Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

[ScottA]

doxastically closed

Oh that's rich!

Famous last words--more personal psychological projections, blaming everyone else and taking your toys and going home.

The "hypocrisy" is in your own inability to face the honest truth while seeking it.

Change was in order, but apparently you could not. Makes one wonder what it is you think you are here for, both here and in the world. If you do ever come out of that close-minded state, you will realize that the reception you have received here has been an honest reaction to all of what you now have wrong. It has been the most appropriate response, without enabling you to continue in error of ignorance. It is the truth you are searching for.

But your biggest error was in not realizing that while the masses "believe", the core of Christianity is based on the only actual "knowledge" known to man. History establishes it from the very beginning.

Nonetheless, the door is still open, and the choice is yours.

 

[Berserk]

As I read everyone's responses to my posts, it has become evident to me that many members of this forum are doxastically closed. Therefore, I won't continue to waste my time here since most of this forum's members are obviously more interested in submitting to confirmation bias than thinking critically. I'm also disappointed but not surprised that so many professed "Christians" fail to recognize the hypocrisy in their condescending and discourteous attitude towards people like me. I've tried continuously to be respectful and considerate in my interactions with everyone only to receive ad-hominem attacks in return. If your goal is to establish an echo chamber by driving away anyone who might offer valid reasons to challenge your beliefs, then my departure should bring you closer to achieving that goal. I'm confident that the particular forum members for whom this message refers will likely entrench themselves even further in their unfalsifiable beliefs and respond to this post with even more ad-hominem attacks and other logically fallacious arguments, but maybe some of you will recognize where such behavior only serves to validate my point about the effects of confirmation bias. I sincerely want Christians, other religious people, and nonbelievers to peacefully coexist in this world where we can agree to cooperate towards maximizing well-being and minimizing unnecessary harm for the most people, but this can't happen if we aren't willing to acknowledge the possibility of being mistaken in our unfalsifiable beliefs. With that, I take my leave from this forum and will seek collaboration with a more receptive audience.

I promised a thorough engagement with your epistemology and all I asked is a good faith gesture to assure me that your own "confirmation bias" doesn't prevent you from the hard work of reexamining your core assumptions--and you have declined. Your responses to me about NDEs and ADCs demonstrate a very superficial grasp of this type of evidence and you are obviously clueless about the evidence for Christ's resurrection. The 2 short videos I asked you to watch present a new type of paranormal evidence of which you seem oblivious and can serve as a foundation for presenting even better evidence gained from my own encounters. Too bad!

 

[humbleseeker]

I haven't read all this thread but assuming BGE and Vince are not trolling I can sympathize with their honest questions seeking truth. For me personally here are some "evidence" that I find supports my faith.
- anthropic principle, the incredibly small tolerances required of the many physical constants required to support life clearly point to a supreme designer
- Resurrection of Jesus, disciples changed from hiding in fear to 100% committed to willingly sacrifice their lives after witnessing the resurrected Jesus.
- Something from nothing, sorry Mr. Hawking, this violates the 1st LAW of thermodynamics. I don't buy the "something from nothing can occur due to quantum fluctuations of a metastable bubble in a vacuum" explanation.
- The meditations of Descartes are a beautiful demonstration of intense logic and reason. See his 3rd meditation "of God, he exists".
- I am more than a "complex meat computer" ! I reject that my existence is simply a random meaningless biological accident compelled to survive and procreate strictly for the survival of the species. Seriously, we all intuitively know better than that.
- Personal experience, I have experienced things in my life I can only describe as divine intervention.
- Old testament prophesies about messiah
- legit Christian conversions. I've seen bad people change and live according to christian principles to the benefit of their families, friends, coworkers, communities, etc... permanently (remaining life)
- more later

 

[Nancy]

I haven't read all this thread but assuming BGE and Vince are not trolling I can sympathize with their honest questions seeking truth. For me personally here are some "evidence" that I find supports my faith.
- anthropic principle, the incredibly small tolerances required of the many physical constants required to support life clearly point to a supreme designer
- Resurrection of Jesus, disciples changed from hiding in fear to 100% committed to willingly sacrifice their lives after witnessing the resurrected Jesus.
- Something from nothing, sorry Mr. Hawking, this violates the 1st LAW of thermodynamics. I don't buy the "something from nothing can occur due to quantum fluctuations of a metastable bubble in a vacuum" explanation.
- The meditations of Descartes are a beautiful demonstration of intense logic and reason. See his 3rd meditation "of God, he exists".
- I am more than a "complex meat computer" ! I reject that my existence is simply a random meaningless biological accident compelled to survive and procreate strictly for the survival of the species. Seriously, we all intuitively know better than that.
- Personal experience, I have experienced things in my life I can only describe as divine intervention.
- Old testament prophesies about messiah
- legit Christian conversions. I've seen bad people change and live according to christian principles to the benefit of their families, friends, coworkers, communities, etc... permanently (remaining life)
- more later

