to the mortal state. He is a resurrected Being; He conquered death ..." - Essential James E. Talmage – 22 |

"... that God the Eternal Father has passed through experiences analogous to those of our present mortality, and that the Eternal Father is a resurrected Being ..." - Essential James E. Talmage – 22 |

"... and that Father, the Eternal Father, not Jesus Christ, but the Father of Jesus Christ, the Father of His spirit and the Father of His body, was a Man, and has progressed, not by any favor but by the right of conquest over sin, and over unrighteousness, to His present position of priesthood [p.140] ..." - Essential James E. Talmage – 22 |​

"... Our Father Advanced and Progressed Until He Became God. President Joseph Fielding Smith said: 'Our Father in heaven according to the prophet [Joseph Smith], had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each father had a father' (Doctrine of Salvation, 2:47). President Joseph F. Smith taught: "I know that God ... [was once as a] Man was born of woman; Christ the savior was born of woman; and God the father was born of woman." (Church News, 19 Sept. 1936. p.2 )[17]

As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death ... he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children. ..." [18] ..." - Mormons​

"... We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, he was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds. ...? (Mormon "Apostle" Orson Pratt, in the periodical 'The Seer', 1853, p. 132 - Mormons​

The eternal God, JEHOVAH, the Father, died? was "resurrected and glorified" at some point before physically siring 'Jesus' with an earth woman (Mary), his own 'spirit daughter' (who was the spirit Mother???, what was her name, and what is the spirit Mother of Jesus??? if a differing spirit Mother) who was in human flesh???

Where is that in the Bible (KJB)???

The LDS doctrine immortalizes sin and death for that matter (as being eternal and without end).

 

[amadeus]

This is an open forum, not an LDS congregation. Said person, can choose to leave, or ignore what is here discussed openly, and in the light of day. If they choose to ignore that, refuse it, they cannot call it bullying, since they themselves choose to be here, and engage with others not of their theology (and as such, heresies). If they do not like being approached again and again on a subject, they ought go back to their shadows and skulk there with others who will simply 'yes, ma'am' or 'yes sir', them. Imagine, walking into a public building, or a public space (like Speaker's corner in England), and then refusing to engage with those they chose to engage with in the first place, and then ignore them, and refuse them, and then hang around, and then say that anyone who engages them on a topic they refuse is bullying them. What utter rubbish.

Are you speaking as a carnal man or as a humbly sincere follower of Jesus? Hopefully the latter!

I guess then we are all here open to attack as Jesus was open to attack... and he certainly was attacked. None of us here are Jesus although some certainly are striving to be like him. What was Jesus like? Some have decided it seems that they know, but what do they know? What do I know? On the last question, not much..., but I do want to know more!

I gather that you are an intelligent man and well versed in the scriptures, but what is that by itself? Saul of Tarsis was an intelligent and well educated man in the scriptures when he was persecuting the followers of Christ. I am not saying you are like that, but you have not given me reason why I should believe you have better motives than Saul had.

@Backlit disappointed me by his words on this thread. You have not disappointed me because you for the most part never showed yourself at all.

I've disappointed a whole of people myself over the years so that me in turn being disappointed may be a fair return. The church group I was with loosely for years [ended in late 2018] did a better job than many in producing students/servants with open minds and hearts, but in the end they established that they too were very human indeed when they deposed my pastor and I was part of the necessary collateral damage... meaning I am also gone from them.

Backlit's often 'good' attitude here led me to check out the SDA more closely in spite of bad experiences with a couple of others from that group. Just before this Covid 19 thing caused so many changes it was due to Backlit that I visited a small SDA assembly twice in 2020. Enter Covid 19 and I visited them no more. I did not single them out. I stopped all of my visitations to churches considering that I was not and am not alone in the world of men. My wife suffers from a severely compromised immune system and combined with her age it makes her especially vulnerable.

Nonetheless I have considered [and I am still considering] how God brought me out of Catholicism 50 years ago, and 30 years ago He brought me out of Oneness Jesus Only, and 2 years ago He brought me out of that most recent affiliation. Could it be that God did not want me to build a connection with the SDA?

Jesus took people one by one and treated them according to what he encountered. Not every Pharisee was lost without hope as we see in the transformation of Saul/Paul. Consider also the case of Judah in his initial treatment of his brother, Joseph, versus his later humility.

Now are we discussing the LDS as a group or @Jane_Doe22 as a person? Why is this last thing a good thing? You believe, I guess, you have the right, or even the need, to tear down someone else's tower because they are, as you see it, poorly constructed or even on the wrong foundation. Who is building a tower of Babel here, you, or @Jane_Doe22 or neither of you? Who is building the kingdom of God? Who is the wise master builder building on the right foundation?

One with all of the scriptural answers or one with the right Spirit or perhaps someone else?

How much did the very well educated Saul of Tarsis know about the Messiah... before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus? Has anyone without all of that Bible education ever met Jesus and come to know him?

How light is our Light walking the dark streets of hell? Where are the sun and moon and stars when we think we need them?

I guess you can see now that I mostly have questions. Perhaps you are able to clearly distinguish between the "good" which is God the rubbish of men. My vision remains mostly, I guess, as through darkened glass, but what do I know?

