Ark of the Covenant in Heaven?

[dad]

It would appear that God supernaturally removed the Ark of the Covenant to Heaven just before the destruction of the temple by Nebuchadnezzar. And that is why it is seen in Heaven in Revelation 11:19.

Says who? Have you any evidence it was not in Herod's temple?

At the time that Solomon had the Ark brought into the temple which he had built, only the two tablets of stone remained (1 Kings 8:9). However, originally it had (a) a golden pot with manna and (b) Aaron's rod which budded (Heb 9:4). But after the destruction of the temple, the Ark was not found on earth.

Interesting that some of the contents of the ark were apparently taken to heaven before the ark itself and the tablets of stone.

And after the redemption and restoration of Israel, the Ark will not be in the temple at Jerusalem: And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. (Jer 3:16)

Great, so now that the ark is in heaven there is no need for it to represent His presence for the millennial ceremonial stuff.

 

[dad]

Some claim they may have found the Ark of the Covenant....(Jewish priests).

Maybe they do have one waiting to be used in the next temple. It will only be a replica though. (whether they know it or not)

 

[Enoch111]

Says who? Have you any evidence it was not in Herod's temple?

Do you have any proof that it was? Where do you think the Ark went when Nebuchadnezzar burnt down the temple? And why was it found in Heaven?

 

[dad]

Do you have any proof that it was? Where do you think the Ark went when Nebuchadnezzar burnt down the temple? And why was it found in Heaven?

Why wouldn't it be? There were many artifacts, were there not that found their way back to the new temple? If so, why not the holy ark also? If the ark in heaven is the ark of the covenant, then when do you imagine God would have taken it up there? Why would it make any sense to take it to heaven hundreds of years before He came here? Would that not also add an extra wow meaning to having God rip that curtain that hid that ark? After all we have God's hand recorded at the scene of the 'crime' here! What better time to rip the veil and take up the ark to heaven than the moment Jesus died!?

For those claiming that the ark was not in the temple it is up to them to provide evidence!

 

[PinSeeker]

All the old testament was a picture. Nevertheless the topic here is what happened to the ark. Not whether the ark had spiritual significance etc.

Sure, and that can be an interesting conversation to have, I guess, but not of any real consequence. We don't worship a boat. :) Or a box. :) But by all means, carry on.

Ah, there is your problem.

Yeah, no problems here... :)

I see zero reason there was not real thundering at that great moment Revelation speaks of.

Hmm, "was." So you think what is being spoken of in Revelation 11:15-19 is in the past? If so, well, I certainly disagree with that... :) Revelation 11:15-19 is a vision of the Second Coming, the return of Christ, which is still yet future. Yes, the ark is "seen." Revelation is very much rooted in the Old Testament and must be read as such. The ark was the most holy object in the tabernacle (Exodus 25:10-22). It was normally concealed from sight behind the tabernacle curtains. The revealing of this innermost object signifies that God has fully revealed his glory, both the glory of his law (the covenant words) and of his mercy (as signified by the atonement cover). All in all, this opening implies the revealing of God himself ~ in the Person of Jesus. This is a very real event, but still yet to come. The lightning, thunder, and storm are symbolic of the majesty of His power. And with God’s presence comes also the renewal of all things (Revelation 21:1-22:5). But the further explanation of this renewal must wait for a later point in the dramatic development in Revelation.

We should take it then that you do not believe that there was an ark in heaven then?

That would be fine by me. No, I do not believe the ark of the covenant is in heaven.

PinSeeker: Revelation is John's recounting of a dream, rather than stone cold reality​

Not in any way is that remotely similar to the truth.

You're certainly not alone in thinking that. But neither am I in my understandings. :)

Revelation was a revealing and a trip to heaven etc. Not some dream. He was taken up there to hear and to see.

Well, it was certainly revealing; that we agree on, for sure. I would like you to point me to some piece of Revelation ~ or any other part of Scripture ~ that actually says in some way that John was actually physically transported anywhere. Or perhaps you think it was an out-of-body experience... Even then, can you point to any piece of Scripture, how ever small, that says John was actually taken anywhere? I would point to the very first verse of Revelation (1:1), and say that God gave this revelation to John, and He made it known by sending His angel to John ~ on the island of Patmos. The angel brought the vision to John.

