Are you predestined or did you make a choice?
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Which means... it is disputed.
Well... it's 'Arminians'...
Regardless where one falls on the Election "spectrum," the question really comes down to accepting the following passages (emphases mine of course), which are very much unambiguous:"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (Jesus, John 10:22-27)
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another. If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (Jesus, John 15:16-19)
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Paul, Romans 9:19-24)
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Paul, Ephesians 2:4-10)
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Paul, Philippians 2:13-14)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)
How do you see it, Ferris?
Grace and peace to you.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well it is not Calvinism but Scripture. and it doesn't matter how much of CVhristendom accepts or rejects a biblical truth. If it is Scripture it is truth even if only 1 person follows it.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Correct! they were and are the elect from the foundation of the world.
This is the argument. And I have posted all the
biblical verses that show man in and of Himself has not the capacity to choose God.
I choose to believe the definition of elect that has been around for millenia.
Well one cannot be conformed unless they are foreknown and elect from the foundation of the world. Yes because we are the elect we are marked off in advance (predestined) to be conformed to the image of Jesus. That means the unelect are not predestined.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
The vessels of mercy were prepared ahead of time! from before the foundation of the world!
That is not foreknowledge. At least according to koine greek. Foreknowledge is known what He will do in advance. A good word picture is taking a trip and having a AAA trip tik. You know where you are going, when you will turn and such because you planned it in advance.
It is also like a doctor who gives a cancer patient an ezxcellent prognosis of healing, because He knows what he will do and knows the outcomes of His actions, not the patient.
All of the above.
Unsaved man will not choose the things of God unless god compels them. I have given you several times over several threads that clearly and unambiguously show the Scriptures saying an unsaved individual cannot and will not choose the things of God!
Did God make us all exactly as He pleased? Of course He did. Did He harden Pharaoh's heart so He could destroy Pharaoh? Of course He did.
Romans 9
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
Romans 9
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What do we do with the part that says Pharaoh also hardened his heart?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Why can't foreknowledge be simply knowing the future? And so in the context of this discussion God is certainly not mystified as to who will believe and be saved in the future. Why does foreknowledge have to mean God makes the future and not just knows the future?
Both are true.
Romans 9
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
That is an excellent question, Ferris. Please, allow me.
Let's look at what Paul says about "those whom He foreknew" in Romans 8:29...
God is the creator, right? And He knows who everybody is, and He knows what they will do at any point in their lives, right? Yes, and we would agree on all of these questions. Yes, yes, and yes. But think about what Paul says there in Romans 8:29. He says "those whom He foreknew," and in so doing, he is talking about a specific group of people, less than the whole. So implicitly, he's saying that there are at least some that God did not foreknow. So:
1. the foreknowledge that Paul is speaking of cannot be merely a cognitive knowing beforehand, because in that sense, God foreknows everybody and everything. But in Paul's immediate context, he is talking about a specific group whom God foreknew. Again, the strong implication is that there are at least some whom God did not foreknow. So this verb translated to the English 'foreknew' cannot ~ cannot ~ be in merely a cognitive sense.
2. if God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, whereas Paul's whole emphasis is on God's free initiative of grace (plus it's contrary to what Paul says in Romans 9:16, that it depends not on man who wills or acts, but on God, Who has mercy.
What it does mean is this. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament and in the Greek of the New, this verb "to know" expresses much more than mere intellectual cognition; it denotes a personal relationship of care and affection. Thus, when God 'knows" people, He watches over them, cares for them, even loves them. Well, yes, He watches over, cares for, and loves everybody, but His elect He loves ~ even before the foundation of the world, remember ~ in a sovereign, distinguishing way, a special, choosing way in which he does not love others. Again, He loves others, but not in the same sovereign, distinguishing way as His elect. On a lesser level, any parent would say this about his or her own children; as a father, I love all children and all people, but I love my own children in a different ~ higher ~ way. So too with God, but on a much greater level. As Creator, this is His right; He is the potter and we are the clay. He can make some for noble use and some for common use, just as Paul says, and for just the reasons that Paul says, in Romans 9.
Grace and peace to you.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Couldn't it be his foreknowledge in regard to who he would call? Like how he knew ahead of time that he would call the nation of Israel.
"28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew (the called), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" Romans 8:28-29
"1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew." Romans 11:1-2
Foreknowledge seems to be in regard to being called. God knew ahead of time that he would call a nation and people out of the world for himself and that the destiny of these called out ones is they will be conformed to the image of His Son. That's the plan. The plan ordained from before the beginning of creation. "1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew." Romans 11:1-2
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
here is what foreknew means in Romans 8:29 not what you have claimed about from Strongs/ThayersThat is an excellent question, Ferris. Please, allow me.
Let's look at what Paul says about "those whom He foreknew" in Romans 8:29...
God is the creator, right? And He knows who everybody is, and He knows what they will do at any point in their lives, right? Yes, and we would agree on all of these questions. Yes, yes, and yes. But think about what Paul says there in Romans 8:29. He says "those whom He foreknew," and in so doing, he is talking about a specific group of people, less than the whole. So implicitly, he's saying that there are at least some that God did not foreknow. So:
1. the foreknowledge that Paul is speaking of cannot be merely a cognitive knowing beforehand, because in that sense, God foreknows everybody and everything
2. if God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, whereas Paul's whole emphasis is on God's free initiative of grace (plus it's contrary to what Paul says in Romans 9:16, that it depends not on man who wills or acts, but on God, Who has mercy.
