WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

[Timtofly]

We both read the verses of Revelation 20. One read it with a carnal mind. One read it with a spiritual mind. Who's right? The Lord judges.

The carnal mind would say the Day of the Lord has been the last 2 millennia. The spiritual mind would say the Day of the Lord is the spiritual millennium found in Revelation 20 after the Second Coming.

 

[rwb]

That resurrection has been ongoing directly into Paradise, since the Cross. Jesus told the thief, that he would enter Paradise, that day. One does not enter Paradise a naked soul, but clothed in God's permanent incorruptible physical body, per 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Mortal flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 15:50), and none shall be resurrected in physical immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Heaven is NOT a mortal, physical place. Heaven is the spiritual dwelling place of God and His angelic hosts. When we mortal humans die we do NOT enter heaven a physical body but a spiritual body of believers there. We shall not be made physical body again until the body is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Believers are not naked souls in heaven, we are as the angels of God there, spiritual body without physical form. When faithful saints rise from the dead a spiritual body in heaven, like the angels there will be no more marriage there. For we are the bride/wife of Christ, the holy city, new Jerusalem that will come down from heaven with Christ.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25 (KJV) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[rwb]

The text does not say "and they had lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

The passage tells us "they LIVED and REIGNED (past tense, before they were martyred) with Christ a thousand years", it does NOT say the lived and reigned AGAIN! Which is what the discussion is centered on. It doesn't need to say "had" because they lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years before they physically died. It is while they were still physically alive that they lived and reigned BEFORE they were martyred for their faith. That means they were still living souls after physical death a spiritual body of believers without mortal, corruptible body of flesh. For those who are living spiritual body in heaven after death the symbolic thousand years are past.

Then John writes that others called blessed and holy "shall reign" with Christ for a thousand years. They are not among the martyred for faith, but they are nonetheless faithful saints of Christ, who at some future time, symbolized a thousand years, they too shall reign with Christ during their lives a physical body of believers during this same symbolic period of time, and after death they too shall be with the spiritual body of believers in heaven with the Lord who have already lived and died in faith.

A/the thousand years is without logic when Premillennialists try to force it to be one thousand physical years of time to come after the second coming of Christ. It cannot be literally ONE thousand years of time since it represents both past and future time. IOW time, symbolized a thousand years, is representative of al time from the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man until the last trumpet begins to sound that this symbolic period of time shall be no longer.

 

[WPM]

If it isn't, it simply means, that though Christ has returned to the earth and that He and His saints are governing the entire planet, it is still not a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, which means it has to be the opposite then, a place wherein does not dwelleth righteousness, since you can't have both, it has to be one or the other. It does not seem reasonable to me, that after Christ returns that it would still not be a place wherein dwelleth righteous. Keeping in mind, unless Peter lied to us in 2 Peter 3, you can't have a place wherein dwelleth righteousness without also having a NHNE.

If Peter wakes up from the dead per the 2nd coming involving the first resurrection, which he indeed does, since he couldn't possibly not be among those that sleep in Christ, he still has to wait another thousand years before he finally gets to experience a place wherein dwelleth righteousness?

The reason why Premillennialists are all over the place on such a very simple fundamental issue is because their beliefs are totally unbiblical. Both sides of Premil are wrong on this issue and are trying to justify the unjustifiable. They are wanting their new earth to be akin to the Amil and Postmil new earth but they cannot fit their square peg into a round hole.

You have billions of wicked pretending to be real in the presence of Christ, parading their religious wares for a thousand years, yet, in reality, they are the greatest company of religious characters that ever lived. What a religious sham!

 

[WPM]

Your concepts aren't Biblical. Who told you that there was a carnal mind and a spiritual mind?

More avoidance.

 

[Timtofly]

Those who are resurrected from the graves and those who are of faith in Christ and still living when Christ comes again in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time for this earth shall be no longer shall all have physical, immortal & incorruptible body of flesh to live forever with Christ on the new earth. Those who died in unbelief and those who are still alive but in unbelief when the last trumpet begins to sound will all be destroyed and will stand before God to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life, then all who are in unbelief will be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

The Second Coming happens way before those beheaded souls are even beheaded. They are alive on the earth at the Second Coming. They are still alive on the earth when the 7th Trumpet sounds. They are beheaded in those 42 months called the 3rd woe, when Satan is declared the 8th king with 100% control over humanity.

