Apostolic councils?

[DNB]

Wow.....thanks for that overwhelming evidence to support your disagreement that baptism as a symbolic gesture didn't start after the Reformation.

Here is MY EVIDENCE for what The Church has taught concerning baptism and it NOT being symoblic starting about 2,000 years:

80AD: THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS 11:1-10 and Second Clement 6
100AD: THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS 4:3:1-2 and 2:4:3
110AD: Ignatius of Antioch letter to Polycarp of Smyrna 6

Sooooo would you at least like to TRY and back up what you believe with facts instead of your opinion?

Patient Mary

That's fine Mary, put all your trust in the church as you like. My point was made from Scripture, about the various baptisms that were applied in the NT. Water dousing is a superficial act that edifies no one, and gains no one acceptance into God's church.

 

[DNB]

Nope, I didn't say that we should all be one. Jesus said it and I agree with him. You don't. Your argument is with Him, not me.

If you read that passage IN CONTEXT you will see that Jesus is talking about a universal Church where we all believe/practice/preach/teach the same thing. In John 17 Jesus says:

They were yours, and you gave them to me. And they have kept your word. For I have given them the words that you gave to me. And they have accepted these words! Father most holy, preserve them in your name, those whom you have given to me, so that they may be one, even as we are one. Sanctify them in truth. Your word is truth. And it is for them that I sanctify myself, so that they, too, may be sanctified in truth. But I am not praying for them only, but also for those who through their word shall believe in me. So may they all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me, and I am in you, so also may they be one in us: so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

So I ask you Jaybird and @DNB: How can we all be one in His word and the Truth if we don't have a universal Church that is built upon a rock of which the gates of hell will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18)? A universal Church that we can go to when we have a difference with our brother with that universal Church having the authority to call someone a pagan or tax collector (Matthew 18:17)???? A universal Church that is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15)??

I have found that Church. You two are still looking. You two believe YOU can interpret Scripture and come up with your own truth. Scripture teaches opposite of that.

Mary

Because history and empirical evidence has proven, that there is no one universal Church. Thus we accept God's manner in which man must find His truth - every man is an island as we stand before Christ on Judgment Day. Your idealistic view of a perfect church on earth, is naive and dangerous. Again, again, and again, history, councils, creeds and dogma, reveal where the truth lay, and where it doesn't, and not a single body has God's Word sufficiently in order for anyone to put their faith in one institution, over another.

 

[Brakelite]

I look to the Apostolic Church for the Truth. You look to YOU!!

YOU believe that at some point sound doctrine stopped being taught and what was taught to Christians all over the world did not align with Scripture and was NOT sound doctrine.

Scripture makes it clear YOU are not the final authority....The Church is!

I have read your past posts.....You do believe your opinion is above all others.

Sadly you are already a part of that since YOU decide what the Truth is and if YOU find 'a few others that share your opinion' then YOU feel like you are right in your worship.

All the Reformers were seeking the Most High and they all came up with different answers from the Most High

God abandoned us to all figure out what is true doctrine and what is a false teaching from false teachers?????

Notice how Jesus didn't pray that we may all have our own interpretations, our own beliefs or be divided.

Why do you follow the men who taught you that?

When they knock God will reveal to them the correct interpretation of every bible passage???

Soooooo I don't understand your twisted logic that if we (Christians) are all one (teaching the same thing that Jesus taught the Apostles) then that would then make Jesus, his Father you and me the same

thanks for that overwhelming evidence to support your disagreement that baptism as a symbolic gesture didn't start after the Reformation

You two believe YOU can interpret Scripture and come up with your own truth.

Your theory is that every single Christian for the last 2,000 years and the next 2,000 years will be revealed the truth if they knock on the door

There is barely any posts of Mary's posts that doesn't discuss anything without a strawman argument. Look at the last 10 posts of hers. She gayly and without shame charges everyone with openly ridiculous accusations, accusations that are outrageous if anyone seriously practices them, then she gloats that she is right because we are soooo wrong. Examples...

 

[DNB]

There is barely any posts of Mary's posts that doesn't discuss anything without a strawman argument. Look at the last 10 posts of hers. She gayly and without shame charges everyone with openly ridiculous accusations, accusations that are outrageous if anyone seriously practices them, then she gloats that she is right because we are soooo wrong. Examples...

Yes, I find her rather unreasonable, that I'm actually bewildered at half of her responses - entirely unrelated.

 

[Marymog]

You are extremely difficult to reason with? I've said a hundred times, trust no man or agency implicitly.

Hi DNB,

Lol.....I am difficult to reason with????

Please explain your reasoning: You are a man.....are you not? Soooooo why is it ok to trust your own interpretation of Scripture? You trust you and you trust no one else which means you will always be right because you can’t trust anyone else to be right....THATS REASONABLE?????

