Ark of the Covenant in Heaven?

[face2face]

When you come to your senses... explain the symbology of the Temple in Heaven with a tremendous storm and earthquake! Revelation 11:19

Waiting....

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus is the true mercy seat end of story.

Absolutely. Thank you F2F. I'll expound a bit:

In the tabernacle, the ark of the covenant was the place of propitiation. How could a holy God dwell in the midst of a sinful people? Further, how could a sinful people ever hope to approach a holy God and not be destroyed, as were Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1–3)? That brings us to an unusual but important theological term that we need to know and experience: propitiation. In the Bible, propitiation is an act by which God's wrath is turned away from us. The imagery is expressed in Psalm 85, which says,

"Lord, You were favorable to Your land; You restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of Your people; You covered all their sin. You withdrew all Your wrath; You turned from Your hot anger." (vv. 1–3)​

Toward this end, God gave a distinct set of instructions for the ark's lid (Exodus 25:17–22), called the kapporet in Hebrew. When the Old Testament was translated into Latin, this word was translated as propitiatorium, which means "the place of propitiation." The standard English translation is "the mercy seat" (KJV).

This lid, then, was the place of propitiation, the place where the wrath of God was turned away from His people. As John Calvin wrote about the mercy seat:

"God was propitiated towards believers by the covering of the Law, so as to show Himself favorable to them by hearing their vows and prayers. For as long as the law stands forth before God's face it subjects us to His wrath and curse; and hence it is necessary that the blotting out of our guilt should be interposed, so that God may be reconciled with us."​

But while there was a morning and an evening sacrifice on the altar in the courtyard every day, as well as the offerings of the individual worshipers, these merely covered over sins and pointed forward to one great propitiatory sacrifice. In contrast, there was only one day a year when sacrificial blood was offered on the kapporet to propitiate the wrath of almighty God. As Leviticus 16 describes in great detail, on the annual Day of Atonement, propitiation was made by means of a substitutionary sacrifice.

As New-Covenant believers, we know that these annual sacrifices were only pictures of the propitiation of God's wrath. We see the powerlessness of the animal sacrifices in Hebrews 9:13–14, which says:

"For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." ​

Just as Jesus alone can cleanse the soul and conscience, He alone can turn away the wrath of God, since He is our propitiation (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10).

The Lord is present in our midst in public worship just as He was in the tabernacle, but is He present to judge or to save? In a more personal way, will He look on our sins or will He look on Jesus Christ in our place? The Lord provided the Israelites a place of propitiation on the ark's lid, and He still provides a place today. That "place" is Jesus Christ. He offers Himself to us. He turns away the wrath of God from us. He cleanses us of our sins. He cancels them out. He nullifies their power. He brings us into the presence of God blameless and acceptable. If we confess our sins to Him and believe that Jesus Christ will propitiate God's wrath against us, we are ~ and shall be ~ saved.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[dad]

Another cloud without water...press on toward the mark leaving you with your hangups on the ark.
Enjoy!

Do you believe the ark is in a temple in heaven like the bible says? If I recall, you do not. I think you say Jesus is that ark or some such. So I guess you think that original actual ark of the covenant is rotting away somewhere on earth or in hiding here. Great, thanks for weighing in with your opinion.

 

[dad]

When you come to your senses... explain the symbology of the Temple in Heaven with a tremendous storm and earthquake! Revelation 11:19

Waiting....

I don't know. I assumed that the event was so important (God finally starting to wrap things up on earth with the judgments) that in that area where the temple was in heaven, thunders and lightnings were seen and heard. The great power of God was moving as long foretold. It is a serious thing. Why, how do you wave it away exactly?

 

[dad]

In the tabernacle, the ark of the covenant was the place of propitiation. How could a holy God dwell in the midst of a sinful people? Further, how could a sinful people ever hope to approach a holy God and not be destroyed, as were Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1–3)? That brings us to an unusual but important theological term that we need to know and experience: propitiation. In the Bible, propitiation is an act by which God's wrath is turned away from us. The imagery is expressed in Psalm 85, which says,

"Lord, You were favorable to Your land; You restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of Your people; You covered all their sin. You withdrew all Your wrath; You turned from Your hot anger." (vv. 1–3)​

Toward this end, God gave a distinct set of instructions for the ark's lid (Exodus 25:17–22), called the kapporet in Hebrew. When the Old Testament was translated into Latin, this word was translated as propitiatorium, which means "the place of propitiation." The standard English translation is "the mercy seat" (KJV).