Even the symbols represent reality greater than the reality we know.

Well, they certainly represent a greater reality, but we can know it and be blessed by it, even by the reading aloud of Revelation, as John says in Revelation 1:3.

You cannot wave them away.

I'm certainly not waving anything away. Never would I do such a thing.

You cannot wave them away.Just because no temple is needed in new Jerusalem and Jesus is the 'temple' there, that does not mean that there also was not a temple of His also there! Not yours, His. In His temple was that ark.

So... you somehow think the ark of the covenant is Jesus's temple? If so, that's certainly a new one. :) I've never heard someone say such a thing. Is that what you're suggesting?

There is no way I will let you wave away the fact that the ark is there as we speak.

I'm not waving it away, I just... well, no offense intended, but truthfully, I think it's nonsense. :)

Now I think some people try to say it is ANOTHER ark, or some such. Sort of like an original ark, and the one on earth they say was just a copy or blah blah. But at least they seem to believe some ark is there!

Well, good for them, I guess. It really is of no consequence which side of this "fence" anybody is on... whether the ark of the covenant is here or there or even still exists.

Guess what there is a real Boaz in heaven also!

Sure. Absolutely. I look forward to meeting him. :)

The topic here is a real ark of the covenant and what happened to it.

Cool. Like I said, maybe interesting conversation. Carry on, by all means; suit yourself.

Like Noah and Boaz it is in heaven!

Disagree.

...I took the opportunity to point out that there was an exact replica made in the days of Solomon supposedly and brought to Ethiopia.

Yes, I've heard the Ethiopia rumors. I wouldn't doubt that it is there. If it still exists.

In any case, whether that happened or not (who knows?) if someone claims that they have the actual ark, and it dates to the right time etc, I will consider it a fraud.

Fine by me... :) As for me, I will just keep my eyes on Jesus, waiting patiently for His return.

I've been really surprised by your tone throughout this exchange, dad. You seem very angry. I would ask that you tone it down, bro. I mean, hey, do what you want, but, well, my goodness.

Grace and peace to you, dad.

 

[dad]

Sure, and that can be an interesting conversation to have, I guess, but not of any real consequence. We don't worship a boat. :) Or a box. :) But by all means, carry on.

God does not worship a veil either yet He ripped that veil in the temple when Jesus died. He does not worship the ark either, but it seems likely that He took it to heaven at the same time. God doing things does not mean we worship things.

Hmm, "was." So you think what is being spoken of in Revelation 11:15-19 is in the past?

No. Unless you mean at the time of John which obviously was the past.

If so, well, I certainly disagree with that... :) Revelation 11:15-19 is a vision of the Second Coming, the return of Christ, which is still yet future.

In Rev 15 it says angels came out of the temple. I would think people believe there was a temple as well as angels there? Rev 11 speaks of the ark, so it really was there when John saw it. It is there now, right? Or do you imagine that God sneaks it up there in a few months or years etc? Have you some reason to deny that a great time to have taken it from the holy of holies was that same time that He ripped the veil in the holy of holies when Jesus died?? Why would He leave the thing that symbolized His presence AFTER Jesus was killed? The reason the veil was ripped was similar! It showed that there was no longer any separation especially as relates to the Jewish holy places! If the ark was there (and no one has offered any reason here whatsoever to doubt it was) God would not leave it there, because He was no longer associated with that system and place!

Yes, the ark is "seen." Revelation is very much rooted in the Old Testament and must be read as such.

It was seen. Period. We know where. So why would it be any mystery where it is now?

The ark was the most holy object in the tabernacle (Exodus 25:10-22). It was normally concealed from sight behind the tabernacle curtains.

Yes, exactly those SAME curtains that God ripped in two when Jesus died. I have heard that Christian 'legend' speaks about how they sewed the veil back up to hide what had happened.

