Ark of the Covenant in Heaven?

[PinSeeker]

So when John heard angels was that a vision also? When he heard and saw things? When he tried to bow before the guy talking to him? When he saw New Jerusalem!? The measurements of that city? The two witnesses being killed and lying in the street, etc etc etc?

The whole Revelation of John ~ it is called the revelation of John ~ is a vision. Hey, we've been talking about Revelation 11, but let's talk just for a second about, say, Revelation 12. We read:

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth." (Revelation 12:1-4)​

Now. Do you think that at some point in the past or future, there was or will be in heaven an actual pregnant woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars? I mean, how tall and fat will she be? And then, do you believe that an actual dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems will appear, and he will actually have a tail big enough and powerful enough to sweep away a third of the stars in the universe? Surely not. Surely not. Now, just so you can't accuse me of dismissing or waving away any of this, I do, most assuredly, believe that there is great truth to be understood here, that all these things are symbolic, metaphorical, of very real realities to come. But to believe this in an absolutely literal way is... well, quite ridiculous. And I would actually apply the same sort of thing to what John saw and wrote of in Revelation 11:19, just one verse prior to the passage in Revelation 12.

That is the millennium.

I agree! But in keeping with what I have just said and been saying, and with Revelation and all that it contains, while the millennium is a very real thing, it is not a literal 1000-year period, but rather the fullness of God's time in building His Israel, and it is past (since Pentecost), present, and future (until Jesus's return) rather that yet in the future only.

How does that relate to anything discussed here?

LOL! Give it a shot, dad. Give it a shot.

...or do you wave away the millennium also?

I am not aware that Israel knows Jesus from the least of them to the greatest now?

Ah yes, the misunderstanding of who Israel is ~ who God's true Israel really is and who true Jews really are... Consider:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Paul, Romans 2:28-29)​

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)​

Believers, yes.

LOL! Believers. Yes, I agree with that, but I think you missed the real question. Either that or you just totally avoided it... Do you actually believe people actually had (or have or will have) actual words actually engraved with a pen of iron with a point of diamond on their hearts, which will not actually be human organs but actual tablets of stone, or wood, or something? Really? Surely not. And this is Jeremiah's prophecy that we're talking about, and relating to John's Revelation, which is also prophecy, remember...

The context matters.

Absolutely it does, and that's quite the point I am making, at least one of them.

If the prophesy is about the time when Israel is saved...

Agreed! And you can relate that intensely with what Paul says here:

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)​

...that is not the same as prophesy found in Revelation.

Very much disagree.

False. The tribulation is a special seven year time at the end of the world. (the rule of man before Jesus returns to rule).

Well, again, I'm fine with just agreeing to disagree on this. We are in the tribulation period now, and very possibly close to the end of it, close to the day of Jesus's return. I'm fine with you saying that's false, but I believe your response to be every bit as false as you think my thinking to be.

As for a "great tribulation," I do believe that there will be a big ramping up of tribulation leading up to that day, a final crisis such as has never been seen. Having said that, I have always found it a bit funny that, though we all believe that, as Jesus said, no one knows or can know or predict the time of Christ's return, but yet, as dispensationalists would have it, when we have this "left behind" event where some portion of the people on earth disappear, those left will know that Christ's return will happen precisely seven years from then, so they will know the time. Does the oddity of that not strike you? Apparently not...

And... Christ's is reigning ~ from heaven ~ now. This is His millennial reign. He is our King. Now. When He returns, His eternal reign in the new heaven and new earth will begin.

It is clear there never was or will be a time like that.

Right. Agree. See above.

Period.

LOL!

Having troubles and trials and tests have nothing to do with the time of the wrath of God.

Agreed. I never insinuated such. God works all things together for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28), He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matthew 5:45), and He disciplines those whom He loves (Hebrews 12:6; Revelation 3:19).

...makes me think that there will not just be amazing mansions in heaven, but also probably some really great museums, memorials and places of remembrance.

LOL! Maybe so...

The ark is a treasure of heaven, not the USA, so it will not be anywhere in the piles of dusty rubbish there.

Jesus is the true Treasure, my friend. Christ Jesus is the one in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3).

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

 

[dad]

<eye roll> A total miss of the purpose that the ark served in the days of the ancient Israelites... and that it serves for us today. The object lesson that is was, and is. For all of Israel, which is a people, both then and now.

The lesson of an ark that is 'lost' is not that anything is with us! If the ark is in heaven then there are lots of lessons, such as that God is real and took it there.

The whole dispensational understanding of Scripture and what will unfold at the end of the age is very wrong.

You have an opinion. The prophesies of what will unfold are clear as a bell though. The trick is believing them.

But you know, a) it's not a salvific thing ~ not essential to our salvation ~ and b) it will unfold as God has said, two things that I'm sure we will agree on, so I think we can both live with and be okay with that difference of opinion.

I can defend my opinion. Big difference apparently.

The crux of what I have said is that John's Revelation has been taken out of its whole context.

The context is revealing Jesus. The things that were and will be.

Going to parse this out:

"It is OK, especially if you could provide evidence and or bible support... I would also ask for a reason why you claimed it was not in heaven."

Well, a) I did, and b) what good would it do to explain anything to anybody if, in their intransigence, they refuse to listen?​

You should be able to offer an opinion and support for it. I have not seen that yet.

"However, I would also ask for an explanation as to why God would allow the ark to be abused by man, when the Old Testament made it clear He did not."