They are in unbelief, but decide it is wiser to chop off their head than to receive the mark and their name removed from the Lamb's book of life.

They are not physically alive AGAIN! Because only their bodies physically died, while they as spiritual body NEVER died, but as John shows us they are living souls in heaven without physical form (beheaded). Man of faith doesn't need to be made to live AGAIN because they NEVER die even though their body returns to dust. The spirit of those having eternal life through Christ whose body returns to dust when it breathes its last returns to God in heaven a spiritual body to wait for the hour that shall come when the last trumpet begins to sound that time for this earth shall be no longer.

They are not souls in heaven. They are souls waiting somewhere until the 42 months are over and the battle of Armageddon is fought.

You keep missing the point they are still physically alive after the Second Coming, and after all those in Christ have been glorified, at the Second Coming. These souls die and have to wait until Satan is bound to receive redemption and eternal life.

Those in Christ at the Second Coming are already redeemed and will not stand in judgment like those beheaded. Those beheaded did not live and reign with Christ while physically alive. They physically reigned on earth after receiving eternal life for a thousand years. They never physically died again, ever.

You're fixated on the physical so you appear not to understand that the physical body of mankind is not the man he/she is within. Our flesh is that which gives man life, because without physical form we are spirit that has not physical form and cannot be physically seen. God created mankind with physical body for physical life on the earth. When man's body ceases to have life, the life of the spirit within of all who die in Christ NEVER dies. Because Christ has given us His promise that whosoever lives and believes in Him SHALL NEVER DIE!

So the hope of the Resurrection and eternal life is now a fixation?

Without physical form we are dead, and not in Christ at all. That is the state of all the dead currently in sheol.

Do you not understand that the entire OT redeemed were waiting for redemption in Abraham's bosom as the dead. They had to wait in death, until Jesus declared it is finished on the Cross. They did not have a spiritual body as you define them, not until after the Cross. The soul put back on a physical body from God that was permanent and incorruptible since the Cross. That physical body changed their state from death to life. Spiritual in Paul's writings is not the opposite of physical. It is the contrast between carnal Adam and spiritual Jesus as the 2nd Adam. Jesus as spiritual Adam still had a physical body because He took on human flesh, ie a physical body. He did not take on Adam's dead corruptible flesh. He was born in the image that the sons of God were created in, in Genesis 1.

Why are many here fixated with a false sense of physical verses spiritual?

Every son of God currently before God in heaven has a soul inside a physical body inside a spirit that is called a robe of white.

Those in Christ currently in Paradise have a soul and a physical body. None of the redeemed have put on the spirit. That is what happens at one time to the entire church at the Second Coming, the 5th Seal.

Lazarus is not physical, but since Christ came and defeated death, he, like all who live and die in Christ is now with Christ in heaven a spiritual body of believers there. For to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in heaven. Lazarus, in fact no man, shall have a physical, immortal and incorruptible body of flesh again before the hour coming when the last trumpet begins to sound and time (symbolized a thousand years) for this earth shall be no longer.

No such thing as a spiritual body of believers in heaven. That is a concept of humans gathered on earth of more than two people. Brick and morter buildings is where a spiritual body of believers gather to worship.

Lazarus was given that permanent incorruptible physical body that day, when he walked out of his grave. That is the hope of every believer on earth. That is the Resurrection and the Life. Lazarus ascended physically with a physical Jesus on Resurrection Sunday morning and was presented as part of the entire OT redeemed as the firstfruits of the work on a physical Cross. They all ascended with Jesus, ie caught up. Just like all physically alive will be caught up at the Second Coming.

Yes, all who died in faith before Christ came and defeated death by His cross and resurrection waited in that place of Old called Abraham's bosom. Before Christ ascended to heaven, He first descended into the place of Old of the faithful dead to set the captives free. Christ took them a spiritual body of believers to heaven to be with Him there. Paul, knowing he would still be a living soul as spiritual body after his physical death, longed to be rid of his mortal, corruptible body destined to die so he could be with his Lord in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus had a physical body at that moment He ascended. We know because He talked with Mary, and Mary thought He was another human. Lazarus had a physical body, because one walked out of Lazarus' grave, and Jesus told them to unwrap the physical bandages from a physical body. All the OT had physical bodies, because their bodies came out of all their graves when Jesus declared it is finished on the Cross.

