Becoming a perfect Disciple of Christ

[Randy Kluth]

Grace helps us overcome our fallen, sin nature, but it doesn't replace it - not in this life-time, anyhow. Therefore the temptation to sin is always with us, and at some point, all believers give in to temptation and sin. Any believer who claims he never sins is even more deluded than the believer who claims he is already saved.

Furthermore, what is your definition of "sin"? You could be committing a sin without even realizing it's a sin. Even your thoughts can be sin.

I don't disagree with you that Christians, even with the new nature in Christ, have a Sin Nature. To overcome it means just that--we don't annihilate the Sin Nature--we *overcome it.*

What this means is that despite the flaws in our character, we are able to let the love of Christ rule in our hearts. It takes precedence over our wish to "get even," or "be proud." We can do the right thing.

 

[justbyfaith]

As I've pointed out to you before, none of verses say works are irrelevant to salvation and none of them say we are saved by faith alone. You've misinterpreted them.

Let the reader be the judge of that; if you will not see what is clearly written.

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I agree.
That passage also says we must keep his commandments to be "IN HIM" (v.5). So if you don't keep his commandments you are not "in him' and therefore won't be saved - you must be "in him" to be saved.

However, it does not teach that you enter into and remain in Him as the result of keeping His commandments. To be consistent with the rest of holy scripture, you must understand that we keep His commandments as the result of abiding in Him....and that we abide in Him through simple faith in Jesus Christ. I am speaking from experience and the word of God.

For we receive the Holy Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14); and the love of God through the Spirit (Romans 5:5). We bear the fruit of the Spirit (love); and against such there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23). Therefore, we have a righteousness of God apart from the law, that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets.

It comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

No, it doesn't. That is a childishly superficial, ignorant and illogical interpretation of that verse. Once again, you have read it literally when it is obvious - in light of the rest of the NT - that it shouldn't be read literally.

Again, I will let the reader decide.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here is my exegesis:

Jesus is making an absolute statement here; whenever He says Verily, verily, I say unto you, we are to take it as a statement of absolute truth.

He sets forth the condition for the promises given here: he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me.

The promise is that the person who does this 1) has everlasting life, 2) shall not come into condemnation, and 3) has passed from death unto life.

In 3) it is clear when compared with 1) that the person has passed from death into everlasting life.

Finally, the promise is implemented at the moment the condition is met first in the believer's life.

This is indeed a literal interpretation and solid exegesis.

I do believe that the scripture mandates interpretation of it as literal except in cases where it is clearly a parable or using figurative language when Paul says:

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Believers will be judged the same way Jesus judged the believers in the seven Churches in Rev 2, 3 - ie, by their faith and their works. Read it sometime.
In Rev 3:4, Jesus says certain believers are "worthy" of salvation, due to their good works. Read it sometime.

However, it does not say, in Revelation 3:4, that they are worthy because of their works; for they are worthy through sanctification; which comes by faith (Acts of the Apostles 26:18) and by the word of His grace (Acts of the Apostles 20:32).

 

[marks]

No, it doesn't. That is a childishly superficial, ignorant and illogical interpretation of that verse. Once again, you have read it literally when it is obvious - in light of the rest of the NT - that it shouldn't be read literally.

Obvious to you that you shouldn't believe what you read?

?

 

[RogerDC]

Paul is not teaching that a believer can end up in Hell.
Galatians 5 is talking about hyper religious self righteous people who are trusting in themselves to try to get into heaven, instead of trusting in Christ ALONE to keep them saved.
Paul says that this loss of real faith in Christ, is to become "fallen from Grace".
Fallen from Grace is to fall away from the knowledge of God's Grace, and backslide into "walking in the Flesh". = Self Saving.

In Gal 5:16-21, there is no mention whatsoever of any of faith. If lack of faith was the underlying concern, Paul would surely have pointed it out. Contrary to your claim, Paul specifically points out what the concern is - it is not lack of faith but "works of the flesh" - sin, in other words.