I have never suggested such a thing, nor would I.​

Anyone that thinks it is lost or they do not know where it is basically does just that.

 

[dad]

Now. Do you think that at some point in the past or future, there was or will be in heaven an actual pregnant woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars?

Can we rule it out? Why?

I mean, how tall and fat will she be?

Since she bore Jesus, I don't think 'will she be' fits. When things are pictured there is a reason. Nor is having some symbols an excuse to wave away the rest of the bible or book. An angel is an angel for example. A city with walls is a city with wall, etc. If Israel is pictured as a woman, there is still Israel, and still the child she bore. Maybe Mary represented her to some extent. We should do less waving and more believing.

And then, do you believe that an actual dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems will appear, and he will actually have a tail big enough and powerful enough to sweep away a third of the stars in the universe?

I believe God casts Satan to this earth with a third of the angels who rebelled. I also know there are reasons God compares spirits to stars. I also know that the idea science has about the universe and nature of stars is wrong!

I agree! But in keeping with what I have just said and been saying, and with Revelation and all that it contains, while the millennium is a very real thing, it is not a literal 1000-year period, but rather the fullness of God's time in building His Israel, and it is past (since Pentecost), present, and future (until Jesus's return) rather that yet in the future only.

So who decides on what is literal? If we are told it was the Lord's day does that mean it was really night? If we are told the city was gold does this mean it was really tin?

Ah yes, the misunderstanding of who Israel is ~ who God's true Israel really is and who true Jews really are... Consider:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Paul, Romans 2:28-29)​

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)​

I am not a Jew outwardly. So does that apply to me? Is that not talking to Jews and pointing out that they are not really part of Israel unless they believe also? Why would I take that as some total redefinition of Israel or Jews?

Do you actually believe people actually had (or have or will have) actual words actually engraved with a pen of iron with a point of diamond on their hearts, which will not actually be human organs but actual tablets of stone, or wood, or something?

I think the meaning is clear. The kingdom of heaven is within us. God deals with the hearts. You cannot run around the bible grasping at symbolism straws as some excuse to take away from the reality of the bible. If it can be taken literally why not do so? The ark is in the temple in heaven. You can't wave it away.

Agreed! And you can relate that intensely with what Paul says here:

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)​

The fullness is not come in yet. Israel gets saved near the end of the tribulation.

We are in the tribulation period now, and very possibly close to the end of it, close to the day of Jesus's return.

That is ridiculous. Has the waters been turned to blood, and something like half of mankind died, and has the two witnesses come yet, and the man of sin, and the flase prophet, and the covenant that is broken and etc etc etc etc? No possible way.

no one knows or can know or predict the time of Christ's return, but yet, as dispensationalists would have it, when we have this "left behind" event where some portion of the people on earth disappear, those left will know that Christ's return will happen precisely seven years from then, so they will know the time. Does the oddity of that not strike you? Apparently not...

Then you can predict it! The coming as a thief that no one knows is Jesus coming for us before the wrath.

And... Christ's is reigning ~ from heaven ~ now.

No. Putin and Biden and Trudeau etc are ruling. They are doing all they can against God and heaven and the bible. There is no peace on earth and a restored Israel, and Jesus and us ruling with a rod of iron!

 

[PinSeeker]

The lesson of an ark that is 'lost' is not that anything is with us! If the ark is in heaven then there are lots of lessons, such as that God is real and took it there.

You know, quite frankly, I'm not even sure what to make of this statement. It's a bit of a head-scratcher... The lessons in which the ark appears or is spoken of were always the same and always will be, no matter where the ark is now or even if it no longer exists.

If the ark is in heaven, then, cool. But I don't believe it is, and I don't believe Revelation 11:19 indicates that it is physically there, but something quite different, namely, that there is a spiritual Holy of Holies now, and our Great High Priest, Christ Jesus, is there, interceding on our behalf to the Father.

You have an opinion.

As do you.

The prophesies of what will unfold are clear as a bell though.

Absolutely. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ.

The trick is believing them.

There is no trick.

I can defend my opinion.

Okay, well I can, too, and have. Your mind is your own; I cannot change it for you. And you would say the same to me, and that's all well and good. I will ask again, though, what I asked in my previous post about the difference between what you apparently do with Revelation 11:19 versus what you do with the next four verses, Revelation 12:1-4. Again, regarding Revelation 12:1-4:

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth." (Revelation 12:1-4)​

Do you think that at some point in the past or future, there was or will be in heaven an actual pregnant woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars? If so, then how tall and fat will she be? And then, do you believe that an actual dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems will appear, and he will actually have a tail big enough and powerful enough to sweep away a third of the stars in the universe? So again I say, surely not. Surely not. And just so you can't accuse me of dismissing or waving away any of this, I do, most assuredly, believe that there is great truth to be understood here, that all these things are symbolic, metaphorical, of very real realities to come. But to believe this in an absolutely literal way is... well, quite ridiculous. And I would actually apply the same sort of thing to what John saw and wrote of in Revelation 11:19, just one verse prior to the passage in Revelation 12. Tell me why you apparently do. I would like to hear you speak to that, but don't feel obligated. But, if you can defend your opinion, then please do.

And I see you're not touching what I said above regarding Israel, either. Or maybe you are composing... I'd like to hear that, too.

The context is revealing Jesus.

Agree.

The things that were and will be.

Sure; well, were, and are, and will be. Sure.

You should be able to offer an opinion and support for it.