Once again, you are confusing Adam's dead flesh in contrast to God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and think they are the same thing. Adam's dead flesh is carnal. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is a spiritual body, and is also physical. It is spiritual because it comes from God, not because it is of air and not tangible. The spirit is what is put on over the physical body. It is also not air. It has form and substance. Obviously it fits like an outer garment.

You also skipped over the very first verse of 2 Corinthians 5 that explains both bodies are physical. One is temporary the other permanent. One is from Adam and one from God. And from elsewhere, one is corruptible of corruption and the other is incorruptible of God. And Paul always writes as if the soul is putting something on over the soul. When the soul is clothed, it is no longer dead nor naked.

Satan is given a little season AFTER the thousand years have expired. The thousand years symbolizes TIME given the churches on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit and people from throughout all the nations of the world, according to grace through faith enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God. When the Kingdom of God is complete and no more shall be saved, Satan is given this little season to gather together Gog & Magog to come against Christ and His body of believers. When the masses are gathered together the saints of Christ shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and the fire of God's wrath shall be poured out upon this whole earth. The only purpose for Satan's little season is for him and all who follow after him to be finally, utterly, and completely destroyed. If you notice when Satan and his minions (Gog & Magog) gather together to fight against Christ and Christians after he is set free, there is no physical battle. Before Satan can wage a physical war to try to destroy what remains on earth of Christians, believers are caught up to Christ in the air and the fire of God destroys them all.

Not the same season as after the Second Coming which is 42 months during the 7th Trumpet sounding. The third woe is when those beheaded are beheaded. Not the little season in Revelation 20.

 

[rwb]

First question: for these martyred saints a thousand years are past?
I know, right? Sometimes we get faked out by past tense verbs. In English, John says that the martyrs "lived" (past tense) and "reigned" (past tense) for a thousand years. But John is writing Greek and the verbs are actually "aorist" tense, indicating a future action that is certain to happen.

A thousand years represents both past, present and future tense. Time was created for this earth. There are those who John writes have lived and reigned during this symbolic time, but there are also others, not among the martyred for faith who shall reign with Christ during this period of time given this earth. Those physically martyred demonstrated faith during their lives, which is why they were martyred. If they had not lived and reigned with Christ during this symbolic time they would not have been martyred.

Second question: but shall also be future for the blessed and holy saints of God
I asserted that John employed aorist tense verbs when talking about martyrs who "lived and reigned" with Christ, in order to express his confident expectation that God's promises and predictions never fail. Raising them from the dead is inevitable because God never fails to keep his promises. Their resurrection is assured because the promise is solid.

John mentions others who were also under persecution who didn't die but suffered the same oppression and trials that all followers of Jesus and lovers of God experience from rebels. Paul expresses this duality in 1 Thessalonians 4 where he speaks of those "who have died in Christ" and those "who remain." Both groups will be caught up together to meet the Lord and forever be with him.

The problem for you is showing forth proof these martyred saints were not while physically alive during this time symbolized a thousand years martyred for their faithfulness to Christ. You insist they are bodily resurrected to life again to live and reign with Christ for one thousand years, but you don't explain how, since none shall be bodily resurrected before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

I'm not certain I fully understand your objection. I don't see where the Bible says that "none shall be alive again before the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds . . ."

Once a man has physically died, none, whether believer or unbeliever shall be physically resurrected until the hour coming, and that's when the last trumpet begins to sound that time (symbolized a thousand years) shall be no longer. Every human is appointed to physically die once, but after this the judgment. This verse doesn't say after death that some shall be given another one thousand years of time. You have the physically dead martyrs being resurrected to physical life again so they can live and reign with Christ for ONE thousand years???

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Who taught you that? That is not a Biblical teaching.
We must not confuse concepts. The term "resurrection" always refers to rising from physical death. It NEVER refers to a spiritual state of being.

We understand the terms "first" and "second" from the immediate context. John is comparing those who were raised from the dead to live with Christ and serve him, with those who will be raised from the dead to be judged by Christ.

In the case of the "first resurrection" it does indeed refer to Christ physically rising from the grave. Do you deny it is through Christ's resurrection life that man must partake by being born again of the Spirit in life to live forever?