When Paul speaks of "fallen from grace" in Gal 5:4, he is referring to Christians who are being misled into following the law of Moses. That is a different matter altogether to the matter he addresses later in chapter 5, which is "works of the flesh".

Anyone with half a brain could see what Paul is warning believers about in Gal 5:16-21 - evil works, not lack of faith. And he clearly warns them that indulging in "works of the flesh" can result in them ending up in hell. But you flat-out deny the plain words of scripture and invent intelligence-insulting nonsense to defend your false "faith alone" and OSAS doctrines. Is your theology honest?

 

[justbyfaith]

I, who am not @Behold, would declare to you, @RogerDC, that the works of the flesh are overcome when we walk according to the Spirit (Galatians 5:16); the fruit of which is, among other things, faith (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[RogerDC]

I, who am not @Behold, would declare to you, @RogerDC, that the works of the flesh are overcome when we walk according to the Spirit (Galatians 5:16); the fruit of which is, among other things, faith (Galatians 5:22-23).

And if we don't overcome the works of the flesh we risk eternal damnation - so warns Paul in Gal 5. In other words, we are saved by faith and obedience (works), not faith alone.

 

[justbyfaith]

And if we don't overcome the works of the flesh we risk eternal damnation - so warns Paul in Gal 5. In other words, we are saved by faith and obedience (works), not faith alone.

We overcome the works of the flesh by abiding in Christ (1 John 3:6), and we abide in Christ by faith.

This is how we stay connected to the vine; through faith in Him (Romans 5:2, Colossians 2:6, Romans 1:17).

 

[Behold]

Ok, so, i thought i would reply to my own Thread regarding the Thread's Topic.

How do you become a perfect disciple of Christ?
You do this by Right Believing.

When you believe wrong, you live wrong. You will sin, and confess, and repent, and talk about "abiding" and talk about having "indwelling sin".
You will repent and tell other believers that they need to be repenting.
You will be condemned in your own mind, and worry about confessing and penance, and whatever else you have wrongly believed you are to DO as your idea of how to keep God and yourself in perfect Peace.

So, all that is a fail. Its failed Christianity.

Why does it continue to fail? Its because you are placing yourself under bondage to try to do what God has already provided for you.
You are caught up in "self" instead of being delivered from "self".

To be delivered from self EFFORT to try to please God which does not......as only FAITH Pleases God.. Hebrews 11:6 you have to learn how to believe right, as when you exit there, then your faith is correct and God is well pleased.

Correct faith understands that there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation., and there is nothing that you can do to Keep it.
Its is PROVIDED BY GOD and KEPT BY GOD.
The blood of Jesus that saved you, will keep you saved.
So, once you believe this, you will being to have real faith in Christ, which will Please God.

Also, You have to begin to believe that you are always at peace with God.
God is never angry with you or upset with you, nor does he hold you accountable for your sin in Eternity.
You will meet God as your FATHER, because Christ has taken care of all the reasons you would have instead met Him as Judge.
Once you learn how to believe this, you will begin to have real faith in Christ, and God will be very pleased.

 

[marks]

Also, You have to begin to believe that you are always at peace with God.
God is never angry with you or upset with you, nor does he hold you accountable for your sin in Eternity.
You will meet God as your FATHER, because Christ has taken care of all the reasons you would have instead met Him as Judge.
Once you learn how to believe this, you will begin to have real faith in Christ, and God will be very pleased.

And suddenly we understand how to keep God's commandment, Rejoice in the Lord always! And I say again, Rejoice!

(Not phony "theological joy" where, OK, I'm in misery, but I trust Jesus, so I know deep inside there's this joy, so deep down I can't feel it, but I know it's there . . . no . . . joy, meaning, really really happy!)

Much love!

 

[Behold]

[QUOTE="RogerDC, post: 795649, member: 8498"[/QUOTE]

Let me make it simple.
A person is born again.
Who did that? Did "abiding".? Did "commandment keeping". ? Did "enduring to the end" ?
So to be BORN AGAIN is the reason you go to heaven, as to be born again is the only real proof you belong to God.