I have. Look back through the conversation. If you want. It's there.

I have not seen that yet.

You have a very selective ~ unselective? ~ memory, apparently. Look back through what I have said if you want. Or not; you're your own person, certainly.

Anyone that thinks it is lost or they do not know where it is basically does just that.

Okay, well again, I never suggested ~ and don't think in any way ~ that God would allow or did allow the ark to be abused by man. I have no idea why you're even saying that. But I do say anybody who thinks there's a hard object of any inorganic nature in heaven (or on earth, or in the earth, or anywhere in the universe) that we should worship needs to do some rethinking. Now, whether you do that or not I don't know, but if you do, then stop it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[face2face]

The book of Revelation talks of the ark in heaven. If that is where it is, why is there so much talk about finding it and where it is?
Could claims that the ark was not in Herod's temple be fake news?
Seems like a lot of room for discussion

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

(image from Can archaeologists find the Ark of the Covenant? )

The ark comprised the Mercy Seat and Cherubim (as per your picture), and above the first and between the second, the glory of Yahweh was seen. Christ is the Mercy Seat or Propitiation (Romans 3:25), and the Redeemed comprise the Cherubim (Revelation 4:7).

It's a vision of the coming age when the glory of Yahweh will be revealed in the Christ community (Acts of the Apostles 15:14; Revelation 3:12)

This vision here is showing the fulfillment of the covenant, whilst, at the same time offering mercy to humanity through the offering of Christ.

Beautiful really.

Also, you should know this is not speaking of literal Heaven "the heaven," is the place of authority, the government of the coming age (Revelation 4:1)

F2F

 

[dad]

You know, quite frankly, I'm not even sure what to make of this statement. It's a bit of a head-scratcher... The lessons in which the ark appears or is spoken of were always the same and always will be, no matter where the ark is now or even if it no longer exists.

The lessons for very ancient times, yes. How about up to date lessons? For example if God took the ark to heaven the same time He cliced that veil from top to bottom, is there not a lesson in the power of God in that? Is the removal of what symbolized His presence behind that veil not a great lesson?

If the ark is in heaven, then, cool. But I don't believe it is, and I don't believe Revelation 11:19 indicates that it is physically there, but something quite different, namely, that there is a spiritual Holy of Holies now, and our Great High Priest, Christ Jesus, is there, interceding on our behalf to the Father.

Let's look at the verse and see if there is any indication that that ark was not really there.

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Is the temple really there? Is heaven really there? were there really lightenings? voices? earthquake? Hail? Who are you to say any of those things were not very real and happening?

Do you think that at some point in the past or future, there was or will be in heaven an actual pregnant woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars?

The two witnesses are called two olive trees and that seems to refer to an old testament passage where olive trees were having oil from them feed into a candlestick. Zec 4
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

So the trees represented two people. The oil represents God's spirit. So when God talks about His two olive trees, it is talking about real people and spiritual realities regarding them as well.

And then, do you believe that an actual dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems will appear, and he will actually have a tail big enough and powerful enough to sweep away a third of the stars in the universe?

Yes the actual dragon is Satan. That is another title for him. He did have seven heads on earth through whom he ruled. Stars are associated with spirits. So the spiritual realities do not take away from the reality of Satan falling to earth from the heaven with his angels. In fact they add to it.

And just so you can't accuse me of dismissing or waving away any of this, I do, most assuredly, believe that there is great truth to be understood here, that all these things are symbolic, metaphorical, of very real realities to come. But to believe this in an absolutely literal way is... well, quite ridiculous.

On the contrary. Satan really will be cast to this earth soon. I am attaching a picture to help you get the idea

Just because he is also called the serpent and the dragon does not change anything about the reality.

I have. Look back through the conversation. If you want. It's there.

Hold on, I'll go grab my microscope.

You have a very selective ~ unselective? ~ memory, apparently. Look back through what I have said if you want. Or not; you're your own person, certainly.

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Okay, well again, I never suggested ~ and don't think in any way ~ that God would allow or did allow the ark to be abused by man. I have no idea why you're even saying that.

If the ark was, for example being hid away ready to be revealed one day to be used in Jewish rituals, that would be abuse since He is not present for that at all. The people who took the ark in the old testament abused it by putting it in a place with their false gods. (remember how they found the god cut in pieces and bowing face down before the ark in the morning?)

But I do say anybody who thinks there's a hard object of any inorganic nature in heaven (or on earth, or in the earth, or anywhere in the universe) that we should worship needs to do some rethinking.

Why make up silly things? Why would anyone worship a box?

You do realize Jesus was both physical and spiritual when He rose from the dead? You do know there are mansions and trees and a river etc etc etc in heaven? Did you think all that was unreal also?

 

[dad]

The ark comprised the Mercy Seat and Cherubim (as per your picture), and above the first and between the second, the glory of Yahweh was seen. Christ is the Mercy Seat or Propitiation (Romans 3:25), and the Redeemed comprise the Cherubim (Revelation 4:7).

The angels were representations of angels. Not redeemed people actually. Jesus did have mercy but was not a seat!

It's a vision of the coming age when the glory of Yahweh will be revealed in the Christ community (Acts of the Apostles 15:14; Revelation 3:12)

Every eye will see Him actually. Not some 'Christ community'!

This vision here is showing the fulfillment of the covenant, whilst, at the same time offering mercy to humanity through the offering of Christ.

It says no such thing though. Have a look. Do show us where it says any such thing?

