Assurance of salvation:

[Helen]

Because I have heard them, and the negative response I get when I say or post things that is supported in the Bible, that should be known to them if they were really studying the entire Bible.

Our relationship is not with the Bible...it is with a Person.
A person in leadership who is lead by the Holy Spirit may well not use even a "handful" of scriptures. He ( The Holy Spirit) may only use one scripture.

Life ( in any meeting) is not found in 'preaching scriptures', be it few or many, life is all about hearing His Voice via the impartation of the Holy Spirit.

It is the Spirit which gives life, not just the scripture .

2 Cor. 3:6 " Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

 

[bbyrd009]

and going OT,

"For a meaning of the name Azubah, NOBSE Study Bible Name List reads Forsaken. Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names has Deserted.

There are three Azubahs mentioned in the Bible:
...The third time the name Azubah occurs is in a small array of nicknames that the prophet Isaiah assigns to Zion and Jerusalem (Isaiah 62:4)..." The amazing name Azubah: meaning and etymology

you might bring your understanding of what "3" means to this also

1My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?b

Why are You so far from my deliverancec

and from my words of groaning?d, e

2My God, I cry by day, but You do not answer,

by night, yet I have no rest.

hardly sounds like a perspective that Christ would hold, does it
שבק | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (Old Testament Aramaic)

a Dialectician would have a good lie for this,
but since i am still learning there i'll say i should maybe have added
"when you get to the black hole, jump in."

 

[verzanumi24]

Our relationship is not with the Bible...it is with a Person.
A person in leadership who is lead by the Holy Spirit may well not use even a "handful" of scriptures. He ( The Holy Spirit) may only use one scripture.

Life ( in any meeting) is not found in 'preaching scriptures', be it few or many, life is all about hearing His Voice via the impartation of the Holy Spirit.

It is the Spirit which gives life, not just the scripture .

2 Cor. 3:6 " Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

The Bible was written and preserved for our learning, for correcting and instructing.

Romans 15:4 (KJV)
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

By studying God's word one is able to learn and grow.

2 Peter 3:18 (ASV)
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We should have the attitude of the Beroeans.

Acts 17:10-12 (ASV)
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.
12 Many of them therefore believed; also of the Greek women of honorable estate, and of men, not a few.

If one is not growing spiritually, then the person is spiritually dead.

Matthew 8:22 (CSBBible)
22

But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

 

[verzanumi24]

And understand also the parables contained in the OT. I would slow down the emphasis on what is wrong and increase the emphasis on what is right. But that is me.

What is right? You seem to have a handle on what you believe it to be. My handle is more on simply eating his flesh and drinking his blood so the right things will be available when they are needed.

Then you should know what I'm talking about, because the things I have been saying is what Jesus commands His people to do.

 

[verzanumi24]

As Pontius Pilate asked, "What is truth"? The answer of course as many church goers may know is "Jesus". The problem for some is they don't know much of anything about who Jesus is so their answer remains empty.

What is real humility before God? Even those who may have found it sometimes have failed to regularly practice it. Alone, we cannot.


Even among those who do read the scriptures regularly there are things that are not understood.

You have made a lot of decisions here. Hopefully you are not too far off on many of them.

Jesus stated it better.....He said God's word is truth. But how many christians study the Old Testament, because that's God's word as well. The Old Testament was what the early Church used for instruction and correction. So when you read in 2 Timothy 3:16, where it says, "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness", Paul was refering to the Old Testament. Excluding oneself from studying the Old Testament is like trying to put a puzzle togther with half of the pieces missing.

 

[Helen]

The Bible was written and preserved for our learning, for correcting and instructing.

Romans 15:4 (KJV)
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

By studying God's word one is able to learn and grow.

2 Peter 3:18 (ASV)
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We should have the attitude of the Beroeans.

Acts 17:10-12 (ASV)
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.
12 Many of them therefore believed; also of the Greek women of honorable estate, and of men, not a few.

If one is not growing spiritually, then the person is spiritually dead.

Matthew 8:22 (CSBBible)
22

But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

The bible without the Spirit is nothing more than an interesting book.

"It is The Spirit that giveth life."

 

[verzanumi24]

The bible without the Spirit is nothing more than an interesting book.

"It is The Spirit that giveth life."

That's a different story, but my point is, God's people study the Bible......that is how they learn and grow.

 

[H. Richard]

First let me make it clear that without Jesus shedding His blood on the cross there would never have been the Gospel of Grace. Nor would it be possible for mankind to have a personal relationship with God. So the blood is not the issue under discussion. This discussion is about going on from salvation to a personal relationship with God in our hearts.

Heb 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
(NKJ)

**Relationship = a connection, being related, connection by blood or marriage: kinship.

**Fellowship = companionship, brotherhood.

Let us consider Biblical relationships with God.