What it does mean is this. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament and in the Greek of the New, this verb "to know" expresses much more than mere intellectual cognition; it denotes a personal relationship of care and affection. Thus, when God 'knows" people, He watches over them, cares for them, even loves them. Well, yes, He watches over, cares for, and loves everybody, but His elect He loves ~ even before the foundation of the world, remember ~ in a sovereign, distinguishing way, a special, choosing way in which he does not love others. Again, He loves others, but not in the same sovereign, distinguishing way as His elect. On a lesser level, any parent would say this about his or her own children; as a father, I love all children and all people, but I love my own children in a different ~ higher ~ way. So too with God, but on a much greater level. As Creator, this is His right; He is the potter and we are the clay. He can make some for noble use and some for common use, just as Paul says, and for just the reasons that Paul says, in Romans 9.
Grace and peace to you
Strong's Concordance
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them"
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29
Sure, but the point is that is calling ~ which is much more than just, "Hey, dude, you wanna get saved?"
...facetious but true... ~ is an proactive act of love on His part; His calling is a drawing of the sinner unto Himself, as a father would pick up his child and carry him/her to safety. This is His mercy and compassion on the person.Right, and I agree, but Paul's context denotes much more than that. In the mere sense that God "knew ahead of time," God knows every one (and every thing) ahead of time. But Paul, by "those whom He foreknew," is saying implicitly that there are at least some that He did not foreknow, so it cannot be mere knowing ahead of time. And even beyond that, using a good English concordance, do a word search of "appoint," or "appointed," and you will see (I hope) that God doesn't merely "know ahead of time" as if He has no control over what happens and is just hoping things "turn out okay," but rather appoints these things to happen. Acts 13:48 is (or should be, anyway) very instructive here:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
God is completely sovereign over His creation. Nothing takes Him by surprise. And He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, as Paul says in Romans 8:28, which is the verse immediately preceding the verse concerning His foreknowledge (verse 29) ~ as you yourself point out above. In what you are suggesting, though ~ that "He knew ahead of time that he would call the nation of Israel"... and I know this is not your intent, but it is the effect ~ you are saying that Paul completely changed his own context from what it was in verse 28 to something entirely opposite in verse 29. I would submit to you that is absolutely not the case.
Grace and peace to you, Ferris.
I'm not suggesting that Strong's/Thayer's is not useful, but here, it is wrong, at least in some cases, and Romans 8:29 is one. Again (as I said above), we must understand what it can also mean to know someone, as in the context of both the Hebrew and the Greek. I'm not saying "knew" or "know" can't mean mere "knowing beforehand," because, yes, there are Biblical references where this is obviously the context. But here in Romans 8:29, the context is quite different. Appropriate references can be seen here:
- (Hebrew) in Genesis 4, where Adam knew Eve, resulting in her bearing Cain and then Abel (Genesis 4:1-2), and Cain later knew his wife, resulting in her bearing Enoch (Genesis 4:17)
- (Greek) in Matthew 7, where, in Jesus's description of the final Judgment, He says He will say to some, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
someone who looks on the outside like they are a believer.
Jesus summed it weel in the parable of the wheat and tares. Teh tares looked just like wheatr until near harvest time when the wheat would bend from the germ and the tares would still be Straight up. So a fake believe can kinow th elanguage, act like us, do great things, but never trusted in the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus for their salvation.
Well God knows and does both. but foreknowledge does not mean simply knowing in advance what some will do. That is not how the word pro-ginosko is used. In Greek it is knowledge in advance through foreordination, not just simply seeing into teh future and knowing what people will do.
Once again the unsaved man will never wish to choose God. We in our unsaved are His enemies, we think His things are foolish, we cannot understand those things, we cannot be brought subject to the law of God nor want to be, we cannot please God.
there is nothing in Scripture that explicitly shows God leaves the choice of salvation to unsaved man. Many say there are verses that imply it, but I would rather trust explicit meaning versesa, than verses that may imply something- especially in light of what is explicitly written.
Well I am off to visit one of our 6 children, his bea utiful wife and precious granddaughter. See you either Tues. or Weds.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
We know that, but who made it so they seek Him and want his things?
Follow the posts back to the point being addressed.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
It is god who changes our hearts!
Remember this passage in Phillipians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It is god who firsts puts in us to do His will (including getting saved) and then He empowers us to do so.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Are you predestined or did you make a choice?
I've made lots of choices....none of which were predestined......even these words.......or were you predestined to believe them or not believe them?
I've made lots of choices....none of which were predestined......even these words.......or were you predestined to believe them or not believe them?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
But the point I was making is there is no change of heart in the false believer. Yet they reach out to God without aid of God.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
But it is not a real reaching out to God.
reaching out to God is akin to coming to Jesus! No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them to Jesus. So it is either merely empotionasl impulses, self righteous religion or mere playing.
Remember, on the surface, false righteousness can look just like true righteousness for a time. As John wrote in His pepitle, they went out from among us, for they were not of us
!
False believers will look like real believers many times until harvest time. god knows the difference.
Anyone who desires God will find god and salvation- without fail. So the false believer was not seeking God on god's terms but on their own terms.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Let me make this simple.
Jesus said- "You did not choose me, but I chose you!"
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
chosen is eklegomai= top pick for ones self, to choose to make a choice.
There is nothing in any passage that jesus chooses us on the basis we choose Him. or that He picks us because we pick Him first. that is just Jacob Armenius trying to salvage fallen human nature and allow it to have some semblance of goodness left in it.
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