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The picture is of a temple opening and us seeing the ark of the covenant was IN it.

Also, you should know this is not speaking of literal Heaven "the heaven," is the place of authority, the government of the coming age (Revelation 4:1)

Having fun making stuff up whole of cloth?

 

[PinSeeker]

Can we rule it out?

LOL!!!! I think ~ my opinion is, dad ~ that we can safely rule out that there was, is, or ever will be anywhere an actual pregnant woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. But Revelation 12 clearly says that, so we have to do something with it, right? LOL!!! My goodness.

Why?

I've been very clear as to why.

Since she bore Jesus, I don't think 'will she be' fits.

Why not? It's clearly a pregnant woman in Revelation 12. Are you waving it away?

Or... are you saying we're seeing symbols and metaphors, there? You are, right? So ~ and remember, there are really no chapters or verses in any book in God's Word ~ the question I'm really asking you, dad, is, why is John speaking strictly literally in one sentence (Revelation 11:19), and strictly symbolically/metaphorically in the very next (Revelation 12:1)? Why? I say what John saw, dad, doesn't completely change contexts or genres from one sentence to the next, and that to suppose he does is a perfectly ridiculous assertion to make, but yet that's exactly what you seem to be doing.

When things are pictured there is a reason.

Agreed. Certainly.

Nor is having some symbols an excuse to wave away the rest of the bible or book.

Again with the "waving away" crap. I'm not "waving away" anything. But that seems to be what you're doing here. That's exactly the immediate point. Or, if not waving away, you're saying that John's narrative completely changes from one sentence to the next. It's all you.

We should do less waving and more believing.

That's... exactly what I'm saying...

I believe God casts Satan to this earth with a third of the angels who rebelled.

Well, this is rhetorical, but... so you're saying Satan is actually a dragon? Because Revelation clearly says "dragon," and it's the dragon's tail that sweeps away a third of the stars, not angels... So again, you're saying that what John says in Revelation 11:19 is absolutely literal, but what he then says in the next four verses is absolutely symbolic and/or metaphorical. The inconsistency is astounding, my friend. Quite astounding.

So who decides on what is literal?

Yes, that's exactly my question to you.

If we are told it was the Lord's day does that mean it was really night?

Well, we know that to God, even the night is as noonday, as David tells us in Psalm 139... LOL! I'm being a little facetious here. This question is kind of a silly one. But, well, isn't it really still the Lord's Day (not sure whether you believe that to be Saturday or Sunday, but no matter), then I say it doesn't really matter what time it is or where the sun is...

If we are told the city was gold does this mean it was really tin?

Ah, the city of gold. Yes, we could talk about that...

I am not a Jew outwardly. So does that apply to me?

If you're born again of the Spirit and God has made you His in Christ Jesus, yes. I'm a bit surprised to have to actually say that...

Is that not talking to Jews and pointing out that they are not really part of Israel unless they believe also?

Well, it's applicable to ethnic Jews in the same manner as what this same Paul later says a few chapters later in Romans 9, namely:

"...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:6-8)​

Why would I take that as some total redefinition of Israel or Jews?

Paul is correcting the notion of who God's Israel and true Jews are, the notion you still obviously hold to. He goes on to say the following (cited before):

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26)​

I think the meaning is clear.

Yes, it absolutely is.

The kingdom of heaven is within us.

Right now, yes. But when Jesus comes back, it will be here in its fullness.

God deals with the hearts.

Sure! Sure.

You cannot run around the bible grasping at symbolism straws as some excuse to take away from the reality of the bible.

I'm doing no such thing. But neither can we take symbolism and make it something it is not.

If it can be taken literally why not do so?

I... thought you said context matters... If you still say that, I agree. But context doesn't change from one sentence to the next on a whim. You agree with that, I'm sure, but yet you still do it. Stop it.

The ark is in the temple in heaven.

Nope. But we'll agree to disagree.

You can't wave it away.

Pfffft. Nobody's waving anything away...

The fullness is not come in yet.

The fullness ~ total number ~ of Gentiles has not been brought into Israel yet. I agree.

Israel gets saved near the end of the tribulation.

Well, Israel is in the process of being saved now, the fullness of the Gentiles being brought in now, and then the removal of the partial hardening ~ on the ethnic Jews who are part of God's Israel (because not all are). This is how all of Israel will be saved.

That is ridiculous.

Well, you think so, sure; that's your opinion. And mine is that the tribulation period now, and we are very possibly close to the end of it, close to the day of Jesus's return. Neither opinion is ridiculous," but because both opinions cannot be true at the same time, one ~ or possibly both ~ is wrong. So, you think it's mine that's wrong. I'm fine with that, and think it's yours that's wrong. Neither one of us is alone in our opinion.

...the tribulation Has the waters been turned to blood, and something like half of mankind died, and has the two witnesses come yet, and the man of sin, and the false prophet, and the covenant that is broken and etc etc etc etc?

And we're back to literalism again. See? Back and forth and back and forth and back and forth again. That's you, my friend... well, dispensationalism. God is not a flip-flopper.

Then you can predict it!

Well no, that's opposite what Jesus says. But still, in the dispensational scheme of things, you can. And that's a problem, an irreconcilable problem. That's my point, there.

No. Putin and Biden and Trudeau etc are ruling. They are doing all they can against God and heaven and the bible. There is no peace on earth and a restored Israel, and Jesus and us ruling with a rod of iron!

Oh my goodness. Wow. I believe Jesus says Satan is right now the ruler of this world...

