Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

[Hidden In Him]

I couldn't agree more! It is because sometimes the Greek has four or five different words with different meanings and applications for just one of our words - like our word "love." 1 John 3:23 to love your neighbor is agape - the God kind of moral love, the one where you would lay down your life for a friend. One day after the crucifixion and resurrection (after Peter had denied Him three times), Peter and Jesus were having a conversation and Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him, and Peter said you know I love you; feed my sheep. Then again Jesus asks Peter if he loved Him, and Peter said he loved him. Then the third time Jesus asks the same thing, Peter do you love Me, and Peter said he did. But look at the same conversation in technicolor! What Jesus was actually saying is Peter to you agape Me, (would you die for me) and Peter said, I phileo (the friendship kind of love in Greek) you. The Jesus said, Peter do you agape Me, and Peter said he phileoed Him. Then the last time Jesus came down to Peter's level and said, Peter do you phileo Me, and Peter said, yes Lord I phileo You.

Yes. There are actually numerous complications like this when it comes to interpretation:
- Different Greek words normally accounted for by only a single word in English (like the above example)
- Different English translations accounting for a single Greek word, and
- Different applications (in context) of the same exact Greek word properly translated using the same exact English word.

That last one is what I believe we have here in this thread.

 

[Harvest 1874]

4. Therefore -- for all intents and purposes -- Calvinists are saved BEFORE they believe! About as bizarre a doctrine as one could find.

I can think of another, it's called the Trinity

 

[bbyrd009]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

2 Peter 3:16 Lexicon: as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

which I Quote bc imo the intent of both Believe and Saved have been wrestled away from Scripture

 

[Episkopos]

God decides these things. Pointless speculations aside.

 

[Taken]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil

I would say an individual is SAVED, Because they FAITHFULLY agreed to submit their LIFE to the Lord.

Further to your point:

Gods word is Provided TO People.
People have the Freewill TO Hear/Read.
People have the Freewill TO Believe what they ...hear / read...(or NOT)
People who BEGIN Believing; Receive FAITH
...FROM the Lord.
People who CONTINUE Believing; CONTINUE
...Receiving MORE FAITH from the Lord
People who STOP Believing; STOP Receiving
...FAITH from the Lord.
People who WERE Believing, WERE Receiving
...FAITH from the Lord, and then the Belief
...AND Faith STOPPED, are called having;
...Fallen from Faith.

Judas is an Example of one who Believed, followed, trusted, gained Faith, Was EN-trusted as the Disciples Treasurer...
...AND THEN STOPPED....and made his own Standing Against the Lord.

People choosing to Believe, Gaining Faith are NOT SAVED UNTIL THEY make a VOW to Commit, which is Effected by their own WORD of Confession of Belief, and the Lords Response to EFFECT their Salvation, by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Once Salvation IS Effected, by the Power of the Holy Spirit it is Permanent. Thereafter there IS NO "falling from Faith" for that Individual.

IOW, an indivdual does not have the POWER to KEEP himself IN FAITH,
"but"
the POWER of the Holy Spirit DOES have the POWER to KEEP an individual IN FAITH"FULLNESS" to thee Lord God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

Yes. There are actually numerous complications like this when it comes to interpretation:
- Different Greek words normally accounted for by only a single word in English (like the above example)
- Different English translations accounting for a single Greek word, and
- Different applications (in context) of the same exact Greek word properly translated using the same exact English word.

That last one is what I believe we have here in this thread.

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” (Ezekiel 36:26–27)

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise (regenerate) thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6)

Notice the emphasis on God causing us to believe and love him.

“When Apollos wanted to cross over to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he assisted greatly those who had believed by grace,” (Acts 18:27)

 

[Taken]

Are you suggesting that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit, and not the result of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Spirit?

If it were indeed a gift, then God would give it to absolutely everyone, since He commands all men to repent and believe on Christ.

I would say Faith and Salvation ARE gifts.
In short, WHATEVER the Lord God GIVES to a man ARE gifts. (And some are called Rewards for when an individual has received particular gifts.)

No, God does not dole out the SAME Gifts to Everyone.

In particular circumstances; God Gives GIFTS to individuals FOR the EFFORTS the individual has Revealed.

For example;
There are men (not in belief) who farm, dig, till, plant, harvest, and feed their families...
AND God causes RAIN on their Fields, just as He causes RAIN on a believers Fields.

The Difference is; A believer will Thank God for the Rain. An unbeliever will not be Thankful to God.

Gifts from God are Numerous, and given Individually to men.

Not ALL men, Believe IN God, obey Commands of God, or receive particular Gifts from God.

Any man Receiving the Gift of Salvation is PER a particular TIMEFRAME of that particular individual. And that TIMEFRAME is always DURING that individuals NATURAL (BLOOD FLOWING) LIFE-Span.

Obviously God WANTS ALL to Believe....
And ALL WILL Believe.

Obviously God WANTS ALL to be SAVED...
But ALL WILL NOT be Saved.

All who BECOME SAVED, by Hearing/Reading/Believing/Receiving the gift of Faith/ Confessing/ Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit; Become Gods Inheritance.

It's a process, between an individual and thee Lord God. Choices of the individual and the Responses of thee Lord God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

The gift is eternal life so what is your point?
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Rom 6:23)

As I said in my previous post, if saving faith were a gift, and God desires the salvation of all mankind, then all men would receive that "gift", and all would be saved. The fact that all are not saved, nor will all be saved, proves that saving faith is not a gift.

There are many who deliberately twist the meaning of Ephesians 2:8,9 to make it say what it does not say. In that verse, and many others, eternal life is the GIFT of God to those who believe.