There is no confusion, except for the Premillennialists. The life we live now in these bodies destined to death is through the resurrection life of Christ. It is only by partaking of Him in life that we have assurance of everlasting life with Him forever. In life, before man physically succumbs to death, we must partake of Christ's resurrection through His Spirit within us when we are born again, then when Christ comes again, we who have partaken of Christ's resurrection life before death shall be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible made alive through our spirit that returns with Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Our understanding of the phrase "time no longer" is informed by the phrase "the mystery of God is finished." Is John saying that history itself is finished? Surely he is not saying that time itself ceases to exist is he? No. John means to say that the "mystery of God" has played out. Everything that God wished to accomplish concerning "the mystery" has been completed.

When the last trumpet begins to sound TIME symbolized a thousand years will have expired. Satan is set free. There is no more time for man throughout the nations to come into the Kingdom of God by being born again of the Spirit because the Kingdom of God shall then be complete. As I've shown the mystery that had been hidden in past ages that began to be revealed through the Gospel the disciples proclaim throughout the world, is that Gentiles of faith shall belong with Jews of faith to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Jews and Gentiles of faith together shall be the Israel of God that will be complete when the last Gentile spiritually enters into the Kingdom of God when he/she is born again of the Spirit of Christ.

I don't subscribe to the philosophical concept that the only things that are real are in our minds.

It's understandable that the Premillennialists would believe spiritual life to be a "philosophical concept"! The spiritual Kingdom of God is known and entered only by those who have been born again through the Spirit of Christ within you. For you it appears you do not believe things that are not physical. That was what the Pharisees of Old believed also, and why they did not believe Jesus is the Son of God, Who has already come to this world with His Kingdom.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your concepts aren't Biblical. Who told you that there was a carnal mind and a spiritual mind?

Wise virgins and foolish virgins, anyone?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wise virgins and foolish virgins, anyone?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Timtofly]

Mortal flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 15:50), and none shall be resurrected in physical immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Heaven is NOT a mortal, physical place. Heaven is the spiritual dwelling place of God and His angelic hosts. When we mortal humans die we do NOT enter heaven a physical body but a spiritual body of believers there. We shall not be made physical body again until the body is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Believers are not naked souls in heaven, we are as the angels of God there, spiritual body without physical form. When faithful saints rise from the dead a spiritual body in heaven, like the angels there will be no more marriage there. For we are the bride/wife of Christ, the holy city, new Jerusalem that will come down from heaven with Christ.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25 (KJV) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Then the bride and groom symbolism contradicts the ban on procreation point.

The point is that no one has been procreating in heaven for the last 2 millennia.

Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot inherit the kingdom. Are you in the kingdom in your current birth body from Adam? You contradict your own point if yes.

You are not a human in God's image without a physical body. That is the only Scriptural fact of truth.

Of course heaven is not a dead place. Having a physical body means one is eternally alive. Not having a physical body means one is eternally dead.

So you expect to be an angel instead of in Christ and in the image of God? You can be an angel then, but all those in Christ have God's permanent incorruptible physical body and are physically enjoying Paradise alive instead of naked and dead.

A mortal body is being in a state of death.

Being in the image of God and redeemed is a soul having on a physical body.

Adam and Eve had physical bodies before sin and death. They were not spiritual entities as you describe we become.

They lost their permanent incorruptible physical body, and were given temporal corruptible mortal bodies. They passed those bodies of death on to all their offspring. That is what cannot enter heaven.

But putting on the original incorruptible and permanent physical body restores us back into the image of God.

Adam's image was banned from Paradise. But Paradise is still the physical place with the physical tree of life. The thief that was redeemed by Christ physically entered Paradise that day, not thousands of years later. Jesus entered Paradise a few days later on Sunday morning with all those souls who had been in Abraham's bosom including Lazarus. Their redemption was permanent once they ascended into Paradise.

Those resurrected out of Adam's dead flesh are not allowed to live forever on earth with mortals. They never have been since the Flood.

You must think all the sons of God were destroyed in the Flood. But they are still alive in the book of Job. Still in council over what goes on on the earth, but they don't live on the earth. Besides it was not those created on the 6th day who became wicked. It was their offspring after many generations and the offspring between them and Adam's mortal flesh. Both the sons of God and Adam's offspring all had physical bodies to produce physical offspring. No such thing as spiritual babies. One does not become physically born again. The second birth is a spiritual concept into God's family. But having a physical body never changed.

The spiritual part of our being does not change the physical part of our being. They are separate from the soul, just like God is a separate person from Jesus and from the Holy Spirit. In the image of God we are not 3 seperate persons. But we are three seperate and distinct parts. We are a soul currently in a body of death. After this physical body ceases, we have a permanent incorruptible physical body from God. At the Second Coming we put on the spirit. We do not have the spirit to put on now. That is part of our being spiritual dead.