Grace and peace to you, man.

 

[PinSeeker]

The lessons for very ancient times, yes.

And today. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Even today. Are you waving that away, dad? Because it sure seems like it.

Let's look at the verse and see if there is any indication that that ark was not really there.

Well, nobody is arguing that in John's vision, it's there.

Now, I am going to wave away at least most of your commentary on Revelation 11. But that's just your commentary, and not Revelation 11 itself.

Yes the actual dragon is Satan.

LOL! Let me rephrase. Yes, Satan is represented in John's narrative there as a dragon. But is it your belief that Satan is literally a dragon? Does he actually, literally look like this?

He did have seven heads on earth through whom he ruled. Stars are associated with spirits.

You're... flip-flopping again...

So the spiritual realities do not take away from the reality of Satan falling to earth from the heaven with his angels.

I agree. But you're totally avoiding the point, dad. And you know it.

Just because he is also called the serpent and the dragon does not change anything about the reality.

Sure. Absolutely. I never did and never will insinuate such.

Hold on, I'll go grab my microscope.

Nah, all you need is some modicum of memory. It was short, though, because that was all that was needed.

post #?

As I remember it, dad, you are here asking for the post number where I said Revelation 11:19 is not in a completely different context than Revelation 12:1-4. Well, I've done that in several ways now over the last few posts, this one included. It's actually on you to prove why it is completely different... why God is a flip-flopper. Good luck...

If the ark was, for example being hid away ready to be revealed one day to be used in Jewish rituals, that would be abuse since He is not present for that at all. The people who took the ark in the old testament abused it by putting it in a place with their false gods. (remember how they found the god cut in pieces and bowing face down before the ark in the morning?)

Ugh. Okay, man. Okay.

You do realize Jesus was both physical and spiritual when He rose from the dead?

Sure. Do you think He was not spiritual before His crucifixion and resurrection? Surely you do. Surely. Right?

And do you think that we, having been born again of the Spirit, are both physically and spiritually alive? Surely you do. Surely. Right?

You do know there are mansions and trees and a river etc etc etc in heaven?

Sure. Well, in the new heaven and new earth. Right? Now, this river... I think there will be many rivers in the new heaven and new earth. Don't you?

Did you think all that was unreal also?

Well, no, there will surely be real things in the new heaven and new earth. God says, "Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5). He does not say "I am making all new things."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

LOL!!!! I think ~ my opinion is, dad ~ that we can safely rule out that there was, is, or ever will be anywhere an actual pregnant woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. But Revelation 12 clearly says that, so we have to do something with it, right? LOL!!! My goodness.

The men called the two olive trees are not trees. So if the woman is Israel, she is not a woman. Yet when Mary (who is now in heaven of course) had Jesus she was bathed or clothed in His spirit. He is referred to as the sun as well. But at the same time she was part of Israel, who seems to be the woman talked about here. The apostles were part of that woman as well, and it was believers, led by them, that did wear the kingdom crown! We are the Bride of Christ now. The devil did try to kill Jesus (remember Herod?) after He was born. So I am not sure what you think you are reading here, but it all fits like a glove as far as I can see! So yes there are two witnesses who are men, and yes they are the two olive trees as well. And yes there is the woman Israel from whom Jesus was born. Try to let the spiritual realities add to your understanding here, rather than render it all to be fantasy or mere symbolism. For every symbol there is a reality.

Or... are you saying we're seeing symbols and metaphors, there?

The example of the two witnesses show it is not symbolism, but descriptions of men by God!

why is John speaking strictly literally in one sentence (Revelation 11:19), and strictly symbolically/metaphorically in the very next (Revelation 12:1)?

As shown it is not as strict as you thought! Also, sometimes it does not have to be on OR the other, but both. So using the two witnesses example again, they really are the two olive trees because they bring the oil of His spirit to the world of man. Yet they are actually men as real as real could ever be.

Or, if not waving away, you're saying that John's narrative completely changes from one sentence to the next. It's all you.

Not at all. Adding the spiritual components is not changing things. It is adding light to things.

Well, this is rhetorical, but... so you're saying Satan is actually a dragon?

That is one of his titles. So is raging lion, and serpent, accuser of the saints etc. Each of these titles shed light on the nature of the beast! The actual form need no be a lion or etc.

Because Revelation clearly says "dragon," and it's the dragon's tail that sweeps away a third of the stars, not angels... So again, you're saying that what John says in Revelation 11:19 is absolutely literal, but what he then says in the next four verses is absolutely symbolic and/or metaphorical. The inconsistency is astounding, my friend. Quite astounding.

How about, I don't know? That works. How I see it is that Satan corrupted a third of the angels and many are up there now still in space. (not the third heaven of heavens where God lives) God will send them all to earth for a while in the end. Now it is somewhat mysterious how a connection to stars is also there, but I have zero doubt that the connection somehow exists! But that is a thread in itself. Perhaps some stars are influenced or associated with spirits. Orion and Pleiades for example in Job seem to be that way. How could stars have 'influences'? Another interesting fact is that science has it all wrong as to what stars are and how far away and how big etc. But as I say that is another thread.

Well, we know that to God, even the night is as noonday, as David tells us in Psalm 139... LOL! I'm being a little facetious here. This question is kind of a silly one. But, well, isn't it really still the Lord's Day (not sure whether you believe that to be Saturday or Sunday, but no matter), then I say it doesn't really matter what time it is or where the sun is...