A group of 100 Christian men (what you call agency) get together, interpret Scripture, decide doctrine/dogma and if YOU don’t agree with them THEY are wrong??? I shouldn’t trust THEM but I can trust YOU or myself to come up with the truth???? Thats’ sound reasoning......

 

[Marymog]

That's fine Mary, put all your trust in the church as you like. My point was made from Scripture, about the various baptisms that were applied in the NT. Water dousing is a superficial act that edifies no one, and gains no one acceptance into God's church.

That’s fine DNB...Put all your trust in you. At least when I put all my trust in The Church I am trusting the pillar and foundation of Truth which was built upon a rock. When you put all your trust in you your truth dies when you die. My truth has been alive for 2,000 years and will be alive until the end of days.

Soooooo I see you have zero evidence to support your theory on baptism. That’s ok.....I already knew there was no evidence to support you. That is why I left the darkness of Protestant teaching and joined The Church because the evidence is overwhelming for The Church that you reject.

You are welcome to join The Church also if you like.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Your idealistic view of a perfect church on earth, is naive and dangerous.

Soooooo if I have hope that Jesus prayer that all Christians will become one in His word and in The Truth I am being naive and dangerous??????

Goodness....thank you for your time!!!

 

[Marymog]

Again, again, and again, history, councils, creeds and dogma, reveal where the truth lay, and where it doesn't, and not a single body has God's Word sufficiently in order for anyone to put their faith in one institution, over another.

Ummmmmm.......you put your faith in YOU over another sooooooo you are not practicing what you preach AND you are not practicing what Scripture teaches.

Scripture makes it VERY clear The Church is hierarchical and there are men over us in charge of our souls (Hebrews 13:17). There are multiple other passages I could quote but you will reject them also soooooo I won’t waste our time.

When you reject Scripture you reject The Church. The Church came first and Scripture later. You reject what brought you Scripture: The Church. You should stop rejecting The Church and you should accept it. It will accept you. You are welcome to join!!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

There is barely any posts of Mary's posts that doesn't discuss anything without a strawman argument. Look at the last 10 posts of hers. She gayly and without shame charges everyone with openly ridiculous accusations, accusations that are outrageous if anyone seriously practices them, then she gloats that she is right because we are soooo wrong. Examples...

Hi troll,

I have never claimed to be right. I have only claimed that the Church is right. The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth. You believe you are the pillar and foundation of truth. I believe i have found The Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Sooooooo instead of being a troll how about if you either defeat my posts (statements) with logic OR with Scripture?

Let’s start with the 8th quote in your post: Why do you follow the men that taught you that?

You know why I follow the men that I follow. Soooooo why do you follow your men Backlit???

Or another way to ask it: Why are the men you follow right and the men I follow wrong???

Patient Mary

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB,

Lol.....I am difficult to reason with????

Please explain your reasoning: You are a man.....are you not? Soooooo why is it ok to trust your own interpretation of Scripture? You trust you and you trust no one else which means you will always be right because you can’t trust anyone else to be right....THATS REASONABLE?????

A group of 100 Christian men (what you call agency) get together, interpret Scripture, decide doctrine/dogma and if YOU don’t agree with them THEY are wrong??? I shouldn’t trust THEM but I can trust YOU or myself to come up with the truth???? Thats’ sound reasoning......

Your last paragraph was correct, yes, that's sound reasoning.

 

[DNB]

That’s fine DNB...Put all your trust in you. At least when I put all my trust in The Church I am trusting the pillar and foundation of Truth which was built upon a rock. When you put all your trust in you your truth dies when you die. My truth has been alive for 2,000 years and will be alive until the end of days.

Soooooo I see you have zero evidence to support your theory on baptism. That’s ok.....I already knew there was no evidence to support you. That is why I left the darkness of Protestant teaching and joined The Church because the evidence is overwhelming for The Church that you reject.

You are welcome to join The Church also if you like.

Mary

As long as you are confident in that, Mary, that's all that i was saying. As long as your not abiding by Catholic dogma because of their perceived longevity, or the size of congregation, or whatever other superficial reason. As long as you believe, for the right reasons, that God has chosen them as such, then I agree with your conviction, one cannot go beyond their own comprehension, and one should never.

I personally feel that you are indoctrinated, and that you do not have a comprehensive or sound argument to justify the Catholic's exclusive authority - office of the papacy, intercession of saints, any mariology, and so on.

 

[DNB]

Soooooo if I have hope that Jesus prayer that all Christians will become one in His word and in The Truth I am being naive and dangerous??????

Goodness....thank you for your time!!!