A person can reject the gift of faith, by which we have access to this grace wherein we stand.

 

[Dave L]

A person can reject the gift of faith, by which we have access to this grace wherein we stand.

This is like saying a cat can reject being a cat. Believers are believers according to their new nature. Just as a cat is a cat, and wants to be a cat according to it's nature.

 

[justbyfaith]

I can think of another, it's called the Trinity

It ain't so bizarre...

Trinity vs. Tritheism

 

[Helen]

You need to keep digging down to get to the bottom of this. Faith comes by hearing the word. The words are Spirit and life. They produce the New Birth (indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23)

Those who think their choosing to believe saved them, were already saved in that they believed (were saved according to Jesus), or they would not have chosen to believe. Keep digging........it's worth the effort.

Aah...I think I understand.
Do you mean that we could never have responded (chosen) unless we had first heard Him calling us?

To that I agree.
He kept nudging and nudging me, and I knew it was Him wanting a response...and I was wanting inner peace with Him.
How’s that song go?
‘He called ere I knew Him ....’

 

[Dave L]

Aah...I think I understand.
Do you mean that we could never have responded (chosen) unless we had first heard Him calling us?

To that I agree.
He kept nudging and nudging me, and I knew it was Him wanting a response...and I was wanting inner peace with Him.
How’s that song go?
‘He called ere I knew Him ....’

I agree. Jesus told Peter it's hard to kick against the goads.

“We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice speaking to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’” (Acts 26:14)

"goads are Sharp sticks used to prod animals, such as oxen in plowing"

The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. (2009). Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers.

 

[Helen]

I agree. Jesus told Peter it's hard to kick against the goads.

“We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice speaking to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’” (Acts 26:14)

"goads are Sharp sticks used to prod animals, such as oxen in plowing"

The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. (2009). Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers.

I think the answer to the OP question is:-
BECAUSE we first heard the Jesus had saved us on the cross, and we were free, we then believed and had the sure confidence that we were saved, but we were saved before we believed , we just didn't know it. Just like the slaves in the cotton fields. The declaration was signed, they were FREE, many were never told the news, others heard it, but were too afraid of the masters to leave. Some heard it, believed it, and walked free.
But they were free as soon as it was declare to be so.

@Enoch111

 

[Windmillcharge]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

Neither.
Salvation does not depend on us or on what we do.

We are saved because God chose us before he created the universe and it is he who gave us to Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

Have you noticed many salvation passages can be read two ways? An example would be "whoever believes will be saved" can mean whoever has this trait will be saved. Or as most prefer, "whoever chooses to believe will be saved". Also, "as many as received him" can be both active and passive. Active would be they received him with open arms. Passive would be his ankle bone received strength and he was healed. So we can receive Christ as we receive a pat on the back. Or we can receive him as a dignitary receives guests.

If we make our interpretations conform to grace as unmerited favor, it's easy to see our passivity in the texts we like to quote for salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Aah...I think I understand.
Do you mean that we could never have responded (chosen) unless we had first heard Him calling us?

To that I agree.
He kept nudging and nudging me, and I knew it was Him wanting a response...and I was wanting inner peace with Him.
How’s that song go?
‘He called ere I knew Him ....’

I think the actual words are, "He loved me ere I knew Him, and all my love is due Him..."

I think the answer to the OP question is:-
BECAUSE we first heard the Jesus had saved us on the cross, and we were free, we then believed and had the sure confidence that we were saved, but we were saved before we believed , we just didn't know it. Just like the slaves in the cotton fields. The declaration was signed, they were FREE, many were never told the news, others heard it, but were too afraid of the masters to leave. Some heard it, believed it, and walked free.
But they were free as soon as it was declare to be so.

@Enoch111

Nevertheless, those slaves who never believed in the proclamation would have never become free in the practical sense; they would have remained slaves and the proclamation would have availed them nothing.

Therefore, as it is written, He is the Saviour of all men, especially of them that believe...1 Timothy 4:10.

 

[Enoch111]

A person can reject the gift of faith, by which we have access to this grace wherein we stand.

Not according to Calvinistic beliefs. IRRESISTIBLE GRACE guarantees that the so-called "gift of faith" cannot be rejected! TULIP ties everything together in one neat little package (which is simply another gospel).

However, all of this is sheer nonsense. As I said, since God desires the salvation of ALL MANKIND, if He were giving the gift of faith, He would give "the gift of faith" to all, grace would be irresistible, and all would be saved! But that is NOT Gospel truth. Just spiritual nonsense.

Faith is generated by (1) THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL and (2) THE CONVICTING AND CONVINCING POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. And all may obey the Gospel. But all will not obey the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why do Christians constantly OPPOSE Bible truth?

 

[Enoch111]

I would say Faith and Salvation ARE gifts.

Salvation (eternal life) is indeed the gift of God (Rom 6:23). But if saving faith were "a gift" then ALL would be saved, because God desires the salvation of all mankind. Do you see your dilemma?

1. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)

2. God commands all men everywhere to believe on Christ (1 Jn 3:23)

3. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4)

4. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9)

So if faith were a gift of God (as you claim) then all would be saved.

The whole point of the preaching of the Gospel and the Great Commission is to generate faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. That is how faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:7) But Universalism is false doctrine, since all will not believe.

 

[GTW27]

Blessings in Christ Jesus! We have all come by the same way as when Lazarus was called from the tomb "Lazarus come forth". From death unto life, eternal life.

 

[Enoch111]

I can think of another, it's called the Trinity

So you must be a Jehovah's Witness (or some such adherent). But the Bible is very clear that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God in three Persons.