Baptizing... babies?...!

[Frank Lee]

I find my spirit agitated whenever I see a video of a baby being "baptized". That is being sprinkled with water or a water pistol filled with Holy water or some other method. Unless the baby has a good bath out of the ordeal the entire affair has been an exercise in spiritual futility. Babies are tiny little things but the error of calling their sprinkling a baptism is not tiny but large. It's only one thorn on the thornbush of dead religion.

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

First you have to believe. I'd be greatly amazed should an infant believe let alone be able to express that belief.

Supposedly mature men in the glamorous robes of their office doing what? A traditional ritual having nothing to do with salvation. They really think that it's beneficial, scriptural which completely stupefies me. They are not even aware that they themselves are unredeemed and are passing on their dead traditions to another generation.

One of the strongest words Jesus ever spoke to me was one night as I prayed outside up in a cleared out spot on our place. I'd been praying for sometime and was about to go back to the house. As I went to leave He spoke and said so powerfully in my spirit "EVERY GENERATION I HAVE TO BEGIN ALL OVER AGAIN". It's so true. Every new batch of babies has never heard of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, sin or anything having to do with eternal life. God's work begins again and He must work through new generations of believers.

My baptism to me was a serious affair several months after I had been visited by Jesus, saved then baptized in the Holy Spirit. This gave me time to learn more about it. My dear brother Jimmy just a few years younger, was baptized with me. It was a cold winter's day and we had to break ice an inch thick on those Arkansas River backwaters. My wife told me I had a visible glow when I came home. That's the way a baptism should be. The glow, less the icy waters of course.

At what point did these infants make their profession of faith? Why would a rational adult be intimidated by the traditions of their denomination so that the Scriptures of the Bible are tread under foot? Once again tradition trumping the word of God. How many infants do we see being baptized in the new testament? Surely the fear of man brings a snare! Do I make too much of this practice? Which part of evil are we to ignore?

Proverbs 29:25 (NKJV)
The fear of man brings a snare,
But whoever trusts in the Lord shall be safe.

Tevye in fiddler on the roof said it with authority, "TRADITION"! That's it. He was Jewish of course but the plague of the fear of men sees no cultural or spiritual lines. Peer pressure is a powerful influence. Even deadly. The spirit gives life the letter kills.

I realize that the men who perform such acts are not born again Christians but labor under the false beliefs of their religion. The blind sprinkling the newly arrived. God said it first;

Isaiah 29:13 (NKJV)

Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,

The ignorant and unsaved ministers of these dead denominations practice the same empty rituals on so called adults. My unsaved mother in law, now deceased, was "baptized" by her unsaved Methodist pastor by dipping a rose into Methodist holy water and spring her with it. Now, isn't that just about the sweetest thing you ever heard of? Land o' Goshen! Frighteningly, an entire building full of ignorant people sat and nodded their approval. No one was benefitted of course. My wonderful wife continued to minister to the poor ignorant woman and a change was seen in her before death. We can only hope she really met Jesus.


After being childless for 14 long lonely years Jesus saved me, baptized me in the Holy Spirit, gave me the gift of tongues and began to speak to my wife and I regarding the son He was going to send us. We were amazed and excited. My wife's body was allergic to my seed and killed it on contact. The doctors could do nothing but Jesus could. Many afflictions awaited us before God's promise was fulfilled but certainly it was. We met much ridicule, unbelief and cold indifference but Jesus my wife and I had the last laugh. One thing He said to me was so great, "the mouths of the scoffs will be shut at the telling" and they were! On October 9th,1979 the Holy Spirit told me Martha was pregnant. The lab agreed. Nathan, our promise from God, was born on June 25,1980.

Nathan is a spirit filled Christian, minister and student of Israel. God did good!

As our children were born we dedicated each and every one of them to the God who sent them, Jesus is His first name. They were not sprinkled, spritzed, dunked, squirter, deluged or drizzled. They were anointed by their father - me - with oil and prayed for. Also by the elders of our church. They all came to know Jesus at an early age and after that were baptized in the good old Biblical John the Baptist method of going under then coming back up.

After experiencing all of this and cheerfully pouring our lives into our God given children, it's impossible to sit and be silent. They casually with non-existant authority say that this is a directive of the savior.

Our surviving children serve God to this day. Joanna, born after Nathan, became a Christian at about five years of age and there was no doubt she knew Him! She died at fifteen thanks to a drinking driver. But glory to God we'll all be rejoined for eternity it in the place He's made for us.

Joanna's last Christmas, December 1996.