This lid, then, was the place of propitiation, the place where the wrath of God was turned away from His people. As John Calvin wrote about the mercy seat:

"God was propitiated towards believers by the covering of the Law, so as to show Himself favorable to them by hearing their vows and prayers. For as long as the law stands forth before God's face it subjects us to His wrath and curse; and hence it is necessary that the blotting out of our guilt should be interposed, so that God may be reconciled with us."​

But while there was a morning and an evening sacrifice on the altar in the courtyard every day, as well as the offerings of the individual worshipers, these merely covered over sins and pointed forward to one great propitiatory sacrifice. In contrast, there was only one day a year when sacrificial blood was offered on the kapporet to propitiate the wrath of almighty God. As Leviticus 16 describes in great detail, on the annual Day of Atonement, propitiation was made by means of a substitutionary sacrifice.

As New-Covenant believers, we know that these annual sacrifices were only pictures of the propitiation of God's wrath. We see the powerlessness of the animal sacrifices in Hebrews 9:13–14, which says:

"For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." ​

Just as Jesus alone can cleanse the soul and conscience, He alone can turn away the wrath of God, since He is our propitiation (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10).

That is interesting. The ark showed how Jesus as the lid, covered the law from us. Great picture of Jesus. Of course that lid was not Jesus, just a picture of what was to happen.

So then, since the ark was so important and such a great shadow of things spiritual and to come, where do you think it is now?

 

[PinSeeker]

That is interesting.

And true.

The ark showed how Jesus as the lid, covered the law from us.

No, read the article again, dad. Surely your ability to comprehend is better than that. Read it again. And again and again, if necessary.

Of course that lid was not Jesus, just a picture of what was to happen.

So you do seem to understand. Well, good. Yes, the lid was an object lesson to the Israelites of old, and they knew that, actually, because they had all the prophets of old, whom God spoke through, telling them as much. So, not "what was to happen," per se, but Who was to come, the Deliverer, the Redeemer, the Savior ~ the true Object.

So then, since the ark was so important and such a great shadow of things spiritual and to come, where do you think it is now?

I think, dad, that if it still exists, it is buried in the sand somewhere in the Near- or Middle-East, or in northeast Africa. And that is in no way a contradiction of Revelation 11:19, as I have well demonstrated. Even so, it really doesn't matter where it is now, as it as gone the way of the Ceremonial and Civil Law and animal sacrifices and such. It served its very important purpose back in the day, but now that the Day has come, there is no longer any need for it and it has been made obsolete.

It would be very interesting to actually see the ark of the covenant someday, though. I wouldn't call myself a history buff, really, but I do like history...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

And true.


No, read the article again, dad. Surely your ability to comprehend is better than that. Read it again. And again and again, if necessary.

Cut to the chase here, what is it you think we would find?

So you do seem to understand. Well, good. Yes, the lid was an object lesson to the Israelites of old,

Right, and I daresay even to man today. They need Jesus.

and they knew that, actually, because they had all the prophets of old, whom God spoke through, telling them as much. So, not "what was to happen," per se, but Who was to come, the Deliverer, the Redeemer, the Savior ~ the true Object.

No. Not if you use the word object as meaning Jesus is an object like the ark. The ark pointed to Him. Nevertheless that ark was an object and real. So where is it?

I think, dad, that if it still exists, it is buried in the sand somewhere in the Near- or Middle-East, or in northeast Africa.

OK. So the sacred object that represented the very presence of God and other things got lost and buried somewhere. That is your opinion. As mentioned it makes a lot more sense to me to think that God took it to heaven when Jesus died.

And that is in no way a contradiction of Revelation 11:19, as I have well demonstrated.