The revealing of this innermost object signifies that God has fully revealed his glory, both the glory of his law (the covenant words) and of his mercy (as signified by the atonement cover).

And Him ripping the veil and taking away this object signifies He has left the building so to speak.

All in all, this opening implies the revealing of God himself ~ in the Person of Jesus. This is a very real event, but still yet to come.

The next time I see the temple mentioned, it is angels coming out of it. So real stuff goes on in that temple!

Revelation 15:6

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Revelation 15:7

And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 15:8

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

The lightning, thunder, and storm are symbolic of the majesty of His power.

Symbolic? How about real manifestations??

And with God’s presence comes also the renewal of all things (Revelation 21:1-22:5).

That is after the millennium. Nothing to do with where the ark is now.

That would be fine by me. No, I do not believe the ark of the covenant is in heaven.

So where do you think it is? You thought God would allow the sacred object that signified His presence with man and Israel to get lost? He showed us that He did not take kindly too the heather having that ark! That is a known factor here. You also have given no evidence it was not in the holy of holies when Jesus died.

Well, it was certainly revealing; that we agree on, for sure. I would like you to point me to some piece of Revelation ~ or any other part of Scripture ~ that actually says in some way that John was actually physically transported anywhere.

John was not dreaming. He turned to look at what he heard.

Revelation 1:12

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.

Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
So John went UP. Yes of course he also was very much in the spirit for sure! While he was there, he saw things and heard things and wept and bowed down etc. That can't be waved away.
And while he was in heaven he did not just sit there.

Revelation 6:1

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

For each of those horsemen John went to see.

Well, they certainly represent a greater reality, but we can know it and be blessed by it, even by the reading aloud of Revelation, as John says in Revelation 1:3.

Don't forget hearing it also! He that has ears to hear, let him hear. So it implies understanding, and belief, not just hearing it read.

So... you somehow think the ark of the covenant is Jesus's temple? If so, that's certainly a new one. :) I've never heard someone say such a thing. Is that what you're suggesting?

Yes. Safe and sound. I find it ridiculous to think that God would have ever allowed it to remain here after Jesus died. Nor would He allow the genuine ark to be in the new temple in Israel if there is one.

Well, good for them, I guess. It really is of no consequence which side of this "fence" anybody is on... whether the ark of the covenant is here or there or even still exists.

I find it is consequential. It is a wonderful thiing to know God is real and that heaven is real and that even the ark is real.

Disagree.

Then you must be suggesting the real ark is hiding somewhere on earth!

Yes, I've heard the Ethiopia rumors. I wouldn't doubt that it is there. If it still exists.

I would doubt it. I lean towards believing it ended up back in Israel.

Fine by me... :) As for me, I will just keep my eyes on Jesus, waiting patiently for His return.

Yes. And for those of us that believe He is coming to save us from the wrath to come soon, that is the patience of the saints.

 

[Ancient]

read the book of Maccabees

2 Maccabees 2:4-8 considered the scriptures in 1st century times.

Shalom

 

[Brakelite]

The Ark made by man and dwelt on this earth was a replica of the original in the tabernacle in heaven.

Everything in the temple, all the sacred vessels were a replica of what was in heaven. Heb. 9:23-24.

In Rev. the Ark seen is the original. It is the pattern for the earthly Ark.

Amen. As were the tables of the law enshrined inside, the laws of the government of heaven, based on love, thus the ark of His testimony.
Strange how the church sees fit to think it can change those laws, or think them unreasonable to obey, as if designating them as the 'law of Moses' somehow lessens their import. They were originally and still remain the laws of God. All ten. Notwithstanding the circumlocutionary attempts by the modern church to destroy their relevance.

 

[PinSeeker]

So where do you think it is?

Like I said, it matters not. It was just a thing, really. Yes, it was a very important "thing" in those ancient days, and what it represented and pointed to was and is ~ to say the least ~ a very important Thing. :) But just a thing it was ~ a type, a shadow, and not the real Thing Who was at that point still yet to come (although He certainly existed, even from eternity past).

John was not dreaming. He turned to look at what he heard.