Welcome Humbleseeker,
I agree with all you wrote, and there is many more logical reasons too add, but I'll let you finish this post.
I think it must be much harder to NOT have faith in God than it does TO have faith in Him

 

[humbleseeker]

Thank you Nancy. I cherish my faith above all else, but as an engineer also fully appreciate the scientific method. I'm always seeking to streamline and summerize the difficult philosophical and scientific questions that many struggle with, in a way that enhances their relationship with God. God is not afraid of difficult questions.

To think that our rich spiritual/physical existence began via an accidental quantum fluctuation from NOTHING to a point of singularity with zero volume and infinite mass which then exploded resulting in our universe is more than my common sense can allow.

 

[Nancy]

Thank you Nancy. I cherish my faith above all else, but as an engineer also fully appreciate the scientific method. I'm always seeking to streamline and summerize the difficult philosophical and scientific questions that many struggle with, in a way that enhances their relationship with God. God is not afraid of difficult questions.

To think that our rich spiritual/physical existence began via an accidental quantum fluctuation from NOTHING to a point of singularity with zero volume and infinite mass which then exploded resulting in our universe is more than my common sense can allow.

Ha, yeah... more than my common sense can allow too. God created science after all! Good that you are tackling these questions as, you never know who might "see" Truth in His Words. Press on soldier!

 

[Truth OT]

I've noticed there are a few atheists who visit CyB forum.

I'd like to pose a question to them and to those who have had conversations with atheists:

What are the reasons why atheists reject the evidence for God's existence?

Oz

I am not a theist. I hope that I am fair-minded enough to be able evaluate any evidence and take my beliefs where the truth leads. I do want to point out that there can be a distinction between why a person believes something and evidence for that belief. In other words, a person rejecting your point of view or your conclusion about evidence is not always the same as them rejecting evidence. I am open to evidence and am willing to evaluate any that is provided.

 

[ScottA]

I am not a theist. I hope that I am fair-minded enough to be able evaluate any evidence and take my beliefs where the truth leads. I do want to point out that their can be a distinction between why a person believes something and evidence for that belief. In other words, a person rejecting your point of view or your conclusion about evidence is not always the same as them rejecting evidence. I am open to evidence and am willing to evaluate any that is provided.

All the world is evidence from God. As for evidence from people, there is none, for it is not from people, but to people from God.

If you are looking to people to provide evidence of God, you are looking in the wrong place. There you will only find testimonies.

 

[Truth OT]

God - the entity that acted as the will and might that caused existence to come about.

I don't have a credible argument against such an entity being a possibility. I'd go as far as saying that asking for evidence for or against this entity being real is rather futile.
Having said that, an issue as it relates to this entity only arises when a person or group makes the claim that not only do they know this entity is real, but that they somehow know that this entity as a will for mankind and they know the details of its will. In response to that claim, I and others ask, "prove it."

 

[Truth OT]

All the world is evidence from God.

The existence of the worlds are evidence, but evidence of what exactly? YOU say they are evidence for (I presume) the god you believe in. I do nt reject the world, I just have not been given evidence that substantiates YOUR claim that the world itself is evidence for your god. Can you prove that what YOUR CLAIM is that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality?

 

[ScottA]

The existence of the worlds are evidence, but evidence of what exactly? YOU say they are evidence for (I presume) the god you believe in. I do nt reject the world, I just have not been given evidence that substantiates YOUR claim that the world itself is evidence for your god. Can you prove that what YOUR CLAIM is that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality?

On the contrary, you have been given the evidence, not from me, but from God. But what you may not have been given is the ears to hear or the eyes to see it. Which is its own testimony and confession--yours. Which also proves nothing against the truth that you may or may not perceive. It simply proves that you are without. In which case...you should ask, not of people, but of God. And if you have already...did you expect a complete answer over just part of your life, or would you like both to be complete now? Be careful what you ask for.

 

[Truth OT]

On the contrary, you have been given the evidence, not from me, but from God.

What evidence? Again, I have YOU making a claim about what you believe and somehow subconsciously conflating your perspective with reality. Just because YOU BELIEVE in a god does not make what YOU BELIEVE right about god. Again, the burden of proof is on YOU to

 

[ScottA]

What evidence? Again, I have YOU making a claim about what you believe and somehow subconsciously conflating your perspective with reality. Just because YOU BELIEVE in a god does not make what YOU BELIEVE right about god. Again, the burden of proof is on YOU to

Now...I just told you and you already commented on it...so, slow down:

All the world is evidence from God.