Yet the Sabbath day in Israel was on a certain day only. The Lord's day in the early church was also a certain day. We can't wave it away.

Ah, the city of gold. Yes, we could talk about that...

What's to talk about? (don't tell us you wave that away?)

Well, it's applicable to ethnic Jews in the same manner as what this same Paul later says a few chapters later in Romans 9, namely:

"...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:6-8)​

Paul is correcting the notion of who God's Israel and true Jews are, the notion you still obviously hold to. He goes on to say the following (cited before):

The children or people that believe in Jesus in other words.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26)​

Yes, it absolutely is.


Right now, yes. But when Jesus comes back, it will be here in its fullness.

It is only then that all Israel gets saved.

But neither can we take symbolism and make it something it is not.

It is not one or the other it is both together making a fuller picture.

But context doesn't change from one sentence to the next on a whim.

Hopefully sentences string together to give context.

The fullness ~ total number ~ of Gentiles has not been brought into Israel yet. I agree.

OK, and when it is then they all get saved.

Well, Israel is in the process of being saved now, the fullness of the Gentiles being brought in now, and then the removal of the partial hardening ~ on the ethnic Jews who are part of God's Israel (because not all are). This is how all of Israel will be saved.

Right. Yet when all Israel is saved refers to a special time in the end. The remnant who are still alive finally believe.

And mine is that the tribulation period now, and we are very possibly close to the end of it, close to the day of Jesus's return.

We cannot be near the end of it since the abomination of desolation is not set up, starting the month and day count. Neither are we at the start of it since we are not appointed to wrath, period.

And we're back to literalism again. See? Back and forth and back and forth and back and forth again. That's you, my friend... well, dispensationalism. God is not a flip-flopper.

I am not all that familiar with the technical terms. However I think you mean special ages for various things to happen. Of course there are various stages and ages. The new earth for example is not the pre flood era. The millennium is not the time of the early church. Etc

Oh my goodness. Wow. I believe Jesus says Satan is right now the ruler of this world...

Me too. However he does not live here yet.

 

[dad]

And today. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Even today. Are you waving that away, dad? Because it sure seems like it.

Yes, but the ark is not here today. No one is telling me to carry the ark to Jerusalem.

LOL! Let me rephrase. Yes, Satan is represented in John's narrative there as a dragon. But is it your belief that Satan is literally a dragon?

Covered in last post

Nah, all you need is some modicum of memory. It was short, though, because that was all that was needed.

Show the post # you think we forgot.

As I remember it, dad, you are here asking for the post number where I said Revelation 11:19 is not in a completely different context than Revelation 12:1-4.

What chapters are supposed to be the same? Explain why a same or different context is relevant there?

Sure. Do you think He was not spiritual before His crucifixion and resurrection? Surely you do. Surely. Right?

You think you can nail a ghost to a tree? He was a man. When He arose He had an eternal body that was both physical and spiritual. He could walk through walls if He wanted or eat.

And do you think that we, having been born again of the Spirit, are both physically and spiritually alive? Surely you do. Surely. Right?

Sure. Well, in the new heaven and new earth. Right? Now, this river... I think there will be many rivers in the new heaven and new earth. Don't you?

The example was the river of water of life with trees on the banks.

Well, no, there will surely be real things in the new heaven and new earth. God says, "Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5). He does not say "I am making all new things."

One of those things is His ark!

 

[Brakelite]

suspect that having Jesus covers all that is needed in heaven.

Didn't work for Lucifer though did it.

That was the idea. Not some impossible to keep insane works trip.

Surely we aren't going down that road again are we? Didn't Jesus come to demonstrate that it was possible?

They showed man that he fell short of the glory of God and needed Jesus.

indeed, but what do we need Jesus for,?

 

[face2face]

The angels were representations of angels. Not redeemed people actually. Jesus did have mercy but was not a seat!
Every eye will see Him actually. Not some 'Christ community'!

It says no such thing though. Have a look. Do show us where it says any such thing?

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The picture is of a temple opening and us seeing the ark of the covenant was IN it.

Having fun making stuff up whole of cloth?

It's clear form the above the words mercy seat are not known to you.
Would you like it explained?

 

[face2face]

The angels were representations of angels. Not redeemed people actually. Jesus did have mercy but was not a seat!

If you can't see the symbology of the redeemed what can one do for you?

Every eye will see Him actually. Not some 'Christ community'!

This just proves you didn't read my post correctly.
I said the Glory of God would be revealed in the Christ community -
1. Nothing was said about who would see who!
2. I fear for you if you believe God's glory would be revealed in unbelievers
Your post is just a waste of my time and it's frustrating when people don't read carefully.

It says no such thing though. Have a look. Do show us where it says any such thing?

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The picture is of a temple opening and us seeing the ark of the covenant was IN it.

Having fun making stuff up whole of cloth?

I can already tell from your responses a level of ignorance and unwillingness to learn and this is our first interaction!

Explain what the symbology of "And there were lightnings, and voices, and thundering's, and an earthquake and great hail?

Firstly, if you come back with some literal meaning this will be our last communication that's for sure...if you think it hails in Heaven, I am out of here!

Let's hope you can be led into truth and not the crazy nonsense which goes on in this forum.

I will followup on explaining what the mercy seat means shortly.

F2F

 

[face2face]

This post concerning the Mercy Seat may well be for all members to consider.

Leviticus 16:2

Yahweh would appear in a luminous cloud upon the Mercy Seat - i.e His Divine presence was there as per Exodus 25:22, Exodus 40:34-35.