It was a vision. Not to lessen its significance in any way, which you seem to be accusing me of, but still a vision, a prophetic vision. As such, it is one of the primary works of the Holy Spirit, which is cited by Peter at the day of Pentecost: “Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams…” This is what John, an old man at the time of his exile to Patmos, experienced. Everything in his vision is certainly representative of very real things that presently have happened, are happening, and will continue to happen, until Jesus's return. And I say it that way because so much of what he writes ~ the majority, actually ~ are one to many, with regard to manifestations, rather than one to one. If you want me to go into more detail than that, I will, but for now at least I'm just going to leave it at that.

So John went UP.

Well, yes, but we disagree about what that means, apparently.

Yes of course he also was very much in the spirit for sure! While he was there, he saw things and heard things and wept and bowed down etc. That can't be waved away. And while he was in heaven he did not just sit there.

Agreed. But... see above. As I said before (and hopefully do not have to say again), I am "waving away" or dismissing absolutely nothing.

Don't forget hearing it also! He that has ears to hear, let him hear. So it implies understanding, and belief, not just hearing it read.

Absolutely agree.

Yes. Safe and sound. I find it ridiculous to think that God would have ever allowed it to remain here after Jesus died. Nor would He allow the genuine ark to be in the new temple in Israel if there is one.[/QUOTE]
Okay, well... :) I find it ridiculous for someone to think that the ark of the covenant is Jesus's temple. Jesus is the true Temple. Actually, He's the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, and in Him we who are in Him are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Just as Christ's true Church is not literally a building but a people, the true Temple is not a building ~ of stone, brick, mortar, wood or any other material from Home Depot... :) ~ but a people, God's people, His Israel.

I find it is consequential.

Okay, fine; more power to you. :) Just... don't worship it, because that would be idolatry.

It is a wonderful thiing to know God is real and that heaven is real and that even the ark is real.

Well, yes, I agree. I mean, the ark of the covenant certainly was a real thing... And it may still actually exist. :)

Then you must be suggesting the real ark is hiding somewhere on earth!

Well not "hiding..." :)

I lean towards believing it ended up back in Israel.

Cool. Maybe so.

Yes. And for those of us that believe He is coming to save us from the wrath to come soon, that is the patience of the saints.

Absolutely. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

Like I said, it matters not.

I don't see how something that represented the presence of God and was probably taken up to heaven by God at the same time Jesus died, and He ripped the veil does not matter? If it was not important why does God tell us it is now in heaven?

It was just a thing, really. Yes, it was a very important "thing" in those ancient days, and what it represented and pointed to was and is ~ to say the least ~ a very important Thing.

Since it is in heaven it apparently is still important!

:) But just a thing it was ~ a type, a shadow, and not the real Thing Who was at that point still yet to come (although He certainly existed, even from eternity past).

The veil was a shadow also, about how there was a separation from God and man. Yet He by His Own hand tore that veil. He apparently also grabbed the ark at the same time. Then we see the ark in heaven. More than a shadow, that!

It was a vision.

It was a spirit trip where John was told to come up and he did. He then felt, heard and saw a lot of things. A vision is not like that. That was more a tour than a vision.

Not to lessen its significance in any way, which you seem to be accusing me of, but still a vision, a prophetic vision. As such, it is one of the primary works of the Holy Spirit, which is cited by Peter at the day of Pentecost: “Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams…” This is what John, an old man at the time of his exile to Patmos, experienced.

Not at all.
John was taken up. (not unless you claim he could fly).
Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
So then John went through that door-in heaven. Not dreamed about it.



Everything in his vision is certainly representative of very real things that presently have happened, are happening, and will continue to happen, until Jesus's return. And I say it that way because so much of what he writes ~ the majority, actually ~ are one to many, with regard to manifestations, rather than one to one. If you want me to go into more detail than that, I will, but for now at least I'm just going to leave it at that.

Agreed. But... see above. As I said before (and hopefully do not have to say again), I am "waving away" or dismissing absolutely nothing.