But...no, I am not making a claim. I have and do and will give you my personal testimony--but that is my evidence, not yours. Your evidence is between you and God. Thus, the burden of proof is NOT on me, nor could it be.

Oh...and if we are talking about me... I do NOT "believe", I know.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

What evidence? Again, I have YOU making a claim about what you believe and somehow subconsciously conflating your perspective with reality. Just because YOU BELIEVE in a god does not make what YOU BELIEVE right about god. Again, the burden of proof is on YOU to

By u asking for evidence I'm assuming you look 4 patterns of nature or coherency right?

 

[Truth OT]

I have and do and will give you my personal testimony--but that is my evidence, not yours. Your evidence is between you and God. Thus, the burden of proof is NOT on me, nor could it be.

You are special pleading. Evidence is evidence. This "my" and "your" concept is flawed. The only thing particular to the individual is the conclusion drawn from the evaluation of the evidence. You are saying "here's what the evidence says to me and my conclusion about what it says is correct and true." I then am asking for you to provide proof that YOUR CONCLUSION is if fact in line with the evidence. Why is that asking too much?

I could claim that Shoung Shunn Shee is the ultimate being in existence and Triple S created the Earth and I know this to be true because Triple S's essence resides in me and has reveal these "truths" to me. Neither you nor I can prove or disprove Triple S's existence, but it would be up to be to affirm it if I claimed detailed knowledge.

 

[ScottA]

You are special pleading. Evidence is evidence. This "my" and "your" concept is flawed. The only thing particular to the individual is the conclusion drawn from the evaluation of the evidence. You are saying "here's what the evidence says to me and my conclusion about what it says is correct and true." I then am asking for you to provide proof that YOUR CONCLUSION is if fact in line with the evidence. Why is that asking too much?

I could claim that Shoung Shunn Shee is the ultimate being in existence and Triple S created the Earth and I know this to be true because Triple S's essence resides in me and has reveal these "truths" to me. Neither you nor I can prove or disprove Triple S's existence, but it would be up to be to affirm it if I claimed detailed knowledge.

No, on the contrary, it is you who are expecting special treatment...and I am telling you that is not reality. These are not your rules.

You don't have to like it, but you are wrong. But don't misunderstand, I am not claiming anything, nor do I have a need or interest in offering proof. You on the other hand are fishing for proof with the wrong bait. Whether or not you personally go home hungry in this matter, is completely on you.

What you are asking is indeed too much, because you don't even know the terms or that your method of seeking the knowledge will not only get you no where, but it is impossible--it doesn't work that way. You are attempting to wag the dog by demanding proof from fleas who are just sharing their own personal findings and experiences. Stop being ridiculous and get with the program.

To your credit, you have determined that we can offer you no proof--not because we don't have it, but because it is not transferable. You may as well go to a cemetery and ask the dead about life after death. But it's not our lack, it's yours. You are like a blind man asking for visible proof of sunsets. You should be asking, "How do I get this sight you speak of?" But you are predictable. If you asked correctly, you again would ask for proof and get nothing all over again. Such a circle of repeated failure is the definition of insanity.

Change your approach.

 

[Berserk]

TruthOT:

Please respond to these 7 questions which are designed to determine whether I should continue to dialogue with you and whether I consider you intellectually honest about your quest for the purpose of your life:

(1) If God exists and rejects your agnosticism as a productive way to discover your true purpose in life, would you even want to know that?
(2) Would you agree that if there is a loving God, then that God has the right to establish that intellectual and experiential path to discovering His existence and to establishing a personal relationship with Him?
(3) If you had an apparent encounter with God that seemed beyond doubt at the time, would you agree (a) that there might be self-authenticating experiences of an intimate connection with the Christian God and (b) that you would become a Christian if such a mystical experience were sufficiently compelling as a connection with that God?
(4) What if God exists and would only reveal Himself to your satisfaction if you were willing to make service to His cause your top priority? Would you then be willing to pay that price to know by direct experience that He exists?
(5) If eyewitness testimony makes it more likely than not that Jesus rose from the dead, would you agree that it is more likely than not that the God of love that Jesus proclaimed exists? If the answer is yes, then we can discuss the evidence for the credibility of this eyewitness testimony.
(6) Near-death experiences purport to demonstrate that there is an afterlife and that one experiences overwhelming love from a nonhuman source when one has an NDE. Would you agree that if the afterlife realm of pure unconditional love that NDEers experience is real, then it is more reasonable than not to believe in a God of love? If your answer is yes, then we can identify and discuss the evidence for its reality.
(7) If you could be convinced that when people with faith pray for the sick or disabled and these people are then healed, then is it more likely than not that prayer can unleash power from a nonhuman source that makes such miracles possible? If the answer if yes, then we can discuss the evidence for the miraculous power of prayer.

