Are Protestants "saved? "

[Yehren]

Explain the statute in the Council of Trent where it says clearly that there is no salvation outside of the RCC.

It doesn't say that. It say "the church", not "Roman Catholic Church." In the same sense that Protestants refer to "the Holy Catholic Church" if they follow the Nicene Creed, it doesn't mean that they are talking about a particular denomination.

The Second Vatican Council declared that the Christian communities that are not in full communion, but only in "partial communion"[38] with the Catholic Church, "though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church". It explained that "some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."
Unitatis redintegratio

 

[Brakelite]

Well, let's take a look...

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
Lumen gentium

This is the official stand of The Church. Any Catholic who does not accept this finding that members of other Christian denominations are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, is in serious error.

I am not joined with Antichrist. Claiming other denominations are joined with Catholics in Christ presupposes Catholics are in Christ. I would suggest that some are. They are the ones relying and trusting in the true Christ.
Unfortunately the vast majority are relying on and trusting in the church, the sacraments therein, the rituals thereof, and the dogmas, traditions, and priestcraft of theur church. Their church to them is their salvation... Their church has, in their minds, replaced Christ and is therefore Antichrist. The counterfeit.
To attempt to claim all Protestants as brothers and sisters of this Antichrist as if this is a good thing that Protestants should be relieved about is a very clever slieght of hand which I reject outright.

 

[Yehren]

I am not joined with Antichrist. Claiming other denominations are joined with Catholics in Christ presupposes Catholics are in Christ. I would suggest that some are. They are the ones relying and trusting in the true Christ.
Unfortunately the vast majority are relying on and trusting in the church, the sacraments therein, the rituals thereof, and the dogmas, traditions, and priestcraft of theur church. Their church to them is their salvation... Their church has, in their minds, replaced Christ and is therefore Antichrist. The counterfeit.
To attempt to claim all Protestants as brothers and sisters of this Antichrist as if this is a good thing that Protestants should be relieved about is a very clever slieght of hand which I reject outright.

People who try to push other Christians away from God, only succeed in removing themselves from God. You can't separate Him from other Christians, even if you don't like them.

 

[Yehren]

Explain the statute in the Council of Trent where it says clearly that there is no salvation outside of the RCC.

No.

The Latin phrase extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means "outside the Church there is no salvation".
This expression comes from the writings of Saint Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop of the 3rd century. The axiom is often used as shorthand for the doctrine that the Church is necessary for salvation. It is a dogma in the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches in reference to their own communions. It is also held by many historic Protestant Churches. However, Protestants, Catholics and the Orthodox each have a unique ecclesiological understanding of what constitutes the Church. The theological basis for this doctrine is founded on the beliefs that (1) Jesus Christ personally established the one Church; and (2) the Church serves as the means by which the graces won by Christ are communicated to believers.

Kallistos Ware, a Greek Orthodox bishop, has expressed this doctrine as follows:


"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Wikipedia

Hence Pope Paul VI's assertion:
The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church. The Church includes others not in our denomination.

 

[Yehren]

Claiming other denominations are joined with Catholics in Christ presupposes Catholics are in Christ. I would suggest that some are.

Of course. Not everyone in the Roman Catholic Church is saved, and not everyone outside of it is destined for hell. See Augustine's comment above.

You have as much chance of salvation in other denominations as you would if you were in the Roman Catholic Church. Do the will of the father, and you will enter the kingdom of God.

Theology will not save you. A loving heart for God and your neighbor will save you.

 

[Brakelite]

People who try to push other Christians away from God,

Not from God Yeheran. From god. Calling people out of Babylon is calling them to Christ. You seem to not recognise the distinction between God and your church.

Theology will not save you. A loving heart for God and your neighbor will save you.

No, love saves no one. Without Christ, ye can do nothing. Christ, first and last. Love is the fruit of knowing Jesus. Having Jesus abiding within is having love abiding within. It is the person of Christ and Him crucified that saves. Not our love for Him, not our love for others. That is akin to saying the keeping of the commandments saves us. They don't.

 

[Philip James]

No, love saves no one.

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.

So you don't go along with the Council of Trent where it condemns all Protestants to hell?

 

[Brakelite]

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.