As I have opportunity I will denounce the ways of religion and dead denominations that deceive, stumble and lead astray multitudes. If our government isn't able to have the babies aborted and stand up for the women that kill them, then dead denominations lead those children astray from the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's way too late in my journey to nod in agreement with things I know are not right just to smooth things over.

Psalms 94:16 (NKJV)
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers?
Who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?

Evil doers? But they're dressed so nice, so clean and have such wonderful manners. The things they say are so sweet! Satan never comes as a snarling rabid beast but as an angel of light. Speaking the truth in love doesn't mean we have to coo like doves. That's not love.


Psalm 55:21 KJVS
The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

If the truth is an affront to someone's actions then it will cause anger and resentment to rise up in them every time. Hopefully the false teachers that practice these things against the word of God will be able to see the light of the gospel and be convicted and saved. Believers must be willing to speak out against error and leave their place of silent anonymity.

 

[Sword]

As much as I like so most of your post. I cant agree with it all. The church leaders who are leading away are not rexpocible for leading them away as they do it without understanding. and the people who are lead away are lead obviously by the same manner. with leaders who were wrongly lead in the theological collages. Blind leading the blind. The theological teachers are a mixed bunch. Some homosexual, some like it as a job. Most unbelievers but are qualified as theologins. Some ministers are only in it for a job and dont believe a word. So we know the unspiritaul cant lead the spiritual. They are mostly in a ditch. If the blind take theres kids to be baptised. At leat some are trying to honour god and do it with a misunderstand but right heart. We cant be harsh towards the blind. its not there fault. we do need to ask God for His heart so we can love and see them as He sees them. This is why I tell people in here they dont offend me. I will not be offended by anyone who does not know any better. and that is the case for most christians. I mean 99% of them. I added 6 or so people in here to the ignore list. They refush to listen. so fine I will not debate with the wilffully ignorant. They are losing out on so much. I see people healed on almost a daily basis. and most in here have zero interest. We have a thread in here on the weather were you are. satan loves that garbage stealing our dreay lives with no power. We have no power because we have no proper teaching from the collages. we have no leaders because of all the confusion accross the Christian world. There is always Gods remanant accross the world who are walking in power simply because they are available to God. I have sin in my life, but God still wants to heal through me today and every day.

 

[Deborah_]

I agree in principle with some of what you say, but I am well aware that those churches that 'baptise' babies also believe that they have Biblical support for what they do. I'm not going to defend them (because I don't agree with their conclusions), but I can at least understand why they do as they do. And not all of them are "dead churches", by a long way. Many are full of Spirit-filled, active, loving Christians... who were baptised only as babies. And to be perfectly honest, they don't seem to be any the worse for it.

Consider this: in the 2000 years of Church history, probably at least 90% of evangelism and other Kingdom-extending work has been done by Christians baptised in infancy. God doesn't seem to find it as much of a problem as some people think He ought to.

 

[Job]

I added 6 or so people in here to the ignore list. They refush to listen.

That's because you say stuff like this:

The church leaders who are leading away are not rexpocible for leading them away as they do it without understanding. and the people who are lead away are lead obviously by the same manner.

Your statement is completely false and here's why.

Matthew 15
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”


Your teaching's are false.

j

 

[Marymog]

I find my spirit agitated whenever I see a video of a baby being "baptized". That is being sprinkled with water or a water pistol filled with Holy water or some other method. Unless the baby has a good bath out of the ordeal the entire affair has been an exercise in spiritual futility. Babies are tiny little things but the error of calling their sprinkling a baptism is not tiny but large. It's only one thorn on the thornbush of dead religion.

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

First you have to believe. I'd be greatly amazed should an infant believe let alone be able to express that belief.

Supposedly mature men in the glamorous robes of their office doing what? A traditional ritual having nothing to do with salvation. They really think that it's beneficial, scriptural which completely stupefies me. They are not even aware that they themselves are unredeemed and are passing on their dead traditions to another generation.

One of the strongest words Jesus ever spoke to me was one night as I prayed outside up in a cleared out spot on our place. I'd been praying for sometime and was about to go back to the house. As I went to leave He spoke and said so powerfully in my spirit "EVERY GENERATION I HAVE TO BEGIN ALL OVER AGAIN". It's so true. Every new batch of babies has never heard of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, sin or anything having to do with eternal life. God's work begins again and He must work through new generations of believers.

At what point did these infants make their profession of faith? Why would a rational adult be intimidated by the traditions of their denomination so that the Scriptures of the Bible are tread under foot? Once again tradition trumping the word of God. How many infants do we see being baptized in the new testament?

Tevye in fiddler on the roof said it with authority, "TRADITION"! That's it. He was Jewish of course but the plague of the fear of men sees no cultural or spiritual lines. Peer pressure is a powerful influence. Even deadly. The spirit gives life the letter kills.