 

[Dan57]

God - the entity that acted as the will and might that caused existence to come about.

I don't have a credible argument against such an entity being a possibility. I'd go as far as saying that asking for evidence for or against this entity being real is rather futile.
Having said that, an issue as it relates to this entity only arises when a person or group makes the claim that not only do they know this entity is real, but that they somehow know that this entity as a will for mankind and they know the details of its will. In response to that claim, I and others ask, "prove it."

There is no direct or verifiable evidence of God. There is no factual or objective evidence that proves God. We are called by faith. However, there is historical, archeological, and prophetic evidence that suggest the bible is true. This subjective evidence lends credibility to the bible, but its not definitive proof. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead" (Romans 1:20). There aren't any scientific facts that tell us how everything originated, how we got here, the meaning of life, or our purpose. So for myself, the bible is the best explanation.

Its also relevant that God reveals himself to those who seek Him (knocks). He is revealed in spirit & truth, not physical observation, science, or tangible evidence. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and revelation of scripture is what opens the eyes of those who earnestly seek him. Belief is ultimately a choice, and we are called by faith for good reasons.. jmo

 

[Heart2Soul]

I've noticed there are a few atheists who visit CyB forum.

I'd like to pose a question to them and to those who have had conversations with atheists:

What are the reasons why atheists reject the evidence for God's existence?

Oz

I have met a few atheists in person in a casual setting and for whatever reason the conversation always comes to the topic of God.
I remember one in particular claiming to be an atheist but I discerned this was a lie....I told him you are not an atheist....I said something in your life turned you away from God and it was easier to claim He doesn't exist than to believe He could allow such thing to happen.
He eventually admitted that he used to believe until.....(will keep it private)....and after that he didn't want to believe.

 

[Truth OT]

TruthOT:

Please respond to these 7 questions which are designed to determine whether I should continue to dialogue with you and whether I consider you intellectually honest about your quest for the purpose of your life:

(1) If God exists and rejects your agnosticism as a productive way to discover your true purpose in life, would you even want to know that?

Lookie here, homework! I'll indulge.
If a god, many gods, or any gods exist, I'd want to know.

(2) Would you agree that if there is a loving God, then that God has the right to establish that intellectual and experiential path to discovering His existence and to establishing a personal relationship with Him?

I guess. What power could say no to a god powerful enough to bring about existence.

(3) If you had an apparent encounter with God that seemed beyond doubt at the time, would you agree (a) that there might be self-authenticating experiences of an intimate connection with the Christian God and (b) that you would become a Christian if such a mystical experience were sufficiently compelling as a connection with that God?

I actually thought that I had not only encountered by interacted with my God on a spiritual level on many occasions in the past. My mind, my heart created a relationship based on what I thought was true. Too bad what I thought was true was only real in my heart.
If a god showed up and demonstrated that it had godlike power I would believe it existed. For me to go back into Christianity, the god would have demonstrate that it was not only powerful, but also honest and loving. If it did that and vouched for Christianity, I could fall in line.

(4) What if God exists and would only reveal Himself to your satisfaction if you were willing to make service to His cause your top priority? Would you then be willing to pay that price to know by direct experience that He exists?

Been there, tried that. Was willing to buffet my body daily as Paul said for the Lord. Becoming a servant that was well-pleasing in His sight was my life's main goal for decades.

(5) If eyewitness testimony makes it more likely than not that Jesus rose from the dead, would you agree that it is more likely than not that the God of love that Jesus proclaimed exists? If the answer is yes, then we can discuss the evidence for the credibility of this eyewitness testimony.

It would seem that you have some arguments to put forth that you feel are compelling. I'll hear them, but I must let you know that as a former christian apologist of sorts, I may have made those same arguments.
Why should the reports of those who claimed to have interacted with eyewitnesses be given full credibility as truth?

(6) Near-death experiences purport to demonstrate that there is an afterlife and that one experiences overwhelming love from a nonhuman source when one has an NDE. Would you agree that if the afterlife realm of pure unconditional love that NDEers experience is real, then it is more reasonable than not to believe in a God of love? If your answer is yes, then we can identify and discuss the evidence for its reality.

No. NDEs proving no proof of an afterlife that I am aware of.

(7) If you could be convinced that when people with faith pray for the sick or disabled and these people are then healed, then is it more likely than not that prayer can unleash power from a nonhuman source that makes such miracles possible? If the answer if yes, then we can discuss the evidence for the miraculous power of prayer.

If evidence showed that the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous objectively effected health outcomes at a clip that was significantly above that of chance, then I would have to give it credence.