Spiritually dead is not having a spirit. Like physically dead is not having a body.

It is not physical verses spiritual. It is being in a state of death verses a state of life.

 

[Timtofly]

The passage tells us "they LIVED and REIGNED (past tense, before they were martyred) with Christ a thousand years", it does NOT say the lived and reigned AGAIN! Which is what the discussion is centered on. It doesn't need to say "had" because they lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years before they physically died. It is while they were still physically alive that they lived and reigned BEFORE they were martyred for their faith. That means they were still living souls after physical death a spiritual body of believers without mortal, corruptible body of flesh. For those who are living spiritual body in heaven after death the symbolic thousand years are past.

Then John writes that others called blessed and holy "shall reign" with Christ for a thousand years. They are not among the martyred for faith, but they are nonetheless faithful saints of Christ, who at some future time, symbolized a thousand years, they too shall reign with Christ during their lives a physical body of believers during this same symbolic period of time, and after death they too shall be with the spiritual body of believers in heaven with the Lord who have already lived and died in faith.

A/the thousand years is without logic when Premillennialists try to force it to be one thousand physical years of time to come after the second coming of Christ. It cannot be literally ONE thousand years of time since it represents both past and future time. IOW time, symbolized a thousand years, is representative of al time from the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man until the last trumpet begins to sound that this symbolic period of time shall be no longer.

All this just says is your opinion that those beheaded never took part in the first resurrection. Because even those not martyred (your interpretation) take part in the first resurrection, because they all had physically left their dead corruptible flesh. They could only live and reign after physical death.

Revelation 20 is not John telling us about his current time until the Second Coming.

There is nothing symbolic about this 1,000 years. It is still in the future because the future is when John sees this 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

 

[rwb]

All this just says is your opinion that those beheaded never took part in the first resurrection.

They were beheaded because they are part of the "first resurrection", which is the resurrection of Christ! They were faithful to Christ unto death because they were spiritually alive through His Spirit within having part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the first resurrection to never die again. All who partake of Christ's resurrection life before they die, and before the last trumpet begins to sound have partaken of the "first resurrection" and they shall never die again, even though their body will succumb to death. They shall still be living souls in heaven a spiritual body of believers there and like Christ, shall NEVER die again.

 

[O'Darby]

I am that rare bird, an I-don't-care-ennialist. Thomas Jefferson famously called Revelation "the ravings of a madman." I don't go that far, but I believe way too many Christians spend way too much time obsessing over Revelation. I might paraphrase Jefferson as "too much emphasis on Revelation can turn YOU into a madman."

Revelation is a well-established genre (apocalyptic) written for a first century audience. Sure, you can make it apply to all times, including today, in a broad way. The fundamental message is Jesus' own: live like a wise virgin, as though the end were always imminent. All the rest is just window-dressing.

 

[Timtofly]

The reason why Premillennialists are all over the place on such a very simple fundamental issue is because their beliefs are totally unbiblical. Both sides of Premil are wrong on this issue and are trying to justify the unjustifiable. They are wanting their new earth to be akin to the Amil and Postmil new earth but they cannot fit their square peg into a round hole.

You have billions of wicked pretending to be real in the presence of Christ, parading their religious wares for a thousand years, yet, in reality, they are the greatest company of religious characters that ever lived. What a religious sham!

More avoidance of God's Word.

 

[CadyandZoe]

A thousand years represents both past, present and future tense.

What do you mean? Yesterday is in the past, today is now, and tomorrow is in the future. The past and the future are always relative to now.

Time was created for this earth.

Time exists everywhere.

There are those who John writes have lived and reigned during this symbolic time, but there are also others, not among the martyred for faith who shall reign with Christ during this period of time given this earth.

I don't understand "symbolic" time. I only understand real-time. I have a job. I need to start work at 9:00 a.m. and quit at 5:00 p.m. That is real-time. I need 8 hours of sleep. That is actual time spent sleeping -- not some kind of imaginary time interval.

Those physically martyred demonstrated faith during their lives, which is why they were martyred. If they had not lived and reigned with Christ during this symbolic time they would not have been martyred.

No one is reigning with Christ today or yesterday. Where do People get such weird ideas?