No you did not demonstrate any such thing. Just because the ark represented various spiritual truths, does not mean there is no ark where the bible says there is one. Look it up, can you show us that 'the ark of his testimony' was one of the names of Jesus? You seem to be claiming that it was Jesus that was seen in that temple in heaven not really an ark. (although I think you also wave away the temple being real as well etc)

Even so, it really doesn't matter where it is now, as it as gone the way of the Ceremonial and Civil Law and animal sacrifices and such.

Matter to who? You? Or God? If it did not matter why would it be safe in a temple in heaven?

It served its very important purpose back in the day, but now that the Day has come, there is no longer any need for it and it has been made obsolete.

Of course when Jesus returns He will be here directly so why would we need a box to represent His presence? Even today, we have Jesus in us, so we need no box. That might be why God took it to heaven when Jesus died!

It would be very interesting to actually see the ark of the covenant someday, though. I wouldn't call myself a history buff, really, but I do like history...

I fully intend to have a look at the temples and museums of heaven.

 

[PinSeeker]

So the sacred object that represented the very presence of God and other things got lost and buried somewhere. That is your opinion. As mentioned it makes a lot more sense to me to think that God took it to heaven when Jesus died.

Well, I would say that there were never really any sacred objects, but rather objects used for sacred purposes... except for the one true Object that the ark, surely an object, pointed to.

Now, "lost and buried"... we don't really know that, either, but I'm not arguing about that, per se.

And regarding what makes more sense to you... okay, fine.

So we can just leave it all right there, can we not?

No you did not demonstrate any such thing.

Okay, so I acknowledged you're statement regarding my opinion ~ that it is my opinion ~ immediately above, and I would say in the same light that this is your opinion. Cool?

Just because the ark represented various spiritual truths, does not mean there is no ark where the bible says there is one.

Well there was an ark of the covenant, for sure. As has been well-established, our opinions about Revelation 11:19 are widely divergent.

Look it up, can you show us that 'the ark of his testimony' was one of the names of Jesus?

LOL! No offense, but a silly question... So I'm waving away the question...

You seem to be claiming that it was Jesus that was seen in that temple in heaven...

Nope. Not claiming that, dad.

...although I think you also wave away the temple being real as well etc.

You think wrongly.

Matter to who? You? Or God?

Um... yes. The ark served its purpose long ago.

If it did not matter why would it be safe in a temple in heaven?

Well see now you're just sinking back into what I have called your opinion from the outset of this discussion. So we're just going in circles, here, dad, or at least you are.

Of course when Jesus returns He will be here directly so why would we need a box to represent His presence? Even today, we have Jesus in us, so we need no box.

Sure. Exactly what I have been saying.

That might be why God took it to heaven when Jesus died!

LOL!!! <SIGH> So why would we need it in heaven, dad? Or, if Jesus is there (which He is, sitting at the right hand of the Father, making constant intercession for us), why would the ark need to be there now? Does... God... need it? LOL! I'm hacking at you with these "questions," dad. Having a little fun with you.

I fully intend to have a look at the temples and museums of heaven.

More power to ya.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[face2face]

I don't know. I assumed that the event was so important (God finally starting to wrap things up on earth with the judgments) that in that area where the temple was in heaven, thunders and lightnings were seen and heard. The great power of God was moving as long foretold. It is a serious thing. Why, how do you wave it away exactly?

Firstly, I get the hint you can see its not as clear as you once thought. For Heaven is where peace and order reign! Matthew 6:10 after all is the whole point of Christ's future reign on earth is it not? Heaven has nothing to do with the plan and purpose of God with the Earth.
So you have the imagery of the Temple of God opening up.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God in heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant was visible within his temple.
And there were flashes of lightning, •roaring, •crashes of thunder, •an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

Image 1. Temple of God
Image 2. Ark of the covenant was visible within his temple
image 3. lightning, roaring, crashes of thunder, an earthquake and great hailstorm.

By now, you have also started to doubt that such things are likely to occur in Heaven and for what reason could it??? Correct! there isn't one! Revelation is only concerned with the affairs on earth - its all about earth (and whats coming to it!) - Numbers 14:21 is God's great mission statement which He has been working to for generations and the Revelation is a highly symbolic letter from God through Christ, through his angel, through John, through the Elders of the Christ and to us his people the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Kingdoms of men!

You ignored my interpretation of the Temple and Ark are representative of Christ and His Saints, so now lets move on to the other symbols.