What can happen is that a person does not understand this. And they think they are supposed to do something to help God out.
THey are to do something because the Blood of Jesus and the Cross, and Christ's death is not quite enough...
So, they become convinced that they are to produce a certain type of lifestyle that in their mind will keep them saved.

What has happened is that they have never understood the Grace of God, or, as Paul says about the Galatians...>"who has bewitched you...who has DECEIVED YOU.?
How and why have you stopped trusting in Christ alone to keep you saved and are now trying to keep yourself saved.
= FALLEN FROM GRACE.
= walking in the flesh.

 

[Behold]

And suddenly we understand how to keep God's commandment

Much love!

What commandment is that?
And why do you trust in commandments and not in Christ?

 

[marks]

What commandment is that?
And why do you trust in commandments and not in Christ?

Why do you say I'm trusting in a commandment??

 

[marks]

What commandment is that?

to keep God's commandment, Rejoice in the Lord always!

Much love!

 

[marks]

What commandment is that?

And upon reflection, this is, of course, how we keep all His commandments, thus being the perfect disciple.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Much love!

God's commandment is that you "believe on the One that He sent"...

How do you know this is the most important "command"?
Because you can keep all the other commandments, and die, and if you have not become born again..."believe on the One whom God sent', you will end up in Hell.
"Commandment keeping" is not related to being Born Again.
Jesus said..."you must be born again"...>He never said....>"you must keep commandments".

 

[Behold]

Why do you say I'm trusting in a commandment??

Because you believe that if you dont keep commandments, you won't go to heaven.

Isn't that what you believe?

Let me just ask you, and then we can save ourselves 34 Posts trying to find out what you are saying....

Do you believe that you can go to heaven, and never keep any of the 10 commandments, or the 2 commandments that Jesus gave?

Or do you believe that you have to keep commandments to go to Heaven. ????

 

[marks]

Because you believe that if you dont keep commandments, you won't go to heaven.

Isn't that what you believe?

Of course not!

 

[marks]

God's commandment is that you "believe on the One that He sent"...

How do you know this is the most important "command"?
Because you can keep all the other commandments, and die, and if you have not become born again..."believe on the One whom God sent', you will end up in Hell.
"Commandment keeping" is not related to being Born Again.
Jesus said..."you must be born again"...>He never said....>"you must keep commandments".

Don't you like doing what He said to be doing? This isn't about being reborn as you know. But to fully live the abundant life, well, it's described very well, I think, and part of it is always being really happy.

Not everyone understands what that is, and how life can be that way.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Don't you like doing what He said to be doing?

Fine then.

As long as we keep the "present your body a living sacrifice", as DISCIPLESHIP, then there is no issue with Grace.
All believers should live a life that is pleasing to God after God saves them...
Most believers, after God saved them, think they have to live a "good life", "keep commandments", and "confess and repent" and "abide" as their self redemption to try to STAY SAVED.
So, THAT is the problem.

 

[marks]

Fine then.

As long as we keep the "present your body a living sacrifice", as DISCIPLESHIP, then there is no issue with Grace.
All believers should live a life that is pleasing to God after God saves them...
Most believers, after God saved them, think they have to live a "good life", "keep commandments", and "confess and repent" and "abide" as their self redemption to try to STAY SAVED.
So, THAT is the problem.

Maybe not assume that Everyone thinks that way . . . I know quite a few who don't.

Your thread is . . . becoming a perfect disciple of Christ, and to me, being a perfect disciple is not just a matter of trusting Jesus but doing nothing. Now, doing does not save, but abundant life is not motionless.

To free oneself to live that life, we must become free from self-effort, learning to rest in Christ. But make no mistake, all the things God desires for us to do will become our desire when we do in fact sacrifice ourselves by ceasing self-effort. And in ceasing our own efforts, and trusting in Jesus' finished work, we find that the new creation is released to live abundantly in the grace we stand in because we are trusting Him.

Much love!