Taking away from the reality of what happened is what the problem here is. I notice many christians today tend to do that a lot. Not just with the Revelation of Jesus, but with the Rapture, creation in six days, end time prophesies, etc etc etc etc. So I am developing an allergy to that sort of thing.

Okay, well... :) I find it ridiculous for someone to think that the ark of the covenant is Jesus's temple. Jesus is the true Temple.

Yeah and He is the door as well and a lot of other things. That does not mean there are no doors in our mansions or the gates of heaven etc etc. That also does not mean there are no temples either since we are told about one. The thing is that it does not take the place of Jesus as some way to God or something needed by us etc. It does mean the ark is in there and that angels came out of there with the plagues etc.

Well, yes, I agree. I mean, the ark of the covenant certainly was a real thing... And it may still actually exist. :)


Well not "hiding..." :)


Cool. Maybe so.


Absolutely. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. Grace and peace to you.

Not may...does exist and we know where. That may help some in the tribulation when it is likely that a replica ark will be brought to the temple. Best not to be fooled.

 

[dad]

Amen. As were the tables of the law enshrined inside, the laws of the government of heaven, based on love, thus the ark of His testimony.
Strange how the church sees fit to think it can change those laws, or think them unreasonable to obey, as if designating them as the 'law of Moses' somehow lessens their import. They were originally and still remain the laws of God. All ten. Notwithstanding the circumlocutionary attempts by the modern church to destroy their relevance.

Yet I did not see the verse saying that the ten commandments were laws of heaven? In fact only the ark was mentioned as being there. If you recall the law brought death because no one could keep it. Once we have Jesus we do not need any law. His law is love. That is the law of heaven!

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't see how something that represented the presence pf God and was probably taken up to heaven by God at the same time Jesus died, and He ripped the veil does not matter?

That's not what I'm saying, dad.

If it was not important why does God tell us it is now in heaven?

Well, I disagree that "God tells us that it is now in heaven." Yes, you will say it's right there in Revelation 11. I think there is great significance in what is there in Revelation 11, but I think you're applying a stone-cold literal aspect to it that shouldn't be so applied. It's much in the same vein as a poet like

Since it is in heaven it apparently is still important!

See above.

That was more a tour than a vision.

Okay, well I disagree. I really don't see why that should bother you so much, but so be it. No offense intended, dad, but this... well, hostility, I guess... is really off-putting.

Taking away from the reality of what happened is what the problem here is.

No, because that's just your perception. I'm not taking away from the reality of anything, dad. You think I am, as you've said this in different ways several times, but I assure you, I am not.

I notice many christians today tend to do that a lot. Not just with the Revelation of Jesus, but with the Rapture, creation in six days, end time prophesies, etc etc etc etc.

Ah yes; I could see that coming from miles away. Pre-mill, pre-tribe, the whole shebang. :) Yes, that tends to color everything. Okay, my friend. Okay.

The thing is that it does not take the place of Jesus as some way to God or something needed by us etc.

Amen.

Not may...does exist and we know where.

And I'm perfectly okay with you (and others, I guess, although I've never actually heard anybody state that the ark of the covenant is in heaven) thinking that. I don't see why you shouldn't be okay with me thinking that the ark is not really in heaven. Thinking one way or the other on whether the ark exists or in heaven or on earth... is really of no real consequence. Yes, I understand that you think I'm refuting Revelation 11:19, but I am most certainly not doing any such thing; we differ in opinion regarding exactly what John ~ and really the Holy Spirit ~ is telling us there. I maintain ~ and I'm perfectly fine with you calling this my opinion, in exactly the same way I have said that of your thinking here ~ that we should understand that this is a vision given to John by God.

