Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

[Dave L]

Not according to Calvinistic beliefs. IRRESISTIBLE GRACE guarantees that the so-called "gift of faith" cannot be rejected! TULIP ties everything together in one neat little package (which is simply another gospel).

However, all of this is sheer nonsense. As I said, since God desires the salvation of ALL MANKIND, if He were giving the gift of faith, He would give "the gift of faith" to all, grace would be irresistible, and all would be saved! But that is NOT Gospel truth. Just spiritual nonsense.

Faith is generated by (1) THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL and (2) THE CONVICTING AND CONVINCING POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. And all may obey the Gospel. But all will not obey the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why do Christians constantly OPPOSE Bible truth?

What you do not understand is how we become a new creation through the New Birth. Therein is the nature to believe, hate sin, love God, and a desire to live a holy life. Those who fall away never experienced this but tried to act like Christians through the flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

But if saving faith were "a gift" then ALL would be saved, because God desires the salvation of all mankind.

Only if grace is irresistible.

But since it isn't, mankind can reject the gift of faith, is what I was trying to say to you.

Sorry if that put a wrench in the monkey-works of what you were trying to say to the Calvinists.

 

[Dave L]

Only if grace is irresistible.

But since it isn't, mankind can reject the gift of faith, is what I was trying to say to you.

Sorry if that put a wrench in the monkey-works of what you were trying to say to the Calvinists.

You do not understand the nature of the New Birth. Those who are born again hate sin and love holiness. If a person does not experience this, they are not born again.

 

[justbyfaith]

You do not understand the nature of the New Birth. Those who are born again hate sin and love holiness. If a person does not experience this, they are not born again.

What I believe is that faith in Jesus is the way to receive the new birth. You are the one who doesn't understand the nature of things. Instead of making blanket statements about your opponent that attempt to discredit (which is a logical fallacy), you should show how Romans 5:2 doesn't teach that faith is the catalyst for salvation.

btw, I agree that those who are born again hate sin and love holiness. But this does not happen out of the blue, one must put their faith in Christ to receive this salvation, regeneration, and renewing.

 

[justbyfaith]

What you do not understand is how we become a new creation through the New Birth.

I'm really interested in your take on this as a hyper-Calvinist. How does one receive the new birth?

 

[Dave L]

I'm really interested in your take on this. How does one receive the new birth?

We have no control over the new birth just as we had no control over our natural birth. God raises us spiritually from the dead, often through the spoken word, which is Spirit and life. Those who believe are born again and those who reject the message remain spiritually dead. The preacher tells any who believe to repent and be baptized. Those who follow through prove their faith is valid. Repentance turns the new birth into the baptism of the Holy Spirit. At first the Spirit is at a stand-off with the flesh. Repentance weakens the flesh and strengthens the Spirit submersing us therein.

 

[Dave L]

What I believe is that faith in Jesus is the way to receive the new birth. You are the one who doesn't understand the nature of things. Instead of making blanket statements about your opponent that attempt to discredit (which is a logical fallacy), you should show how Romans 5:2 doesn't teach that faith is the catalyst for salvation.

btw, I agree that those who are born again hate sin and love holiness. But this does not happen out of the blue, one must put their faith in Christ to receive this salvation, regeneration, and renewing.

The flesh loves sin and hates God. It will never choose the true Christ. It chooses only a false Christ to its own liking. Paul says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, because it cannot understand them.

 

[justbyfaith]

and those who reject the message remain spiritually dead.

This would indicate that they do not become spiritually alive until they receive the message/believe.

 

[justbyfaith]

The flesh loves sin and hates God. It will never choose the true Christ. It chooses only a false Christ to its own liking. Paul says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, because it cannot understand them.

In that you are trying to say that a man cannot have faith until after he is born again; yet Romans 5:2 indicates that men are not born again until after they have faith. We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. You are saying we can be born again apart from the grace of the Lord, as a matter of fact.

Because if we are born again before we have faith, we are born again before we have access into grace, from the order of things.

God honours faith even if it comes from a heart that is imperfect; otherwise no one would be saved since every one of us has come short of the glory of God. He consecrates the offering of faith, sanctifying it when it touches the altar, which is seven times made holy by the blood.

 

[CoreIssue]

Knowledge results in belief which results in the leap of faith to repentance by the grace of God.

Romans 8. God foreknew who would love him and he predestined them all the way to glorification.

Love requires belief.

We all have freewill and if you do not want God will not seek God. You will cease hearing the Holy Spirit which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

If you don't listen to the Holy Spirit there is no hope for you.

Predestination results from a love, faith and grace. It does not cause love, faith and grace as Calvinists try to claim.

Which brings up the issue of why do Calvinists bother trying to persuade people if they have absolutely no say in the outcome.

 

[Enoch111]

Which brings up the issue of why do Calvinists bother trying to persuade people if they have absolutely no say in the outcome.

That's called One-Upmanship.