As our children were born we dedicated each and every one of them to the God who sent them, Jesus is His first name. They were not sprinkled, spritzed, dunked, squirter, deluged or drizzled. They were anointed by their father - me - with oil and prayed for. Also by the elders of our church. They all came to know Jesus at an early age and after that were baptized in the good old Biblical John the Baptist method of going under then coming back up.

If the truth is an affront to someone's actions then it will cause anger and resentment to rise up in them every time. Hopefully the false teachers that practice these things against the word of God will be able to see the light of the gospel and be convicted and saved. Believers must be willing to speak out against error and leave their place of silent anonymity.

Hi Frank,

Wow. What a testimony. Joanna reminds me of my sister in law. She died in June of 1997 also, just like Joanna. Same scenario. Very sad. My prayers are with you.

I see over the last couple of months you have been getting your message out on 5 different websites. You are obviously very passionate about your message and belief. I am glad you have joined us and are getting your message out.

Frank, I don't want you to fall for the traditions of Protestantism so I am going to try and help you out by teaching you history. I know that you are an older (older than me) gentleman and I want you to KNOW the traditions of Christianity. Not the last 500 years that you profess but the last 1,900 years. You mention tradition several times so it must be important to you.

For over 1,800 years Christians have baptized infants. The first mention of infant baptism is in the year 189AD by Irenaeus of Lyons. That means it was a COMMON practice of Christians BEFORE he wrote it because Irenaeus wouldn't mention it unless it was a common practice.

So when you talk about the TRADITIONS of infant baptism, YOUR stated tradition of NOT baptizing infants began 500 years ago. Your tradition is only 500 years old. Which tradition do you choose? The written traditions of 2nd century Christians (which were more than likely implemented by the 1st century Christians) or the traditions of the Reformation, 1,800 years later? Tough decision, Huh?

Can you, Frank Lee, show me in scripture where one needs to be submerged to have an official BAPTISM? Jesus came up out of the water but it NEVER said he was submerged. You and others are inserting that into scripture. Scripture NEVER says one must be submerged and the Greek definition of baptism does NOT support submersion. Are you adding too or twisting scripture to support your personal belief? If Nathan, as a child, is waist deep in water would tell him to "come up out of the water" even though he was obviously not submerged? Of course you would.

Are you aware of over 1,900 years of Christian writings and TRADITION that the practice of baptism did NOT include submersion? Talk about TRADITION. You should be happy you don't have to be submerged . Especially if you have a fear of water or are medically unable to be submerged. The Didache, written during the time of the Apostles, says SPRINKLING (pouring on three times) is acceptable. You say it isn't. Who should I believe? The Christians who walked and talked with the Apostles or YOU? Tough decision.

Where in scripture does it say that children are to be "anointed by their father with oil and prayed for"? If you are practicing something contrary to scripture and then trying to get us, the common Christian, to practice your beliefs then are you not starting a NEW TRADITION? Is it ok for you to start a tradition but not anyone else?? I am a bit confused. When did this TRADITION of being anointed by their father with oil begin?

You stated, "One of the strongest words Jesus ever spoke to me...". So I ask you, Frank Lee, how do you know that Jesus didn't speak to the 1st Century Christians and Church Fathers that Infant Baptism was required or acceptable so that the infant may obtain salvation? Why did he speak to you and not them? Where in scripture does it say that 'infants have to make their profession of faith'? It's not in scripture so don't bother searching.

You asked, "How many infants do we see being baptized in the new testament?" The New Testament says that entire families and households were baptized. Are you saying that NO INFANTS were in the family/household? Is that logical? I must remind you that scripture only provides a few examples of the THOUSANDS of families/households that were baptized in the 1st Century. Are you saying there were NO INFANTS in those THOUSANDS of households/families??

You accuse others of not being aware that they themselves are unredeemed. That, my Christian Brother, is a tough accusation. Is it POSSIBLE that you are UNAWARE??? NO need to answer; just dwell on that question.

I suspect that what I have said is an affront to YOUR actions and that it will cause anger and resentment to rise up in you. I don't want you to be angrey. I just want you to look at this in a logical, historical and biblical way instead of thru the lens of 500 years of TRADITION. Tradition that you seem to despise so much.

Love, Mary

 

[Sword]

If it was in the bible it would be fine I dont really care to much about what history says to be honest. So mary if you gave us something that the scriptures said that would be fine, but history pointless really dont ya think so? Holds no value or authority like Gods word does.