Yes, very naive Mary, just as anyone thinking that there will be world peace one day, is very naive. Don't try and cavil about what appears to be your righteous sentiments, wake up and smell the coffee. Just as some think that takes a loving disposition to believe in universalism, it's not, it's naive and unBiblical.

 

[DNB]

Ummmmmm.......you put your faith in YOU over another sooooooo you are not practicing what you preach AND you are not practicing what Scripture teaches.

Scripture makes it VERY clear The Church is hierarchical and there are men over us in charge of our souls (Hebrews 13:17). There are multiple other passages I could quote but you will reject them also soooooo I won’t waste our time.

When you reject Scripture you reject The Church. The Church came first and Scripture later. You reject what brought you Scripture: The Church. You should stop rejecting The Church and you should accept it. It will accept you. You are welcome to join!!

Mary

Paul, and the rest of the apostles were fighting heresy from day one. It was incessant in Paul's case that many believe that his thorn-in-his-side was just that, constant Judiazers and Jews resisting and perverting his message. Jesus warned that savage wolves will infiltrate the Church immediately after his departure, and clearly, they have. Paul gave the same warning, and Peter spoke of many anti-Christs who have already come into the world who disparage and distort Scripture. Antiquity, Mary, is no guarantee for truth.

 

[Marymog]

Your last paragraph was correct, yes, that's sound reasoning.

Oh goodness....

 

[Marymog]

As long as you are confident in that, Mary, that's all that i was saying. As long as your not abiding by Catholic dogma because of their perceived longevity, or the size of congregation, or whatever other superficial reason. As long as you believe, for the right reasons, that God has chosen them as such, then I agree with your conviction, one cannot go beyond their own comprehension, and one should never.

I personally feel that you are indoctrinated, and that you do not have a comprehensive or sound argument to justify the Catholic's exclusive authority - office of the papacy, intercession of saints, any mariology, and so on.

I personally feel that you are indoctrinated in Reformation thinking and that you do not have a comprehensive or sound argument to justify the your Un-biblical belief that YOU have exclusive authority.

 

[Marymog]

Paul, and the rest of the apostles were fighting heresy from day one. It was incessant in Paul's case that many believe that his thorn-in-his-side was just that, constant Judiazers and Jews resisting and perverting his message. Jesus warned that savage wolves will infiltrate the Church immediately after his departure, and clearly, they have. Paul gave the same warning, and Peter spoke of many anti-Christs who have already come into the world who disparage and distort Scripture. Antiquity, Mary, is no guarantee for truth.

I agree. The Church has been fighting heresy from day one and savage wolves did enter The Church.....especially since the Reformation.

Sooooo antiquity, the longest held teaching of Christianity, is no guarantee for the truth but the 500 year “truth” (the truth that varies with each individual teacher of the truth) of the Reformers is a guarantee......fascinating theory.

 

[DNB]

I personally feel that you are indoctrinated in Reformation thinking and that you do not have a comprehensive or sound argument to justify the your Un-biblical belief that YOU have exclusive authority.

But I have clearly emphasized that I do not hold to any denomination or church as my sole authority. No indoctrination over here, that's why I am adamantly non-denominational - no name, comes before Jesus' name.

 

[DNB]

I agree. The Church has been fighting heresy from day one and savage wolves did enter The Church.....especially since the Reformation.

Sooooo antiquity, the longest held teaching of Christianity, is no guarantee for the truth but the 500 year “truth” (the truth that varies with each individual teacher of the truth) of the Reformers is a guarantee......fascinating theory.

You are very difficult to reason with Mary. How many times have I told that that, for one, I'm not Reformed or anything specific, and two, that no one can be trusted, we all have to study on our own behalf, to show ourselves as approved stewards of God's word, rightly dividing the truth.

 

[Marymog]

But I have clearly emphasized that I do not hold to any denomination or church as my sole authority. No indoctrination over here, that's why I am adamantly non-denominational - no name, comes before Jesus' name.

So let me see if I have got your theory correct.

I can believe/practice the truth that I want to believe and practice (like you do) as long as I am not indoctrinated into some denomination BUT if I find a denomination that believes and practices what I believe to be the truth I can’t do that? I have to be my own sole authority??

I can’t find that teaching in Scripture. Can you point it out to me?

 

[Marymog]

You are very difficult to reason with Mary. How many times have I told that that, for one, I'm not Reformed or anything specific, and two, that no one can be trusted, we all have to study on our own behalf, to show ourselves as approved stewards of God's word, rightly dividing the truth.

Lol....and there is no reasoning behind the theories you have put forth. You have yet to show me in Scripture where it says that each individual Christian for the last 2,000 years can “rightly divide the truth”. Ya’ know why you can’t show me? Because it’s not in Scripture.

I agree....no one (man) can be trusted. Scripture makes that clear.

So why do you trust yourself?