What does image 3 typically speak to in other sections of the Revelation?

Need to work for this dad!
You also need to understand why visions like this one are placed at the end of a horrendous section of prophecy (and History) in Revelation 11.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Do you believe the ark is in a temple in heaven like the bible says? If I recall, you do not. I think you say Jesus is that ark or some such. So I guess you think that original actual ark of the covenant is rotting away somewhere on earth or in hiding here. Great, thanks for weighing in with your opinion.

Well firstly your misquote of Revelation 11:19 is still being unfolded.
Yes, you can end the OP because God, Christ and the Angelic Host couldn't give two hoots about the wooden box! It's a relic of a previous age - an old teacher who has been retired and now passed off the scene never to be restored!
A true Saint would know this and have no interest in its whereabouts. It's fruitless discussion which has no end in sight...at best we can discuss it's significance in the life, death and resurrection of Christ which is the only profitable discussion to be had on this subject.
You weren't to know Revelation 11:19 was not speaking to a wooden box in heaven...you made the mistake as many do in plain reading of the text without deciphering its true meaning.
Enjoy
F2F

 

[dad]

Well, I would say that there were never really any sacred objects, but rather objects used for sacred purposes... except for the one true Object that the ark, surely an object, pointed to.

Whatever it pointed to aside there was an ark, so where is it? I think you answered that you neither know nor care.

Now, "lost and buried"... we don't really know that, either, but I'm not arguing about that, per se.

Well if it is on planet earth that description will do.

Well there was an ark of the covenant, for sure. As has been well-established, our opinions about Revelation 11:19 are widely divergent.

To be clear do you wave away the temple as well as the ark in the temple? If so, how about heaven, does that make the reality cut for you?

Um... yes. The ark served its purpose long ago.

Right and has a great retirement plan in heaven apparently.

LOL!!! <SIGH> So why would we need it in heaven, dad?

Don't blame me, I just read where it is in the bible. Why would I doubt God has reasons?

Or, if Jesus is there (which He is, sitting at the right hand of the Father, making constant intercession for us), why would the ark need to be there now?

Who cares? Maybe a memorial? Maybe God felt like having it there...etc.

Heaven is where peace and order reign! Matthew 6:10 after all is the whole point of Christ's future reign on earth is it not? Heaven has nothing to do with the plan and purpose of God with the Earth.

Excuse me!?? Where do you think our home is while we reign on earth? New Jerusalem, otherwise known as heaven. That is our home that He prepared for us. Since the rulers of earth will live there and commute to earth to rule it plays a wonderfully big part of the future reign on earth! We might even conduct tours there for some folks, who knows?

So you have the imagery of the Temple of God opening up.

You call it imagery. I see it as simple fact.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God in heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant was visible within his temple.
And there were flashes of lightning, •roaring, •crashes of thunder, •an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

Image 1. Temple of God
Image 2. Ark of the covenant was visible within his temple
image 3. lightning, roaring, crashes of thunder, an earthquake and great hailstorm.

Correct that is what was seen in heaven.

By now, you have also started to doubt that such things are likely to occur in Heaven and for what reason could it???

God is very powerful. When He is angry and prepares to end the world, there is silence in heaven for a half hour. When the temple was opened from which we also later see the angels of wrath came out of, there was also seen in heaven some unusual things. You can't say that silence and a sound and light show could not happen in heaven.

Revelation is only concerned with the affairs on earth

That is a ridiculous claim. We are told about New Jerusalem in great detail. John was told to come up to heaven and a lot of what he saw was in heaven.

You ignored my interpretation of the Temple and Ark are representative of Christ and His Saints, so now lets move on to the other symbols.

The bible does not indicate the temple was not real. Or the ark there in the temple. Etc etc. You seem to be trying to spirituallize it away.

You also need to understand why visions like this one are placed at the end of a horrendous section of prophecy (and History) in Revelation 11.

Apparently you have a theory as to why.

 

[dad]

Well firstly your misquote of Revelation 11:19 is still being unfolded.

Misquote?

Yes, you can end the OP because God, Christ and the Angelic Host couldn't give two hoots about the wooden box!