Now you ( @dad ) are saying that Christ is not the Mercy Seat, which in affect you are saying Yahweh's Glory did not rest upon Christ. I know right

Psalms 80:1 speaks to Yahweh shinning forth from between the wings of the Cherub - he did so through His Son.
Numbers 6:24-25 His face shine upon us...again through His Son as per 2 Corinthians 4:6

Now when you come to Leviticus 16:13 can you see what is happening there?

The censer full of burning coals of fire was taken within (the Most Holy Place on this occasion, and the incense there fed to it. The result was a cloud of smoke that veiled the cloud of divine Glory above the Mercy Seat, the throne of Yahweh in Israel.

Can you see two clouds being spoken of here?

1 of Man
2. of God

You have a cloud of human fragrance mingled itself with the cloud of divine Glory ( Explained beautifully and shown here in principle through Christ - John 12:27-28; John 17:4-5).

Then you come to Leviticus 16:14 where it all starts to happen!

The mercy seat was treated as an altar in addition to the brazen and golden altars. That altar, the holiest of the three, was found in the Most Holy, the place where Christ our altar today is located as per Hebrews 13:20 & Hebrews 9:24.

As an altar, the mercy seat was most significant. It contained the tables of the covenant, the golden pot of manna, and the almond branch that
flourished. I wont go into their symbology though accept that each of these also have fulfillment in Jesus Christ! Should be extremely obvious for any Christian to explain how Jesus is the manna, the covenant and the almond branch.

So how do we know for sure that Christ is the Mercy Seat.

The ground in front of the mercy seat represented the way into the most holy. Today we call it "the way" as per Genesis 18:19 Psalms 25:9; Isaiah 35:8; Acts of the Apostles 9:2; Acts of the Apostles 19:9, Acts of the Apostles 19:25 Acts of the Apostles 22:4 etc.) the same term as is used by the Apostle to describe this entrance into the Most Holy by the High Priest. He contrasts it with "the way" made open to believers by the offering of the Lord: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

The High Priest's entered the Most Holy by a dead sacrifice; we enter today by a living sacrifice!

The sprinkling of the blood on the Mercy Seat straight away speaks of Christ

"Shall he sprinkle of the blood"

The Mercy Seat is in symbol the way to salvation as per Acts of the Apostles 16:17 is a way of sacrifice and dedication, such as was tokened by the blood. Hence Paul taught: "Without the shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). In other words, without a person giving his life in dedicated service to the Father (for Christ's offering is representative, not substitutionary!!!!), there is for him no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).

So today you have Christ the Mercy Seat sitting at the right hand of the Father on High so Revelation 11:19....the ark comprised of the Mercy Seat (Christ) and Cherubim (mighty host innumerable) , and above the first and between the second, the glory of Yahweh was seen. Christ is the Mercy Seat

So Revelation 11:19 is a view of Romans 3:25 which will be on earth as a divine government ruling over Israel and the nations. The visions is Christ the Mercy Seat and all the Saints in glory.

God presented him as the *mercy seat by his blood, through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

*a place of atonement (the anti type of the mercy seat!)

So in conclusion, Jesus is "the" mercy seat and there is no other!

F2F

 

[face2face]

So Revelation 11:19 is a vision for those people who were suffering during the time period which Revelation 11 is set.

These words would have immediately given them encouragement knowing that when Christ returns the saints will be united to him, which is represented in the Cherubim (saints) and Mercy Seat (Christ) and will form the whole complete body of Christ. See Zechariah 14:9. The numerous Body of Christ will be likened to a Temple as per 2 Corinthians 6:16, i.e. Most Holy.

What's also interesting about the vision of Revelation 11:19 is how the Most Holy speaks to Divine nature as per Hebrews 10:20 which will then be granted the Redeemed (2 Peter 1:4) after the resurrection and judgement.

Jesus Christ being the firstfruits of them that slept and the first born from the dead - the first man to receive immortality! First man to be able to walk through the curtain with his own blood as a means of accessing the Holy of Hollies in Heaven itself!

There is a tremendous amount of detail in Revelation 11:19 which can easily be overlooked if you dont see the imagery being conveyed.

F2F

 

[dad]

Didn't work for Lucifer though did it.

You think heaven is not good then?

Surely we aren't going down that road again are we? Didn't Jesus come to demonstrate that it was possible?
indeed, but what do we need Jesus for,?

Jesus came to give us life, the law brought death. This is news? I would think that remembering the ten commandments in heaven is not some endless struggle to try to keep them. They are probably just the normal course of life there and ways we live having eternal life with Jesus. The struggle was back on earth when man could not keep them, and they showed that man fell short. They showed man needed God to save them because he could not do it alone at all.

 

[dad]

It's clear form the above the words mercy seat are not known to you.
Would you like it explained?

The rituals represented in the box were for our benefit. Jesus is a real Person, and the ark is just an object.

 

[dad]

If you can't see the symbology of the redeemed what can one do for you?

Symbols do not take away from the reality they add to it. If God says the ark was in a temple, then in the temple it was.

This just proves you didn't read my post correctly.
I said the Glory of God would be revealed in the Christ community -
1. Nothing was said about who would see who!

Every eye will see Him when He returns. All communities. Have you some point?

2. I fear for you if you believe God's glory would be revealed in unbelievers

He will be seen by all. Did you think they would not realize He was glorious?