 

[Marymog]

If it was in the bible it would be fine I dont really care to much about what history says to be honest. So mary if you gave us something that the scriptures said that would be fine, but history pointless really dont ya think so? Holds no value or authority like Gods word does.

Dear Sword,

History is pointless? No, I don't think so.

Show me in the bible where "Gods word" said, "These 73 (or 66) books belong in the bible!!"

HISTORICALLY we know how they decided 1700 years ago on what 73 books belong in the bible. And historically we know how 500 years ago some decided what 66 books REALLY belong in the bible.

Are you sure you want to throw out history? Because you would then have to throw away your bible which are HISTORICAL writings.

Good luck....Love Mary

 

[Helen]

Consider this: in the 2000 years of Church history, probably at least 90% of evangelism and other Kingdom-extending work has been done by Christians baptised in infancy. God doesn't seem to find it as much of a problem as some people think He ought to.

True and well said. I think that God doesn't sit and 'wring His hands .' over many things that 'we' seem to get all hot and concerned about , or see as some problem.

 

[Marymog]

True and well said. I think that God doesn't sit and 'wring His hands .' over many things that 'we' seem to get all hot and concerned about , or see as some problem.

90% of evnagilism and other kingdom extending work has been done by Christians baptized as infants? Not sure where the 90% figure comes from but sure. Let's go with that.

If God was against infant baptism he would not have allowed the preaching and teaching of those 90% to flourish and prosper. RIGHT? So i guess God is ok with infant baptism. Some MEN are not.

Mary

 

[Sword]

Dear Sword,

History is pointless? No, I don't think so.

Show me in the bible where "Gods word" said, "These 73 (or 66) books belong in the bible!!"

HISTORICALLY we know how they decided 1700 years ago on what 73 books belong in the bible. And historically we know how 500 years ago some decided what 66 books REALLY belong in the bible.

Are you sure you want to throw out history? Because you would then have to throw away your bible which are HISTORICAL writings.

Good luck....Love Mary

I never said I want to thow out history you said that . I said I dont care to much about history. Please quote me if you are ever going to refer to what I said or never said thank you.

History will teach us nothing to do with God. He gave us His word for that and nothing else. Gods word is not historical writings. Its the living Word that still speaks into the hearts of people today. Your selling it short lowering Gods word like any old history book.

 

[Sword]

90% of evnagilism and other kingdom extending work has been done by Christians baptized as infants? Not sure where the 90% figure comes from but sure. Let's go with that.

If God was against infant baptism he would not have allowed the preaching and teaching of those 90% to flourish and prosper. RIGHT? So i guess God is ok with infant baptism. Some MEN are not.

Mary

No that is called free will. is God ok with our free will and every thing we do. No He gave us free will. e decide what we do with it not God, Was God ok with hitler no. did He stop him no. Is God ok with it no. Your talking like God would stop things He doesnt like. Does he like abortions two per second world wide. No does He stop them ? No.

 

[Mungo]

Paedobaptism -A Catholic Perspective

Should babies/infants be baptised? The answer depends on whether baptism has some spiritual value. There is no point if it doesn't - for example if baptism is just getting wet, or just a public witness that a person has "accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour".

But if baptism has spiritual value then it is justified. Indeed Justification is the most important aspect of this.

The Council of Trent defines Justification as "being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour." (sess 6 Chap IV)

According Paul in the letter to the Romans chap 5
12. "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned"
Who was this one man? Adam.

It continues
17 "If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
18 "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."
19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."

Adam's sin affected all mankind; it affected our nature and brought death into the world and we became separated from God and subject to condemnation.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1Cor 15:22).
When we are born we are "in Adam". We need to be "in Christ". So that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom 8:1)

Paul says in Eph 2: "we [Christians] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But in Gal 3:25 he says "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God"

When we are "in Adam" we are "children of wrath" but when we are "in Christ" we are children of God.

That movement from being "in Adam", subject to death, subject to condemnation, being "children of wrath", to being "in Christ", made alive, brought out of condemnation, being children of God, is effected by baptism.

We born "in Adam" but to have life we must be "born again", renewed, born by the Spirit in baptism (John 3:5, Ti 3:5).

When we are baptised we "put on" Christ (Gal 3:27); we become part of the body of Christ, and therefore children of God (1Cor 12:13); we become part of a new creation in Christ (2Cor 5:17); we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)

Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."(Jn 3:5) and yet he also says "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 19:14)

All this is good and necessary for adults. All this is equally good and necessary for children.

As the Bible says "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." (Acts 2:39).

 

[epostle1]

I never said I want to thow out history you said that . I said I dont care to much about history. Please quote me if you are ever going to refer to what I said or never said thank you.

