Baptism

[Wormwood]

One of the Strong's definition for "baptize" is to immerse. You can of course, be immersed in water. You can also be immersed in thoughts, study, a project or a particular lifestyle or idealogy. You and I are immersed in this conversation. I am not saying that definition applies all the time, but when we are speaking of being baptized (immersed) in Christ it makes sense and is the appropriate definition. It certainly makes more sense than being dipped in Christ.

The word "baptize" in the Greek is an onomatopoeia. That is to say, the word sounds like what it is describing. The same could be said of English words like "smack" "pop" or "sizzle." Bap - tis - o in the Greek is meant to sound like the act. Just imagine someone doing a cannonball in a swimming pool. There is the bap- of the skin hitting the water and the tis-o of the water sloshing or splashing. That's why I like to compare it to the word "dunk." The Greeks thought of the sound of the act with this word. We simply transliterated it into English, which is somewhat unfortunate because it has taken on more of a spiritual meaning when the Greeks didn't use it this way in the 1st century.

I agree you can be plunged in darkness, or deep in thought. These are metaphors because they are a means of trying to paint a literal picture of something more abstract. So yes, just because a word generally is associated in a particular way, it can certainly be used metaphorically to describe something else. So I could say "The man was breathing heavily." We assume he was breathing air. Or, I could say, "The dragon was breathing fire." Here I have qualified this breathing. My basic point is, if I don't specifically qualify the breathing or use it metaphorically (i.e. I opened the bottle to let the wine breathe) then we know I am speaking about lungs and air. We don't assume we are talking about wine or fire unless I indicate as much. Someone would not naturally assume breathing involves fire or wine. I hope this makes sense.

Does the NT talk about being baptized in/by the Spirit? Yes. Does Jesus use baptism metaphorically to describe his death? Yes. Should we assume, therefore, that whenever baptism is used it is speaking of death....or the Spirit? Of course not. Again, I see a very strong link between Spirit baptism and water baptism. I believe baptism is a sacrament...that is to say that the physical act corresponds to a spiritual reality. Thus, the two mirror one another.

Acts 1:5 KJV
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I completely agree that the power and hope of our Christian faith is receiving the Holy Spirit. John's baptism marked a moment of change for people. They would turn their lives around and walk in a new path. The hope we have in Christ is not just the desire to change and live different, but a power from on high that empowers us to do so. That is the promise and certainly water baptism means nothing if it is not accompanied by the Spirit. Please do not misunderstand my emphasis on water baptism to be an undermining of the coming of the Spirit. As we are immersed in the water, we are promised to be washed and be immersed in the Spirit (at least that is how I read Acts 2:38 and the other passages we have mentioned.) Obviously the baptism the Apostles received was unique in that they received the Spirit through supernatural tongues of fire that appeared over them. However, I don't think this is normative or something every believer should expect (especially when Peter teaches in Acts 2 what people were to do in order to receive the Holy Spirit...namely repent and be baptized if they believed his message.

I am going to start a new message for Matt. 28 since I think it is going to take some more detail. Sorry to make this long...apparently I cannot help myself.

 

[Wormwood]

“καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων·
ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ [τῆς] γῆς.
πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη,
βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,
διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν·
καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθʼ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.” (Matthew 28:18–20, NA27)

Ok, this is how the passage looks in Greek. Notice the three words I put in bold print. Each one of these ends in "ντες". This ending indicates that these words are participles. Participles in English are basically words that end in "ing." So the three bold words are

going (or more literally, "having gone out" because this is in the aorist passive tense)
baptizing
teaching

The word that I underlined has a τε ending. This indicates an imperative or command. "You make disciples." In Greek, the word order doesn't always matter the same way it does in English. This command is clearly the focus of the sentence. It is what Jesus is telling them to do. The translation looks like this...

πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη,
Having gone out, therefore, you make disciples all the nations

βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,
baptizing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν·
teaching them to keep all whatever the commands to you

καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθʼ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.”
and look I with you I am all the days until the completion of the age/eternity.

So, I like "make disciples" much better. It is a command based on the word matheteo, which goes beyond just teaching someone. It means to become attached to someone and become their follower in doctrine and life. Jesus is commanding them to create these kinds of followers who model their message and life. This happens as they are going out, baptizing and teaching. I just don't see any way this would have been understood to be equating teaching with baptizing.

I know you may not agree, but at least I hope you can see a little better how it would have been seen by the early readers and how they would have broken up the sentence by the command and the describing participles....that are easy to pick out the way their language is structured.

 

[FHII]

The word "baptize" in the Greek is an onomatopoeia. That is to say, the word sounds like what it is describing. The same could be said of English words like "smack" "pop" or "sizzle." Bap - tis - o in the Greek is meant to sound like the act. Just imagine someone doing a cannonball in a swimming pool. There is the bap- of the skin hitting the water and the tis-o of the water sloshing or splashing. That's why I like to compare it to the word "dunk." The Greeks thought of the sound of the act with this word. We simply transliterated it into English, which is somewhat unfortunate because it has taken on more of a spiritual meaning when the Greeks didn't use it this way in the 1st century.

I agree you can be plunged in darkness, or deep in thought. These are metaphors because they are a means of trying to paint a literal picture of something more abstract. So yes, just because a word generally is associated in a particular way, it can certainly be used metaphorically to describe something else. So I could say "The man was breathing heavily." We assume he was breathing air. Or, I could say, "The dragon was breathing fire." Here I have qualified this breathing. My basic point is, if I don't specifically qualify the breathing or use it metaphorically (i.e. I opened the bottle to let the wine breathe) then we know I am speaking about lungs and air. We don't assume we are talking about wine or fire unless I indicate as much. Someone would not naturally assume breathing involves fire or wine. I hope this makes sense.

Does the NT talk about being baptized in/by the Spirit? Yes. Does Jesus use baptism metaphorically to describe his death? Yes. Should we assume, therefore, that whenever baptism is used it is speaking of death....or the Spirit? Of course not. Again, I see a very strong link between Spirit baptism and water baptism. I believe baptism is a sacrament...that is to say that the physical act corresponds to a spiritual reality. Thus, the two mirror one another.



I completely agree that the power and hope of our Christian faith is receiving the Holy Spirit. John's baptism marked a moment of change for people. They would turn their lives around and walk in a new path. The hope we have in Christ is not just the desire to change and live different, but a power from on high that empowers us to do so. That is the promise and certainly water baptism means nothing if it is not accompanied by the Spirit. Please do not misunderstand my emphasis on water baptism to be an undermining of the coming of the Spirit. As we are immersed in the water, we are promised to be washed and be immersed in the Spirit (at least that is how I read Acts 2:38 and the other passages we have mentioned.) Obviously the baptism the Apostles received was unique in that they received the Spirit through supernatural tongues of fire that appeared over them. However, I don't think this is normative or something every believer should expect (especially when Peter teaches in Acts 2 what people were to do in order to receive the Holy Spirit...namely repent and be baptized if they believed his message.

I am going to start a new message for Matt. 28 since I think it is going to take some more detail. Sorry to make this long...apparently I cannot help myself.

Yea, I saw that onomatopoea in the Batman series. Adam West punched the Joker in the face and he fell into a swimmiing pool. Then, of course, they put the action dialogue bubble on the screen and is said "baptismo"!

Sorry, Wormwood. I vowed not to be a smart-alec... But its still in me and I couldn't resist.

I am bowing out with my concluding comments. I believe in water baptism and have no problem with it. But I don't believe all baptisms involve water and I don't believe it is a "must happen" thing.
I also don't look at baptism without water (as in with fire, in Christ, with the HG) as mere metaphors.