Okay, so I'm saying more than I meant to say, here ~ :) ~ but let me throw this at you. John says himself (and again, really the Holy Spirit says) that Revelation is a prophecy (Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:7). We agree on that, I'm sure. So Jeremiah ~ his book is a prophecy, too ~ says the following:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant that they broke, though I was their Husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)​

This is the New Covenant, and those days are now, right? Let's specifically focus in on verse 33, underlined above. And this is in contrast to what God said through Jeremiah in Jeremiah 17:1 regarding the old covenant, that "(t)he sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; with a point of diamond it is engraved on the tablet of their heart... So we Christians now have God's law ~ a different law, the law of Christ, the Lion of Judah ~ written with a pen of iron, with a point of diamond, and engraved on the tablets of our heart. Now, you would never say that we literally have tablets for hearts or that actual words are engraved on them. And you would be right; the objects (the tablet ~ of stone or wood or some other inorganic material ~ and the pen of iron with a point of diamond) are symbolic of greater truths. So why would you do that with Revelation, which is also prophecy? Why would you not apply the same types of understanding in one prophecy as you do to another? Now, this is really a rhetorical question, so I'm not really asking for an answer. But if you have one ~ and I'm sure you will... :) ~ have at it. :)

That may help some in the tribulation when it is likely that a replica ark will be brought to the temple.

Ugh. Right, the tribulation that is future only, right? :) The tribulation is now, dad, past, present, and future, and will not end until Jesus returns. Until then, though, we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28), and that we can count it all joy when we meet trials (tribulations) of various kinds, for we know that the testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, and we will one day (at the Day of Christ) be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (James 1:2-4).

Best not to be fooled.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you, dad.

 

[dad]

That's not what I'm saying, dad.


Well, I disagree that "God tells us that it is now in heaven." Yes, you will say it's right there in Revelation 11. I think there is great significance in what is there in Revelation 11, but I think you're applying a stone-cold literal aspect to it that shouldn't be so applied. It's much in the same vein as a poet like

Believing what is said is red hot, not stone cold. What would be cold is ignoring that the ark was never lost and will never be found on earth, and the great significance that occurred when that ark was taken by God to heaven. Also the significance that none of Israel's rulers (the same ones that killed Him and lied and tried to bribe people to claim the tomb was raided etc etc etc) admitted the ark was in the temple when Jesus died.

Ah yes; I could see that coming from miles away. Pre-mill, pre-tribe, the whole shebang. :) Yes, that tends to color everything. Okay, my friend. Okay.

Is this an admission you wave away creation in six days as well as the Rapture before the wrath?

And I'm perfectly okay with you (and others, I guess, although I've never actually heard anybody state that the ark of the covenant is in heaven) thinking that.

Right, there are usually elaborate explanations as to why when it says His ark of the covenant is in a temple in heaven, it reaallly doesn't mean it.

I don't see why you shouldn't be okay with me thinking that the ark is not really in heaven.

It is OK, especially if you could provide evidence and or bible support. However, I would also ask for an explanation as to why God would allow the ark to be abused by man, when the Old Testament made it clear He did not. I would also ask for a reason why you claimed it was not in heaven.

Thinking one way or the other on whether the ark exists or in heaven or on earth... is really of no real consequence.

It would be for people who were told the real ark was hidden and now in the holy of holies in the new temple.

Yes, I understand that you think I'm refuting Revelation 11:19, but I am most certainly not doing any such thing; we differ in opinion regarding exactly what John ~ and really the Holy Spirit ~ is telling us there. I maintain ~ and I'm perfectly fine with you calling this my opinion, in exactly the same way I have said that of your thinking here ~ that we should understand that this is a vision given to John by God.

So when John heard angels was that a vision also? When he heard and saw things? When he tried to bow before the guy talking to him? When he saw New Jerusalem!? The measurements of that city? The two witnesses being killed and lying in the street, etc etc etc?

Okay, so I'm saying more than I meant to say, here ~ :) ~ but let me throw this at you. John says himself (and again, really the Holy Spirit says) that Revelation is a prophecy (Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:7). We agree on that, I'm sure. So Jeremiah ~ his book is a prophecy, too ~ says the following:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant that they broke, though I was their Husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)​

That is the millennium. How does that relate to anything discussed here? (or do you wave away the millennium also)?

This is the New Covenant, and those days are now, right?

I am not aware that Israel knows Jesus from the least of them to the greatest now?