The scriptures say, that in the Garden of Eden, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God.

When Jesus spoke "to" God what did He call Him? Was it God? Was it Lord? Or was it Father?

What kind of relationship is spoken of in these verses?

John 17:11
11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
(NKJ)

John 17:20-26
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
(NKJ)

Jesus was the Son of God. His relationship with His Father was a personal one. His prayer is that we are as close to the Holy Father in a relationship as He was. His desire is that we become one in a personal relationship with both of them.

The scriptures teach that we are children of God and have a Father to child relationship.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
(NKJ)

I Jn 3:1
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(NKJ)

A fellowship is a relationship.

1 Cor 1:9
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(NKJ)

I Jn 1:3
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

A personal relationship with God is our calling as children of God. It is a "fellowship" with Him. The scriptures "do not" teach that a personal relationship with a religion is a substitute for a personal relationship with Jesus in the heart.

Let it be seen, that to SAY “a personal relationship with God” is not taught in the scriptures is an extremely false statement.

 

[verzanumi24]

First let me make it clear that without Jesus shedding His blood on the cross there would never have been the Gospel of Grace. Nor would it be possible for mankind to have a personal relationship with God. So the blood is not the issue under discussion. This discussion is about going on from salvation to a personal relationship with God in our hearts.

Heb 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
(NKJ)

**Relationship = a connection, being related, connection by blood or marriage: kinship.

**Fellowship = companionship, brotherhood.

Let us consider Biblical relationships with God.

The scriptures say, that in the Garden of Eden, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God.

When Jesus spoke "to" God what did He call Him? Was it God? Was it Lord? Or was it Father?

What kind of relationship is spoken of in these verses?

John 17:11
11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
(NKJ)

John 17:20-26
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
(NKJ)

Jesus was the Son of God. His relationship with His Father was a personal one. His prayer is that we are as close to the Holy Father in a relationship as He was. His desire is that we become one in a personal relationship with both of them.

The scriptures teach that we are children of God and have a Father to child relationship.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
(NKJ)

I Jn 3:1
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(NKJ)

A fellowship is a relationship.

1 Cor 1:9
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(NKJ)

I Jn 1:3
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

A personal relationship with God is our calling as children of God. It is a "fellowship" with Him. The scriptures "do not" teach that a personal relationship with a religion is a substitute for a personal relationship with Jesus in the heart.

Let it be seen, that to SAY “a personal relationship with God” is not taught in the scriptures is an extremely false statement.

The gospel of Grace is not The Gospel. The gospel of Grace was a mininstry that was given to the apostle Paul, but he never replaced the gospel of the kingdom of God for the gospel of Grace. The main message Paul preached was the gospel of the kingdom of God. Grace was the ministry that he talked about to those who heard him preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. The problem now is, the majority of the churches have now subsituted the gospel Jesus commaned His people to preach to all Nations and replaced it with a message about Jesus or about grace.

 

[amadeus]

i'm struggling with how to present...the dialectic nature of Scripture (which is not the Book of Truth, remember) here, without sounding like i am saying "a lie is the truth" lol. It's more like "truth is contained in the opposite" or something like that,
"Together with the adjective φιλος (philos) beloved or friend: the adjective φιλοθεος (philotheos), meaning god-friendly or god-loving (2 TIMOTHY 3:4 only). This word is the reversed of the name Theophilus, which belonged to the man to whom the gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts were dedicated..." What God is and what God is not

but i'll keep looking. However the gist is that virtually nothing a Logical thinker interprets from Scripture can be correct, and that the Bible is lying to us on purpose

You should in any case speak, if you can, in a language that people understand. "Christians" often speak in a language with which you are familiar, but you may have to use special words which require additional interpretation. For some it will all be Greek to them anyway and they certainly do not understand Greek. Still even if they understand you, it would not be the first time God sent a man with message that He knew no one was willing to receive. God sent them anyway:

"And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;
Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.
But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted." Ezek 3:4-7

 

[verzanumi24]

First let me make it clear that without Jesus shedding His blood on the cross there would never have been the Gospel of Grace. Nor would it be possible for mankind to have a personal relationship with God. So the blood is not the issue under discussion. This discussion is about going on from salvation to a personal relationship with God in our hearts.

Heb 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
(NKJ)

**Relationship = a connection, being related, connection by blood or marriage: kinship.

**Fellowship = companionship, brotherhood.

Let us consider Biblical relationships with God.

The scriptures say, that in the Garden of Eden, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God.

When Jesus spoke "to" God what did He call Him? Was it God? Was it Lord? Or was it Father?

What kind of relationship is spoken of in these verses?