KJV John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We are to abide in Christ. It is in Him that we live, and move, and have our being. It is in Christ, the living High Priest now serving the Father and ministering and interceding on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary, that we must abide. It is He Who is the Alpha, and Omega. The First and the Last. The Beginning and the End. Only in His name are we saved. We are not saved by our love. We are not saved by our doing good works. We are not saved through adhering to church teachings and practices, no matter how high and noble those teachings and practices may be. We are saved only by the blood of the Lamb. The crucified Savior who gave Himself a ransom for the human race.
Everything else is the fruit of that precious gift. Knowing Christ first, and submitting oneself to His will and purpose for your life... Seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness... Then love as you were first loved by self sacrificing service to others. But it is Christ who saves... Not the results. The results my friend is the evidence of that salvation. If indeed your love is the same kind of love that is self sacrificing and unmindful of self. Like the love of Moses and Paul who were willing to give up eternity if that could possibly save Israel. Just as the Son if God was willing to give up eternity for you, thinking eternal death a better option than living in eternity without you.

 

[Yehren]

No, love saves no one.

It is all that matters in your salvation:

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Jesus told his followers to emulate a heretic who had charity, rather than a religiously-correct Levite who did not. I believe Him.

 

[Yehren]

So you don't go along with the Council of Trent where it condemns all Protestants to hell?

It does not. Only if one realizes that he's following a false doctrine, will he put his soul at risk. The principle of invincible ignorance makes it clear that one cannot be guilty of sin at all, if one cannot believe it is sin. Sin is a rebellion against God, and requires that one know this.

This is why Lumen Gentium makes it clear that Protestants are united with us in the Holy Spirit. As you many have noticed, the only ones objecting to this truth on this forum, are anti-Catholics. That alone should settle the issue.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It does not. Only if one realizes that he's following a false doctrine, will he put his soul at risk. The principle of invincible ignorance makes it clear that one cannot be guilty of sin at all, if one cannot believe it is sin. Sin is a rebellion against God, and requires that one know this.

This is why Lumen Gentium makes it clear that Protestants are united with us in the Holy Spirit. As you many have noticed, the only ones objecting to this truth on this forum, are anti-Catholics. That alone should settle the issue.

The Council of Trent makes it clear that Protestants by believing in justification by faith are being disobedient to Church doctrine and therefore are subject to excommunication. It is not that Protestants are anti-Catholic, but that the Council of Trent is decidedly anti-Protestant. It is that anti-Protestant attitude that caused the pope in the Middle Ages to get his crusaders to wipe out all Protestants, men, women and children who were faithful Christians the same as you and me, from the South of France, resulting in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Also the RCC is anti-Jew, and this is borne out by history where the Crusaders went into the Holy Land and slaughtered every Jew they could lay their hands on - more than any Muslims killed.

It is also demonstrated in South American countries where the RCC is dominant, Protestant churches are burned and members are beaten and killed.

So, it is understandable that Martin Luther called the pope the Anti-Christ, and the early Protestants and Puritans were decidedly anti-Catholic - because they were anti murder of innocent Christian people.

I guess the family of the murdered man and his child, burned at the stake in the Philippines for saying "God be praised" instead of "Mary be praised" while at Mass in the 1830s, would understandably be anti-Catholic.

 

[Yehren]

The Council of Trent makes it clear that Protestants by believing in justification by faith are being disobedient to Church doctrine and therefore are subject to excommunication.

Hence, no longer part of the Roman Catholic Church. Turns out though, that The Church recognizes that even if they aren't Roman Catholic, they are Christians, and joined with us in the Holy Spirit.

It's true that during the Reformation, there were both Catholics and Protestants who eagerly tortured and burned any of the other side they could find. Luther advocated the slaughter of peasants for nothing more than being free of serfdom. Calvin had other Protestants killed for not agreeing with him. I get that. Both sides committed horrible atrocities. For every Cromwell, there was a Catholic of similar inclinations.

But the fact remains. The Church considers all baptized Christians, even those not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, to be joined with us in the Holy Spirit.

And if you read Luther's The Jews and Their Lies , you will find about 90 percent of Hitler's final solution for the Jews; the Nazis pointed this out, and idolized Luther as a true German patriot. So there is that. Instead of keeping accounts on who was most evil, we should focus on the things that unite us in Christ.

His church is bigger than any particular denomination. That's just how it is, and how it will be.

And I should say that Luther's unfortunate hatred for the Jews does not erase the man's faith in God. His "Hier stehe Ich, Ich kann nicht anders." is a shining example of faith and courage. He was a complex man, and heroic in some ways, with at least one terrible flaw. So are we all. I'm not beating up on him for his hatred of Jews.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hence, no longer part of the Roman Catholic Church. Turns out though, that The Church recognizes that even if they aren't Roman Catholic, they are Christians, and joined with us in the Holy Spirit.

It's true that during the Reformation, there were both Catholics and Protestants who eagerly tortured and burned any of the other side they could find. Luther advocated the slaughter of peasants for nothing more than being free of serfdom. Calvin had other Protestants killed for not agreeing with him. I get that. Both sides committed horrible atrocities. For every Cromwell, there was a Catholic of similar inclinations.