Let's specifically focus in on verse 33, underlined above. And this is in contrast to what God said through Jeremiah in Jeremiah 17:1 regarding the old covenant, that "(t)he sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; with a point of diamond it is engraved on the tablet of their heart... So we Christians now have God's law ~ a different law, the law of Christ, the Lion of Judah ~ written with a pen of iron, with a point of diamond, and engraved on the tablets of our heart.

Believers, yes. We know Him. The verse however seems to be talking about Judah!

Now, you would never say that we literally have tablets for hearts or that actual words are engraved on them. And you would be right; the objects (the tablet ~ of stone or wood or some other inorganic material ~ and the pen of iron with a point of diamond) are symbolic of greater truths. So why would you do that with Revelation, which is also prophecy? Why would you not apply the same types of understanding in one prophecy as you do to another? Now, this is really a rhetorical question, so I'm not really asking for an answer. But if you have one ~ and I'm sure you will... :) ~ have at it. :)

The context matters. If the prophesy is about the time when Israel is saved, that is not the same as prophesy found in Revelation.

Ugh. Right, the tribulation that is future only, right? :) The tribulation is now, dad, past, present, and future, and will not end until Jesus returns.

False. The tribulation is a special seven year time at the end of the world. (the rule of man before Jesus returns to rule)
It is clear there never was or will be a time like that. Period.

Until then, though, we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28), and that we can count it all joy when we meet trials (tribulations) of various kinds, for we know that the testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, and we will one day (at the Day of Christ) be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (James 1:2-4).

Having troubles and trials and tests have nothing to do with the time of the wrath of God.

 

[bluedragon]

I think the government warehouse thing was a reference to the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark, dad. I think he was kidding with you. :)

It was. And there is a warehouse in Virginia that carries the name "Indiana Jones Warehouse." The warehouse used for that final shot. I forget who held the interview with a researcher that had the government number of the warehouse. He claims there are multiple warehouses in Virginia that house "National Treasures" that would have long ago been lost in some obscure dusty Museum basement. The researcher was the one that revealed the name "Indiana Jones Warehouse."

 

[Brakelite]

Yet I did not see the verse saying that the ten commandments were laws of heaven? In fact only the ark was mentioned as being there. If you recall the law brought death because no one could keep it. Once we have Jesus we do not need any law. His law is love. That is the law of heaven!

Are the ten commandments the law of God? Were they only for earth, or the universe? You are correct that the law is love. But didn't Jesus say that all the law and the prophets hang on love? Those ten precepts are love in detail. Was murder, jealousy, pride, selfishness, lying, gossiping, idolatry, covetousness, adultery, theft acceptable in heaven so long as everyone loved each other,??? That doesn't make much sense does it. The entire sanctuary and all the furniture was based on a blueprint given to Moses...a copy of the true tabernacle in heaven. Everything, literally even the colors and decorations, had their counterpart in the heavenly sanctuary. Including the ark and what was in it... The law. The ark was a representation of God throne, and the law was that which was the foundation of His government.

 

[Enoch111]

Including the ark and what was in it... The law.

I believe that those two tablets of stone are actually in Heaven, along with the Ark.

 

[dad]

Are the ten commandments the law of God? Were they only for earth, or the universe? You are correct that the law is love. But didn't Jesus say that all the law and the prophets hang on love?

I think the ten commandments are a great memorial for a museum or temple in heaven. Folks in heaven having been made perfect will probably not really need those tablet rules in the way ancient Israel did. The law is in our hearts. But in any case, when we are told the ark of His covenant is in a temple in heaven, that really does not say that all the universe will be primarily concerned with the ten commandments. Maybe that was a way to show sinful man, before Jesus came, that he was really falling short of the standards of heaven? We will not be falling short in the world to come.

Those ten precepts are love in detail. Was murder, jealousy, pride, selfishness, lying, gossiping, idolatry, covetousness, adultery, theft acceptable in heaven so long as everyone loved each other,???

Those are issues for fallen man on earth I would think to work out. I suspect that having Jesus covers all that is needed in heaven.

The entire sanctuary and all the furniture was based on a blueprint given to Moses..