I can already tell from your responses a level of ignorance and unwillingness to learn and this is our first interaction!

Don't project.

Explain what the symbology of "And there were lightnings, and voices, and thundering's, and an earthquake and great hail?

Firstly, if you come back with some literal meaning this will be our last communication that's for sure...if you think it hails in Heaven, I am out of here!

? Why would hail not be able to exist there? It did not say all the poor citizens of New Jerusalem were mercilessly pelted with giant hail stones! Now maybe we would think that this means on earth, after the angels come out of the temple or etc. There certainly will be that sort of thing on earth in the tribulation. However looking at the scene, it is in heaven. The temple is where? In heaven. The ark was where? In heaven. The angels came out of a temple in heaven. I think that the seriousness of what was starting to happen was amazing. Not something usual. Like a light show with smoke and thunder on a stage on earth somewhat, to show the effect.

The ark is in heaven.
Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So we might discuss where the earthquake and etc were, but the temple was in heaven and the ark was in the temple!

 

[dad]

This post concerning the Mercy Seat may well be for all members to consider.

Leviticus 16:2

Yahweh would appear in a luminous cloud upon the Mercy Seat - i.e His Divine presence was there as per Exodus 25:22, Exodus 40:34-35.

Now you ( @dad ) are saying that Christ is not the Mercy Seat, which in affect you are saying Yahweh's Glory did not rest upon Christ. I know right

Yes at that time He appeared UPON the mercy seat. That is news? That does not mean that the wooden box that had a mercy seat was God.

Now when you come to Leviticus 16:13 can you see what is happening there?

The censer full of burning coals of fire was taken within (the Most Holy Place on this occasion, and the incense there fed to it. The result was a cloud of smoke that veiled the cloud of divine Glory above the Mercy Seat, the throne of Yahweh in Israel.

Right, God's presence was there. Later, when the ark was behind the veil in the holy of holies, there was not usually such a cloud. What is your point? Of course God led Israel in the wilderness. Of course the ark symbolized His very presence. The issue in the thread here is not that. The issue is where is that wooden box now?

The mercy seat was treated as an altar in addition to the brazen and golden altars. That altar, the holiest of the three, was found in the Most Holy, the place where Christ our altar today is located as per Hebrews 13:20 & Hebrews 9:24.

Right, and what has that got to do with anything in the thread? If the ark was not holy why would God have preserved it in heaven? The ark is not God!

As an altar, the mercy seat was most significant. It contained the tables of the covenant, the golden pot of manna, and the almond branch that
flourished. I wont go into their symbology though accept that each of these also have fulfillment in Jesus Christ! Should be extremely obvious for any Christian to explain how Jesus is the manna, the covenant and the almond branch.

Obviously. That stuff represented things. Shadows of the true and what was to come.

So how do we know for sure that Christ is the Mercy Seat.

He is no more a wooden seat than He is a bicycle. The box represented Him and His truths. The box and it's parts were not Him.

The ground in front of the mercy seat represented the way into the most holy. Today we call it "the way" as per Genesis 18:19 Psalms 25:9; Isaiah 35:8; Acts of the Apostles 9:2; Acts of the Apostles 19:9, Acts of the Apostles 19:25 Acts of the Apostles 22:4 etc.) the same term as is used by the Apostle to describe this entrance into the Most Holy by the High Priest. He contrasts it with "the way" made open to believers by the offering of the Lord: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

Interesting point. Jesus is that way. That does not mean Jesus is a little path on the floor of course any more than that He is a box.

The High Priest's entered the Most Holy by a dead sacrifice; we enter today by a living sacrifice!

The sprinkling of the blood on the Mercy Seat straight away speaks of Christ

Of course it speaks about Jesus. That does not mean Jesus is a part of a wooden box.

"Shall he sprinkle of the blood"

The Mercy Seat is in symbol the way to salvation as per Acts of the Apostles 16:17 is a way of sacrifice and dedication, such as was tokened by the blood. Hence Paul taught: "Without the shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). In other words, without a person giving his life in dedicated service to the Father (for Christ's offering is representative, not substitutionary!!!!), there is for him no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).

The ark was full of meaning, but it was still a little wooden box! That box's location is the subject of the thread.
So where do you think it is?

So today you have Christ the Mercy Seat sitting at the right hand of the Father on High so Revelation 11:19....the ark comprised of the Mercy Seat (Christ) and Cherubim (mighty host innumerable) , and above the first and between the second, the glory of Yahweh was seen. Christ is the Mercy Seat

The wooden seat is not what came from the grave, and when we get to heaven we will not expect to be greeted by a seat or a box. Period.

So Revelation 11:19 is a view of Romans 3:25 which will be on earth as a divine government ruling over Israel and the nations. The visions is Christ the Mercy Seat and all the Saints in glory.

No it states explicitly that temple and the ark were not on earth but in heaven. Only AFTER those angels that came from that temple went down to earth and after the tribulation will Jesus be ruling on earth!

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.


The angels that will go to earth with the judgments come out of that temple. It even is named. What temple is it in heaven? The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony

God presented him as the *mercy seat by his blood, through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

Jesus was the mercy of Good for us. Of course the mercy seat represented that. That does not mean either that there was no wooden box or that there was no Jesus, or that these were the same! John saw the Lamb in heaven and I can inform you He was not a walking little box.

So in conclusion, Jesus is "the" mercy seat and there is no other!

In conclusion Jesus in not a lego or a box or a chair. The box and seat represented Him to ancient Israel.