But the fact remains. The Church considers all baptized Christians, even those not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, to be joined with us in the Holy Spirit.

And if you read Luther's The Jews and Their Lies , you will find about 90 percent of Hitler's final solution for the Jews; the Nazis pointed this out, and idolized Luther as a true German patriot. So there is that. Instead of keeping accounts on who was most evil, we should focus on the things that unite us in Christ.

His church is bigger than any particular denomination. That's just how it is, and how it will be.

And I should say that Luther's unfortunate hatred for the Jews does not erase the man's faith in God. His "Hier stehe Ich, Ich kann nicht anders." is a shining example of faith and courage. He was a complex man, and heroic in some ways, with at least one terrible flaw. So are we all. I'm not beating up on him for his hatred of Jews.

But we can't get away from the clear canon of the Council of Trent, which Vatican II totally ratified, that Protestant doctrinal belief is disobedience to Church doctrine and that they should be anathema - in other words excommunicated, put right out of fellowship, and treated as persona non-gratia. So, according to RCC official teaching, Protestants are not Christian, and certainly not "brothers in Christ".

And reading the abusive, acidic, and accusative responses to my posts, shows that the RCC believing members are not fellowshipping with me as a brother in Christ.

 

[Yehren]

But we can't get away from the clear canon of the Council of Trent, which Vatican II totally ratified, that Protestant doctrinal belief is disobedience to Church doctrine and that they should be anathema - in other words excommunicated, put right out of fellowship, and treated as persona non-gratia. So, according to RCC official teaching, Protestants are not Christian, and certainly not "brothers in Christ".

I just showed you official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, saying that they are.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

This is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. It's very clear.

And reading the abusive, acidic, and accusative responses to my posts, shows that the RCC believing members are not fellowshipping with me as a brother in Christ.

Well, that's another issue, isn't it? I haven't been paying attention to your other conversations, but if any Roman Catholic denies what I've just shown you here, they are in serious error. I can tell you that I do accept the Church's teaching on this issue, and I have no reason to suspect that you are not joined with all other Christians by the Holy Spirit.

And you've given me considerable reason to believe that you are.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I just showed you official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, saying that they are.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

This is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. It's very clear.



Well, that's another issue, isn't it? I haven't been paying attention to your other conversations, but if any Roman Catholic denies what I've just shown you here, they are in serious error.

Then they should have another Council and amend the Council of Trent by taking out the anathema for those who believe in justification by faith alone in Christ apart from works.

 

[Yehren]

Then they should have another Council and amend the Council of Trent by taking out the anathema for those who believe in justification by faith alone in Christ apart from works.

I don't see a problem, as Trent only affects those who adhere to the Roman Catholic Church. If your denomination holds to "faith only", you can't be a heretic for accepting that, and you can't be excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, because you're not part of it.

Just being wrong about some part of Christian theology won't lose your salvation for you. That's not how God decides. Theology won't save you; loving God and loving your fellow man will save you. Jesus says everything else depends on that.

So simple. And yet so hard for men to accept.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don't see a problem, as Trent only affects those who adhere to the Roman Catholic Church. If your denomination holds to "faith only", you can't be a heretic for accepting that, and you can't be excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, because you're not part of it.

Just being wrong about some part of Christian theology won't lose your salvation for you. That's not how God decides. Theology won't save you; loving God and loving your fellow man will save you. Jesus says everything else depends on that.

So simple. And yet so hard for men to accept.

According to the Catholic church, because I believe in justification by faith alone in Christ, apart from works, I am a heretic and if I held that view in the Middle Ages, I would have been burned at the stake. So that ain't no brotherly fellowship in my books!

 

[Joseph77]

According to the Catholic church, because I believe in justification by faith alone in Christ, apart from works, I am a heretic and if I held that view in the Middle Ages, I would have been burned at the stake. So that ain't no brotherly fellowship in my books!

COOL! Welcome my fellow heretic ! (with Martin Luther ) ==== I read that he LEAPED FOR JOY when he got his notice of freedom....... (when he was excommunicated)

 

[Yehren]

According to the Catholic church, because I believe in justification by faith alone in Christ, apart from works, I am a heretic

Last time I checked, it was that you are joined with us in the Holy Spirit. Even if you're wrong about that.

and if I held that view in the Middle Ages, I would have been burned at the stake.

Or if you didn't, and were where Protestants had control, you would have been burned at the stake. That's how it was then. Or even worse, if you were Jewish where Lutherans were in power...

So that ain't no brotherly fellowship in my books!

Nope. But Lutherans don't hate Jews today, and Catholics accept that Protestants are our fellow Christians, and most Protestants know this as well.

Considerable improvement, I'd say.