Which in turn all pointed to Jesus coming one day! That was the idea. Not some impossible to keep insane works trip.

.a copy of the true tabernacle in heaven. Everything, literally even the colors and decorations, had their counterpart in the heavenly sanctuary. Including the ark and what was in it... The law.

The ark contained the tablets as well as other remembrances of what God did for Israel in the past. Since it was called the ark of the 'covenant' we know that we have a new covenant now. The ark in heaven will reflect that. The idea with the ark was the presence of God with man. Emmanuel (Jesus) later took over that role. Naturally we would not need the ark on earth any more at all after that.

The ark was not some works trip of death. It was the symbol of God being present with man. He paid the price for sin, and no one ever kept those commandments. They did not therefore bring life! They showed man that he fell short of the glory of God and needed Jesus. Period.

 

[dad]

I believe that those two tablets of stone are actually in Heaven, along with the Ark.

Me too. What a great memorial and reminder to future generations and all the universe. That makes me think that there will not just be amazing mansions in heaven, but also probably some really great museums, memorials and places of remembrance.

 

[dad]

I think the government warehouse thing was a reference to the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark, dad. I think he was kidding with you. :)

It was. And there is a warehouse in Virginia that carries the name "Indiana Jones Warehouse." The warehouse used for that final shot. I forget who held the interview with a researcher that had the government number of the warehouse. He claims there are multiple warehouses in Virginia that house "National Treasures" that would have long ago been lost in some obscure dusty Museum basement. The researcher was the one that revealed the name "Indiana Jones Warehouse."

The ark is a treasure of heaven, not the USA, so it will not be anywhere in the piles of dusty rubbish there.

 

[PinSeeker]

Believing what is said is red hot, not stone cold.

Total non sequitur...

What would be cold is ignoring that the ark was never lost and will never be found on earth, and the great significance that occurred when that ark was taken by God to heaven.

<eye roll> A total miss of the purpose that the ark served in the days of the ancient Israelites... and that it serves for us today. The object lesson that is was, and is. For all of Israel, which is a people, both then and now.

Is this an admission you wave away creation in six days as well as the Rapture before the wrath?

Yet again... Wow. Just wow... I dismiss nothing. But I do believe very differently from you with regard to eschatological things. The whole dispensational understanding of Scripture and what will unfold at the end of the age is very wrong. Again, I don't dismiss or wave away anything... How many times have I said that now? I've lost count... but I certainly believe some things some people have put out there, and particularly what John Nelson Darby started in the 1830s in the so-called Enlightement and so many western Christians have taken and run with ever since, is a terrible departure from Scripture. But you know, a) it's not a salvific thing ~ not essential to our salvation ~ and b) it will unfold as God has said, two things that I'm sure we will agree on, so I think we can both live with and be okay with that difference of opinion.

Right, there are usually elaborate explanations as to why when it says His ark of the covenant is in a temple in heaven, it reaallly doesn't mean it.

This is only a characterization ~ a mischaracterization, so a caricature, really ~ and mere demagoguery. Now that I will dismiss and wave away. The crux of what I have said is that John's Revelation has been taken out of its whole context. Not that it really can be; it is what it is. But still, that's why there is such misunderstanding today. But you will throw that right back at me, I'm sure, and that's... okay. :)

It is OK, especially if you could provide evidence and or bible support. However, I would also ask for an explanation as to why God would allow the ark to be abused by man, when the Old Testament made it clear He did not. I would also ask for a reason why you claimed it was not in heaven.

Going to parse this out:

"It is OK, especially if you could provide evidence and or bible support... I would also ask for a reason why you claimed it was not in heaven."

Well, a) I did, and b) what good would it do to explain anything to anybody if, in their intransigence, they refuse to listen?​

"However, I would also ask for an explanation as to why God would allow the ark to be abused by man, when the Old Testament made it clear He did not."

I have never suggested such a thing, nor would I.​

I would also ask for a reason why you claimed it was not in heaven.

See above. I have answered this a couple of times at least, now. But you dismiss and wave that away, and that's... okay with me. :)

continued...