John 17:11
11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
(NKJ)

John 17:20-26
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
(NKJ)

Jesus was the Son of God. His relationship with His Father was a personal one. His prayer is that we are as close to the Holy Father in a relationship as He was. His desire is that we become one in a personal relationship with both of them.

The scriptures teach that we are children of God and have a Father to child relationship.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
(NKJ)

I Jn 3:1
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(NKJ)

A fellowship is a relationship.

1 Cor 1:9
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(NKJ)

I Jn 1:3
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

A personal relationship with God is our calling as children of God. It is a "fellowship" with Him. The scriptures "do not" teach that a personal relationship with a religion is a substitute for a personal relationship with Jesus in the heart.

Let it be seen, that to SAY “a personal relationship with God” is not taught in the scriptures is an extremely false statement.

Men like David, Samuel, Moses had a personal relationship with God, which was before Jesus shed His blood.

 

[amadeus]

Then you should know what I'm talking about, because the things I have been saying is what Jesus commands His people to do.

Should I? Have you?
While I am still growing, I have been listening to His voice, but have not heard what you are saying. Could it be that I am a different part of the Body of Christ than you are? I guess maybe I need to await further instructions on that from the Head.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus stated it better.....He said God's word is truth. But how many christians study the Old Testament, because that's God's word as well. The Old Testament was what the early Church used for instruction and correction. So when you read in 2 Timothy 3:16, where it says, "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness", Paul was refering to the Old Testament. Excluding oneself from studying the Old Testament is like trying to put a puzzle togther with half of the pieces missing.

Much study of the scriptures, all of them, without the quickening of the Holy Spirit will still only result in a "weariness of the flesh" [ Ecc 12:12 ]. Have you never met an atheist who was also a Bible student?

 

[verzanumi24]

You should in any case speak, if you can, in a language that people understand. "Christians" often speak in a language with which you are familiar, but you may have to use special words which require additional interpretation. For some it will all be Greek to them anyway and they certainly do not understand Greek. Still even if they understand you, it would not be the first time God sent a man with message that He knew no one was willing to receive. God sent them anyway:

"And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;
Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.
But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted." Ezek 3:4-7

The scripture say that we are to study to show ourself aprove and rightly deviding the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

One cannot do that if they are not willing to go deep into the meaning of words, and in this case the Greek and or Hebrew. The word that is translated divide means to dissect.....take it apart like when a student in science class dissect a frog. One cannot learn all they need to learn what God has to say from just looking at the surface.

 

[verzanumi24]

Much study of the scriptures, all of them, without the quickening of the Holy Spirit will still only result in a "weariness of the flesh" [ Ecc 12:12 ]. Have you never met an atheist who was also a Bible student?

All I can do is point or show someone what I see or understand. I can't make the indivdual understand. Jesus preached the kingdom of God for three and a half years, but only a very few believed Him and became His disciples.

 

[verzanumi24]

Should I? Have you?
While I am still growing, I have been listening to His voice, but have not heard what you are saying. Could it be that I am a different part of the Body of Christ than you are? I guess maybe I need to await further instructions on that from the Head.

Jesus said His sheep hears His voice and follow Him. He didn't say certain parts of the body of Christ would not hear Him. If there is anything that I have said that that is not inline with what Jesus said show it to me.

 

[amadeus]

The scripture say that we are to study to show ourself aprove and rightly deviding the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

One cannot do that if they are not willing to go deep into the meaning of words, and in this case the Greek and or Hebrew. The word that is translated divide means to dissect.....take it apart like when a student in science class dissect a frog. One cannot learn all they need to learn what God has to say from just looking at the surface.

I believe that you misunderstand what the verse is saying. It is saying to study NOT to obtain answers but to show ourselves approved unto God. To me that means to study out of obedience. I do study in order to be obedient. Understanding when and if it is received does not come from the study but from the Holy Ghost:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Triumph1300]

Because I have heard them, and the negative response I get when I say or post things that is supported in the Bible, that should be known to them if they were really studying the entire Bible.

Really?
You heard our pastor preach?

 

[verzanumi24]

Really?
You heard our pastor preach?

I was speaking in general as well as those that I have conversed with.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus said His sheep hears His voice and follow Him. He didn't say certain parts of the body of Christ would not hear Him.

All of us who are His sheep hear Him. What we hear if what applies to us as the part of the Body of Christ that we are.

If there is anything that I have said that that is not inline with what Jesus said show it to me.

Are you asking me to teach you? The starting place is always in the "lowest room". Anyone who starts higher than that may find himself back at the beginning in any case:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

To me this means come to God each time effectively with a clean slate: no preconceived notions allowed, no established doctrines set in concrete, etc. If anything we already had before was correct or good, God will certainly reinstate it in us, won't He? If He does not, then I would guess that it has no place in us.