Yet there is a temple in heaven named after it and containing it! Your opinion has no basis.

A true Saint would know this and have no interest in its whereabouts.

So now those who disbelieve that there really were the temple and the ark in the temple are unlike saints! Pretty lame.

It's fruitless discussion which has no end in sight...

The only place the discussion was sidetracked was when you expressed disbelief that there even was a real temple or ark as Revelation stated.

at best we can discuss it's significance in the life, death and resurrection of Christ which is the only profitable discussion to be had on this subject.

To offer an opinion of where the ark is, actually all you needed to do was some geography or plead ignorance. Instead you went on and on and on about how the temple and ark were not really a temple or ark! A simple way for you to say it would have been, I do not believe that there actually was a temple or an ark as the verse states there were. That leaves you with the ark being still on earth somewhere and all you could do is express either ignorance or a conspiracy theory.

You weren't to know Revelation 11:19 was not speaking to a wooden box in heaven...you made the mistake as many do in plain reading of the text without deciphering its true meaning.

Your wild waving away attempts and unclear diatribe offered as some interpretive wisdom are laughable actually.

 

[face2face]

Misquote?

Yet there is a temple in heaven named after it and containing it! Your opinion has no basis.


So now those who disbelieve that there really were the temple and the ark in the temple are unlike saints! Pretty lame.
The only place the discussion was sidetracked was when you expressed disbelief that there even was a real temple or ark as Revelation stated.

To offer an opinion of where the ark is, actually all you needed to do was some geography or plead ignorance. Instead you went on and on and on about how the temple and ark were not really a temple or ark! A simple way for you to say it would have been, I do not believe that there actually was a temple or an ark as the verse states there were. That leaves you with the ark being still on earth somewhere and all you could do is express either ignorance or a conspiracy theory.
Your wild waving away attempts and unclear diatribe offered as some interpretive wisdom are laughable actually.

So all this diatribe resulted in you admitting you haven't a clue what Revelation 11:19 means and you would rather believe in a physical box being in Heaven than being humble enough to learn the true meaning of Revelation 11 and why this future vision is placed at the end of that chapter!

Be on your way!

F2F

Jeremiah 3:15-16 still applies - converted Jews do not recall it, or bring it to mind, forgotten forever, because the true mercy seat (Christ) is in their midst! Only the arrogant and ignorant would press a pointless OP as this one.

 

[dad]

So all this diatribe resulted in you admitting you haven't a clue what Revelation 11:19 means

It means a temple was opened in heaven and in it was the ark of the covenant.

and you would rather believe in a physical box being in Heaven than being humble enough to learn the true meaning of Revelation 11 and why this future vision is placed at the end of that chapter!

Not sure what having verses at the ends of chapters seems to rock your boat. However, unless you have some clear and sane reason why anyone would care, don't waste our time pretending you have some clever point.

Jeremiah 3:15-16 still applies - converted Jews do not recall it, or bring it to mind, forgotten forever, because the true mercy seat (Christ) is in their midst!

Great and at the same time the actual ark of the covenant is in heaven. So?

Only the arrogant and ignorant would press a pointless OP as this one.

Except that your attempted points are a joke and irrelevant nonsense. Work on that.

Your admission that you think the ark is on earth and in hiding or lost or whatever is noted.

I'll go with the bible thanks.

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Period.

 

[face2face]

The OP author has taken a hyper literal reading of Revelation 11:19 to the utter extreme, where they believe that lightnings, thunders, earthquakes and great hail all happen in Heaven?

I mean it astounds me over the past few months how many Christians are unable to interpret Bible imagery! Since when does the Christian think a literal reading of the text in a highly symbolic prophetical book will provide them understanding?

Yes, you have the author stating openly that earthquakes happen in Heaven? :smlhmm: And that the literal ark of the covenant was taken up into Heaven and shown to John for what reason?

No wonder when Christ returns he states "will I find faith on earth?" when you have idiocy on this level.

So the spiritual significance of Revelation 11:19 can be seen in two parts.

1. Temple and Ark of the Covenant represent Christ and the Saints in a future age (post second coming)
2. Lightnings, earthquakes and great hail always symbolize a tremendous political storm which will overthrow all existing governance in the earth at his coming, and replace them with a new divine order on earth.