History will teach us nothing to do with God. He gave us His word for that and nothing else. Gods word is not historical writings. Its the living Word that still speaks into the hearts of people today. Your selling it short lowering Gods word like any old history book.

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.
"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word

 

[epostle1]

Paedobaptism -A Catholic Perspective

Should babies/infants be baptised? The answer depends on whether baptism has some spiritual value. There is no point if it doesn't - for example if baptism is just getting wet, or just a public witness that a person has "accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour".

But if baptism has spiritual value then it is justified. Indeed Justification is the most important aspect of this.

The Council of Trent defines Justification as "being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour." (sess 6 Chap IV)

According Paul in the letter to the Romans chap 5
12. "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned"
Who was this one man? Adam.

It continues
17 "If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
18 "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."
19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."

Adam's sin affected all mankind; it affected our nature and brought death into the world and we became separated from God and subject to condemnation.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1Cor 15:22).
When we are born we are "in Adam". We need to be "in Christ". So that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom 8:1)

Paul says in Eph 2: "we [Christians] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But in Gal 3:25 he says "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God"

When we are "in Adam" we are "children of wrath" but when we are "in Christ" we are children of God.

That movement from being "in Adam", subject to death, subject to condemnation, being "children of wrath", to being "in Christ", made alive, brought out of condemnation, being children of God, is effected by baptism.

We born "in Adam" but to have life we must be "born again", renewed, born by the Spirit in baptism (John 3:5, Ti 3:5).

When we are baptised we "put on" Christ (Gal 3:27); we become part of the body of Christ, and therefore children of God (1Cor 12:13); we become part of a new creation in Christ (2Cor 5:17); we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)

Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."(Jn 3:5) and yet he also says "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 19:14)

All this is good and necessary for adults. All this is equally good and necessary for children.

As the Bible says "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." (Acts 2:39).

That's a good biblical basis for original sin. If a person rejects the BIBLICAL doctrine of original sin, then explaining infant baptism is almost impossible. We acquire original sin without a conscious choice, therefore it an be removed without a conscious choice.

 

[Sword]

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.
"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word

History has value to a point obviously. But none of it is devinely inpired for out learing or edification in any way shape or form. The point being the world of God is final in all things.

 

[epostle1]

History has value to a point obviously. But none of it is devinely inpired for out learing or edification in any way shape or form. The point being the world of God is final in all things.

Do a search in any Bible search engine. I like BibleGateway. Search "word of God" and you will get 180-200 results, depending on the translation. I haven't found ANY that confines "word of God" to the written word alone. Maybe you can. The point being there is more to the word of God than what is written. Tradition is not an add on but flows from the same wellspring as Scripture. It transmits the word of God differently and that does not make it inferior to Scripture. History helps us understand the oral and written word of God in a deeper way.

 

[bbyrd009]

i don't believe that Word is written or oral, but i gave that a like on principle

90% of evnagilism and other kingdom extending work has been done by Christians baptized as infants? Not sure where the 90% figure comes from but sure. Let's go with that.

If God was against infant baptism he would not have allowed the preaching and teaching of those 90% to flourish and prosper. RIGHT? So i guess God is ok with infant baptism. Some MEN are not.

Mary

fwiw i would like to suggest that our ritual baptisms are irrelevant, and there are real baptisms to endure; the water, spirit, and fire ones.

 

[bbyrd009]

We acquire original sin without a conscious choice

imo this misreps the doctrine, which explicitly states that we are "born sinners."

so iow i agree with you, but then this is not the doctrine of OS.

 

[bbyrd009]

The point being the world of God is final in all things.

which is another path to discerning the Word, if you will but attempt to post any "truth" from the Book--which is not the Word--and witness the results, which i should not have to tell you will be unresolved conflict, when some other poster brings out that the Book is not as definitive as you might like to believe--as opposed to Word, which cannot be questioned.

 

[Sword]

Do a search in any Bible search engine. I like BibleGateway. Search "word of God" and you will get 180-200 results, depending on the translation. I haven't found ANY that confines "word of God" to the written word alone. Maybe you can. The point being there is more to the word of God than what is written. Tradition is not an add on but flows from the same wellspring as Scripture. It transmits the word of God differently and that does not make it inferior to Scripture. History helps us understand the oral and written word of God in a deeper way.

No I think you will find Gods word is complete or it is for me. Why do you feel the need tio make me belief what you think you need to help you. If you understand God properly that it is a relationship and we have no need of any man to teach us anything. as He will teach us all things. SO you look up the books written by men and I will stivk with the bible. Please dont feel that I am missing out on anything . You are intitled to do what ever you like. Thank you.