You posted about Mat 28, and I aopreciate your response. The problem is you are going back to the original greek. You are attempting to retranslate what has alredy been translated. I acknowledge your intelligence and knowledge, but I stand with the KJV translation. I have tools to look at the original greek and have an above average grasp on history. Not enough though to question what translation we have. Unless you can fluently speak greek, I will stand by my analysis of the verse.

If you have anything new to add, I will entertain your comments. But with giving due respect and thankfulness for the discussion, I have nothing more to add.

 

[Wormwood]

FHII,

Thanks for the conversation. I appreciated it. If nothing else, perhaps we each have a better grasp of why each of us holds to our position.

I would only add that the "metaphor" I was speaking of related to Jesus "drinking from a cup" or being "baptized with the baptism." I think these are metaphors referring to his suffering and death. I dont think he was talking about literally drinking from a cup or literally getting baptized. He was talking about a bitter gulp of suffering and plunging into the grave.

Also, I appreciate a good Batman show...it would have been even better if they had thrown up a good "BAP-TISO!" Get em for Jesus, Batman.

 

[mjrhealth]

I would only add that the "metaphor" I was speaking of related to Jesus "drinking from a cup" or being "baptized with the baptism." I think these are metaphors referring to his suffering and death. I dont think he was talking about literally drinking from a cup or literally getting baptized. He was talking about a bitter gulp of suffering and plunging into the grave.

Amen to that.

 

[Truth]

At the Baptism of John, John said that he needed to be Baptized by Jesus, But Jesus said no baptize Me to fulfill all Righteousness, just paraphrasing, you get the point! If it is a fulfilling of Righteousness, then have at it! no harm, no shame. John was Baptizing for repentance of transgression of the Mosaic Law. Also Baptism was nothing new to the Hebrew people, they called being immersed in water Mikvah, which means moving water in the Hebrew language. this was something they would do before entering into the Temple Courts! there were many Mikvah pools throughout the area in Jerusalem. Basically get clean before you come to the House Of God!!! Baptism is the same !! get clean from sin, Find Salvation, have your sins washed down stream, as far as the east is from the west, the symbolism of both are the same.

 

[bbyrd009]

Amen to that.

batman though arg lol

 

[Truth]

If you think about it!!!!!!! the key word is think, ok! there is Baptism of repentance, baptism of Identification, Baptism of the Spirit, and Baptism of suffering. If they hated Me they will hate you for My Name Sake, He also asked the two disciples that had their mother ask Him if they could sit, One at His Right Hand, and the other at His Left Hand in the Kingdom, He Said! are you able to drink The Cup that I am about to Drink, and be Baptized with the Baptism that I am Baptized with? posted this Monday, was interrupted by a believer that wanted to discuses the word and couldn't finish. all I was trying to get across was that there are more than One Baptism, not trying to push others into something their not called to do!

 

[DPMartin]

well it seems in discussions like this on baptism, that there are those who do walk in the baptism not the Lord's of course, but of the same, and there are those who insist everyone else should walk in the baptism according to there own judgement of what God's baptism is.

Jesus didn't insist anyone walk His walk, unless the Father called them to.

 

[Helen]

well it seems in discussions like this on baptism, that there are those who do walk in the baptism not the Lord's of course, but of the same, and there are those who insist everyone else should walk in the baptism according to there own judgement of what God's baptism is.

Jesus didn't insist anyone walk His walk, unless the Father called them to.

Good post...Amen. I wish others would see that too , rather than judge other peoples lives. So many ( and I have probably done the same in the past) try to "be" the Holy Spirit in other peoples lives, rather than praying for them so that they 'hear' what God is speaking for the next step in their walk.