First readers of this prophecy would have seen the significance of these two images and identified them immediately with the New Temple in Christ and his body!

2 Corinthians 6:16

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, after all this, I will wave away one thing, and one thing only, dad. You. Well, your... misunderstandings. Because I've tried to allay them, but apparently to no avail. But certainly, by all means, if you so choose, stick to your guns...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The OP author has taken a hyper literal reading of Revelation 11:19 to the utter extreme, where they believe that lightnings, thunders, earthquakes and great hail all happen in Heaven?

I mean it astounds me over the past few months how many Christians are unable to interpret Bible imagery! Since when does the Christian think a literal reading of the text in a highly symbolic prophetical book will provide them understanding?

Yes, you have the author stating openly that earthquakes happen in Heaven? :smlhmm: And that the literal ark of the covenant was taken up into Heaven and shown to John for what reason?

No wonder when Christ returns he states "will I find faith on earth?" when you have idiocy on this level.

What Paul says to the Christians in Ephesus (and to us) is very instructive here:

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)​

So the spiritual significance of Revelation 11:19 can be seen in two parts.

1. Temple and Ark of the Covenant represent Christ and the Saints in a future age (post second coming)
2. Lightnings, earthquakes and great hail always symbolize a tremendous political storm which will overthrow all existing governance in the earth at his coming, and replace them with a new divine order on earth.

First readers of this prophecy would have seen the significance of these two images and identified them immediately with the New Temple in Christ and his body!

2 Corinthians 6:16

I would agree with your first point, here, F2F ~ see above ~ but I would say the lightnings, earthquakes, and great hail symbolize Christ's coming in power and glory and righteousness and judgment, and ~ with regard to the wicked ~ bringing wrath and recompense/vengeance. But I'm okay with the "replace with a new divine order on earth" thing. Yes, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5). I don't really have a problem with the idea of replacement, but it's really in the sense of a final setting things right, and in that sense making things new.

Grace and peace to you and all.

 

[face2face]

What Paul says to the Christians in Ephesus (and to us) is very instructive here:

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)​

I would agree with your first point, here, F2F ~ see above ~ but I would say the lightnings, earthquakes, and great hail symbolize Christ's coming in power and glory and righteousness and judgment, and ~ with regard to the wicked ~ bringing wrath and recompense/vengeance. But I'm okay with the "replace with a new divine order on earth" thing. Yes, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5). I don't really have a problem with the idea of replacement, but it's really in the sense of a final setting things right, and in that sense making things new.

Grace and peace to you and all.

The how this new order comes about is another OP but needless to say your thoughts above are spot on.

The reason for placing the vision at the end of the prophecy is to provides those living through this tumultuous time a positive vision to encourage their faith. The things which must shortly come to pass applies to every generation who long for Christ's coming.

The substance of Revelation 11 has already past but the lessons apply to us who wait for the Lord.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Period.

It would be good to get some acknowledgment from you in confirming the use of Revelation 11:19 was incorrect and that you now at the very least appreciate the lessons contained within, which are not literal, but highly symbolic of the a future time when Christ and the Saints will rule the earth?

I also asked you to confirm this understanding for yourself by finding elsewhere in the Apocalypse where the symbolic of an earthquake is used?

F2F

 

[dad]

It would be good to get some acknowledgment from you in confirming the use of Revelation 11:19 was incorrect and that you now at the very least appreciate the lessons contained within, which are not literal, but highly symbolic of the a future time when Christ and the Saints will rule the earth?

It would probably be better for you to admit defeat and get on with getting a better understanding of the ark in heaven. It is not relevant to the issue of where the ark is to be looking at all the symbolism of the ark. It did not say the symbolism was in heaven but that a temple was in heaven that contained that ark of the covenant. It is dishonest to pretend that I am wrong in the clear reading of a simple and plain text.

I also asked you to confirm this understanding for yourself by finding elsewhere in the Apocalypse where the symbolic of an earthquake is used?

It doesn't matter. There are quakes all over. There is a final great shaking at the end of the trib as well. But the rumblings and sparks at this big event at a temple do not seem to be any of those. If you claim it is one, be specific.