 

[ChristisGod]

This is an open forum, not an LDS congregation. Said person, can choose to leave, or ignore what is here discussed openly, and in the light of day. If they choose to ignore that, refuse it, they cannot call it bullying, since they themselves choose to be here, and engage with others not of their theology (and as such, heresies). If they do not like being approached again and again on a subject, they ought go back to their shadows and skulk there with others who will simply 'yes, ma'am' or 'yes sir', them. Imagine, walking into a public building, or a public space (like Speaker's corner in England), and then refusing to engage with those they chose to engage with in the first place, and then ignore them, and refuse them, and then hang around, and then say that anyone who engages them on a topic they refuse is bullying them. What utter rubbish.

agree your manner of communication is rubbish

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes, I know. Many are like that, and many secretly like that and wouldn't tell their wife currently, but in their heart desire it. Now that is not to say all might have such a mindset, but theologically, they do already have it.

so what ?

how many charismatic/ pentecostal pastors have cheated on their wives ? committed adultery with several women ?

how many WOF pastors have done the same ?

how many protestant pastors ?

how many catholic priests ?

King David was guilty of it

Now I will suppose you will LIE to everyone here and claim you have never once lusted for a woman that was not your wife.

nuff said...........................

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I just discovered this thread......only read the first page or so....
Doesn’t Mormonism teach that Jesus was not God in the Flesh , but that He was merely an Angel and Satan’s “ Brother” or some such crap ? It’s a False, “ Accursed” Gospel .....almost as Devil- Inspired as Islam..... neither religion is worth looking at for more than 2 seconds....

No.

Actual LDS Christian beliefs: Jesus Christ alone is the Son of God ,100% divine, creator and redeemer of the world.

God the Father is the Father of all. Everyone are His sons (and daughters). Which technically makes everyone siblings, though what you do is up to you. There aren’t two people more different than the perfect Son Jesus whom so perfectly carried out the Father’s will, versus Lucifer whom completely rebelled and was cast out.

If you want me to provide scriptural sources here, or address any other quotes, just ask.

 

[ReChoired]

... God the Father is the Father of all. ...

What about the beings on the other worlds? Is "God the Father" (LDS) the Father of them, the Creator of them, or not?

 

[Brakelite]

so what ?

how many charismatic/ pentecostal pastors have cheated on their wives ? committed adultery with several women ?

how many WOF pastors have done the same ?

how many protestant pastors ?

how many catholic priests ?

King David was guilty of it

Now I will suppose you will LIE to everyone here and claim you have never once lusted for a woman that was not your wife.

nuff said...........................

So what? None of those you cited above, as true as they may well be, were church policy.

 

[ChristisGod]

So what? None of those you cited above, as true as they may well be, were church policy.

doesn't matter church policy it matters about sin in the heart and Gods standards for truth.

 

[justbyfaith]

Lucifer was not Jesus' spirit-brother....he was created by Him (John 1:3).

 

[ReChoired]

Are you speaking as a carnal man or as a humbly sincere follower of Jesus? Hopefully the latter! ..

Thus is it written:

Jdg_6:30 Then the men of the city said unto Joash, Bring out thy son, that he may die: because he hath cast down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the grove that was by it.

Eze_13:14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.​

That "wall" is symbolic of the Law of God, which they have replaced with their own mortar (not the stone of God, but man-made mixture), their own law. Their idols (which are many), beginning with Sunday sacredness, is to be torn down by the preaching of the word.

Isa_58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Eze_8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
​

Their lives (eternal lives) are on the line, and if preach smooth things o questioner, their blood is on my garment (but as of now, it is on their own). Revelation 14:6-12.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

doesn't matter church policy it matters about sin in the heart and Gods standards for truth.

Also relevant fact: the "sources" quoted in anti stuff aren't even LDS doctrinal or policy sources, or even used in actual LDS discourse. They just aren't. Example of such fake "sources" are 'Journal of Discourses', 'Mormon Doctrine', 'The Seer', etc. At that's even without taking the important of contextual and theological context!

Here's actual LDS sources for one sub-subject:
God, Eternal Nature of

• 
  eternal God is thy refuge, Deut. 33:27.
• from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God, Ps. 90:2.
• established of old: thou art from everlasting, Ps. 93:2.
• thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end, Ps. 102:27.
• Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God, Ps. 146:10.
• lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, Isa. 57:15.
• thy name is from everlasting, Isa. 63:16.
• I am the Lord, I change not, Mal. 3:6.

• being understood by … his eternal power and Godhead, Rom. 1:20.
• King eternal, immortal, invisible, 1 Tim. 1:17.
• Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever, Heb. 13:8 (Morm. 9:9; Moro. 10:7, 19; D&C 20:11–12).
• Alpha and Omega … the first and the last, Rev. 22:13.

• course of the Lord is one eternal round, 1 Ne. 10:19 (Alma 37:12; D&C 3:2; 35:1).
• one Eternal God, Alma 11:44.
• God … being from everlasting to everlasting, Moro. 7:22.

• I am endless, D&C 19:10.
• God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, D&C 20:17.
• Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, D&C 38:1.
• From eternity to eternity he is the same, D&C 76:4.

• Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end, Moses 1:3.
• Endless and Eternal is my name, Moses 7:35.
  
  I could pull a bunch more if you'd like.

 

[ChristisGod]

@ReChoired janes belief in Jesus and the Trinity is no different than yours unless you deny the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.

 

[ReChoired]

@ReChoired janes belief in Jesus and the Trinity is no different than yours unless you deny the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.

I deny LDS doctrine of Deity. I also deny the Roman Catholic doctrine of "Trinity". Both are error and of the system of Babylon.