 

[Marymog]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil

This is kind of like "Which came first; the chicken or the egg".

Not all who don't believe will loose their salvation sooooo belief is not necessary for salvation.

My two cents worth....Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

That's called One-Upmanship.

Interesting thought.

 

[Taken]

Salvation (eternal life) is indeed the gift of God (Rom 6:23). But if saving faith were "a gift" then ALL would be saved, because God desires the salvation of all mankind. Do you see your dilemma?

No.
Belief is a mans freewill choice.
Faith is a gift from God from men who freely choose to Believe.

Men who believe, receive measures of faith.
Men who continue to beleive, receive more faith.
Men who stop believing, stop receiving faith and are called having fallen from faith.

Without a man receiving measures of faith, the man would never become prepared to commit to God.

Nothing in Scripture reveals a man receives faith without the man first freely choosing to believe.

1. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)

Sure. However a man who does not Believe, does not consider Gods commands.

2. God commands all men everywhere to believe on Christ (1 Jn 3:23)

True. Once the Knowledge of Jesus was revealed, man is responsible for that Knowledge.

Men can hear and read that Jesus is the Christ, however Scripture teaches that the Understanding that Jesus is the Christ, comes from God.

3. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4)

True.

4. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9)

True.

So if faith were a gift of God (as you claim) then all would be saved.

Disagree.

Gods gift of Grace, Forgiveness, Salvation, Quickening, Faith, His Spirit etc.... are Gifts He has For ALL men. It is His Will to Offer His Gifts to All men.
Fact is:
Not All men Shall Believe during their Natural Blood Life-time.
Not All men Accept His Gifts.

Eph 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The whole point of the preaching of the Gospel and the Great Commission is to generate faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

Agree with your point and would say; the Big picture is for a Converted man to speak the word of God that others might elect to hear and himself become enlightened and also follow along and freely choose Thee Lord God Almighty as his God above all others.

That is how faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:7)

But Universalism is false doctrine,

Agree.

since all will not believe.

Disagree. All WILL Believe.

Isa 45
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Some will Believe, Before their "Natural (blood) Death," and Be Saved and Quickened.

Many will be raised up on Judgement Day, Believe, Bow to the Lord, But Shall not be Saved.

John 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Not all who don't believe will loose their salvation sooooo belief is not necessary for salvation.

My two cents worth....Mary

Not True.

Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

No.
Belief is a mans freewill choice.
Faith is a gift from God from men who freely choose to Believe.

Men who believe, receive measures of faith.
Men who continue to beleive, receive more faith.
Men who stop believing, stop receiving faith and are called having fallen from faith.


Taken

The Bible speaks of people having their own faith and some having a special gift of stronger faith God.

 

[justbyfaith]

In that you are trying to say that a man cannot have faith until after he is born again; yet Romans 5:2 indicates that men are not born again until after they have faith. We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. You are saying we can be born again apart from the grace of the Lord, as a matter of fact.

Because if we are born again before we have faith, we are born again before we have access into grace, from the order of things.

God honours faith even if it comes from a heart that is imperfect; otherwise no one would be saved since every one of us has come short of the glory of God. He consecrates the offering of faith, sanctifying it when it touches the altar, which is seven times made holy by the blood.

It also comes back to the fact that being drawn by the Father to Christ is different from being given by the Father to Christ.

When a man is drawn, he is enabled to make an unhindered decision for or against Christ.

When he makes the decision for Christ, the Father gives that man to Jesus; and he is born again through faith.

It is as though Christ reached down His hand to pull the man out of a pit; and the man reached up to take hold of Christ's hand: and Christ pulled him out of the pit. He would have never been able to get out of the pit on his own; truly Christ is the One who saved him. But he had to be willing for Christ to save him; and to take the appropriate step of faith when Christ reached out to him.

 

[Enoch111]

No.
Belief is a mans freewill choice.
Faith is a gift from God from men who freely choose to Believe.

Since when have Christians started playing semantic games with the Gospel? FAITH = BELIEVING = BELIEF = FAITH.

 

[Dave L]

In that you are trying to say that a man cannot have faith until after he is born again; yet Romans 5:2 indicates that men are not born again until after they have faith. We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. You are saying we can be born again apart from the grace of the Lord, as a matter of fact.

Because if we are born again before we have faith, we are born again before we have access into grace, from the order of things.

God honours faith even if it comes from a heart that is imperfect; otherwise no one would be saved since every one of us has come short of the glory of God. He consecrates the offering of faith, sanctifying it when it touches the altar, which is seven times made holy by the blood.

You are reading into Romans 5:2 things it does not say.

“We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:2)

"Also" includes access into his grace by faith. It does not limit access to faith alone. Grace also grants the new birth making faith possible.

“And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:” (Acts 18:27)

 

[Dave L]

This would indicate that they do not become spiritually alive until they receive the message/believe.

This is true, but unless God grants the new birth, the word falls of deaf ears.

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Acts 16:14)