 

[DPMartin]

Good post...Amen. I wish others would see that too , rather than judge other peoples lives. So many ( and I have probably done the same in the past) try to "be" the Holy Spirit in other peoples lives, rather than praying for them so that they 'hear' what God is speaking for the next step in their walk.

very well said

 

[speedyj1992]

Yes indeed totally agree. As we know, some are 'hard and fast' on it...as Job above mentioned ..people don't 'have' to be baptized..but if God speaks to the heart..then for sure we should.
Years ago when we became Christians our Pastor was 'hard and fast' on it, we we all did.
I am not hard and fast...but will always mention it to new Christians as an invitation.
I liked what I heard...that it is a mile stone of our walk..and a place we can point to , when the Devil comes sniffing around trying to tell us that we are not 'really' saved.
Then we can say to the Devil. "No chance, I was buried with Him in baptism- "Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also we are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead."
Personally , praise God, I have never had my salvation challenged in that way...but I have a good Christian friend, even a preacher, who is solid for months on end, then suddenly blown sideways again, or no reason...except by listening to the lies of the devil saying- " Not good enough..you can never measure up..you aren't really saved." It always blows my mind that a solid Christian can fall for that...but obviously some do.
Legalists will always say the baptism is a requirement.

It can be really hard for us to fall into legalism in a number of areas, and baptism is a big one. One thing that really helps put baptism in its place is a somewhat unrelated verse, Matthew 9:13, which says in the ESV, "Go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." God wants our HEARTS, and baptism is a big gesture that's supposed to be an extension of how we gave our hearts to God. If someone is really resisting baptism, they likely need to check their hearts. That's my 2 cents, anyway.

 

[Grams]

All saved persons have been made members of the Body of Christ by One divine baptism (this is baptism into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit). By that ONE BAPTISM, every member of the Body of Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In light of the statement concerning the "ONE BAPTISM" in Ephesians 4:5 and the statement in I Corinthians 1:17 that "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel", we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace

So if you read this close to your mind and heart, you will see that we have ths
all upon belief!

 

[ScottA]

All saved persons have been made members of the Body of Christ by One divine baptism (this is baptism into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit). By that ONE BAPTISM, every member of the Body of Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In light of the statement concerning the "ONE BAPTISM" in Ephesians 4:5 and the statement in I Corinthians 1:17 that "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel", we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace

It is true, water baptism has no saving quality in and of itself. It is also true that just as we need not continue to offer sacrifices which pointed to Christ's sacrifice, likewise, it would seem unnecessary to be baptized since we now have the baptism of the Holy Spirit...except, that it still points to the baptism of the Holy Spirit for those needing to be pointed in the right direction. For this reason, those who baptize during these times should explain that it is now merely a signpost.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus didn't insist anyone walk His walk, unless the Father called them to.

"Anyone who cannot deny themselves and pick up their cross and follow Me cannot be my disciple."

 

[bbyrd009]

All saved persons have been made members of the Body of Christ by One divine baptism (this is baptism into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit). By that ONE BAPTISM, every member of the Body of Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In light of the statement concerning the "ONE BAPTISM" in Ephesians 4:5 and the statement in I Corinthians 1:17 that "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel", we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace

So if you read this close to your mind and heart, you will see that we have ths
all upon belief!

wow Grams, never thought you'd go there lol, i am surprised. That is a very sacred cow to be killing lol

 

[Grams]

wow Grams, never thought you'd go there lol, i am surprised. That is a very sacred cow to be killing lol

Groper, I just do not understand what your saying there ?

 

[bbyrd009]

Groper, I just do not understand what your saying there ?

ah well, did you say that you don't recognize ritual water baptism? I'm not familiar with this, it is Berean?

 

[Grams]

ah well, did you say that you don't recognize ritual water baptism? I'm not familiar with this, it is Berean?

When I was Catholic I believed in this ! "But now that I am in the bible and no religion" , I know that is in the past!
[ " We do go to Church , just a bible church." ]
Before the Cross......... Now we have it all upon belief in what JESUS did for us at the Cross !!!

 

[pia]

I received the Holy Spirit first and when told of baptism, I just had an intense desire to do so and did...It was marvelous !