The problem for you is showing forth proof these martyred saints were not while physically alive during this time symbolized a thousand years martyred for their faithfulness to Christ.

That isn't a problem for my view because I don't agree that anyone is reigning right now. No one reigns until thrones are set up. And the thrones aren't set up until Satan is bound and Satan isn't bound yet.

You insist they are bodily resurrected to life again to live and reign with Christ for one thousand years, but you don't explain how, since none shall be bodily resurrected before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

Obviously, I don't share your interpretation of Revelation 10. I need help understanding your interpretation.

There is no confusion, except for the Premillennialists.

I disagree. Premillennialists are perfectly understandable. Everyone else is making stuff up using words outside of their dictionary definition. Amillennialism is based on some form of philosophical idealism, where reality is a mental construct. Jerusalem isn't an actual place; it's a mental construct. Zion isn't an actual place; it's a mental construct. Reigning and Ruling have nothing to do with telling actual people what to do. It's just a mental construct. A thousand years isn't the duration of an actual amount of time; it is a mental construct. Resurrection isn't being raised from the dead; it's a mental construct.

Premillennialism doesn't idealize or spiritualize Biblical concepts.

The life we live now in these bodies destined to death is through the resurrection life of Christ.

"Resurrection life" is another idealized concept that doesn't actually exist. It's meaningless.

The word "resurrection" refers to being raised from the dead. According to the Bible, Jesus was resurrected from the dead after the third day. God raised him from the dead. He died and then he was alive again. But that wasn't the first resurrection as you suppose. Lazarus and others were raised from the dead before Jesus was.

The critical issue is whether or not someone has been "changed" or "transformed." Who was the first to be granted an "indestructible life?" According to Paul, Jesus was the first to be granted an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:16). Jesus was the first to experience change after resurrection. "We shall not all sleep," says the Apostle, "but we shall all be changed."

"Resurrection" is being raised from the dead but not all those who have been raised from the dead will have been prepared for the next age. The Bible speaks about "eternal life," which indicates both eternality and happiness. We refer to the state of eternal life as "Ionic Life", which is a state of human flourishing, fulfillment, happiness, peace, shalom, truth, righteousness, goodness and glorification that will exist during the final age, which is forever.

Until then, we walk by the guidance of the Holy Spirit in hope.

When the last trumpet begins to sound TIME symbolized a thousand years will have expired.

Why do we use symbolism? Symbolic language helps the author to desribe abstract concepts in a manner which is easily apprehended by the reader. For instance, Revelation pictures Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth. Such fantastical language alerts the reader to the symbolic meaning. The sword is a weapon of warfare, and the mouth is vehicle used to speak. A sword in the mouth symbolizes a person who commands troops and armies.

One may ask, "Why would John use time to symbolize time?" It seems illogical to use one abstract idea (time) to represent the same abstraction (time). On the other hand, Jesus used expressions such as "wars and rumors of wars" to symbolize a long period of time. This was because many historians divide eras or ages into distinct phases, each marked by a major conflict or war." A series of real, physical battles and wars represents a very long time.

The number 1,000 might be symbolic of a very long time. The number 1,000 years might be symbolic of eternity since it spans several generations. The number 1,000 might be symbolic for something close to that, say 999 years, or 1055 years. We tend to round off large numbers.

But what would be the point of giving a symbolic number for time in Revelation 20? What changes after the time has elapsed? If 1000 years represents the time that we walk in "resurrection life," then do we stop walking in Resurrection life after that? Why wouldn't we continue to walk in Resurrection life for eternity?

You see, whatever spiritual meaning John may have symbolized with the "one thousand years" the essential feature of that time period is temporality. Whatever it represents is NOT an eternal verity. As the apostle said, "Love, hope, and faith" are eternal, they all remain. But whatever is associated with a temporal age, whether it is 1,000 years long or 10,000 years long, it isn't eternal. The age finally comes to an end. And I would hate to think that so-called resurrection life has an end.

Right?

It's understandable that the Premillennialists would believe spiritual life to be a "philosophical concept"!

I wish I could help others see the philosophical underpinnings of their beliefs so that they might examine them to see if they actually believe them.

Sometimes I wonder if wonder if Christians mean what they say or if they are swimming in a philosophy they picked up from the culture. When Christians compare the spiritual with the physical do they actually believe in some form of property dualism and believe that the spirit can exist apart from the body?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The passage tells us "they LIVED and REIGNED (past tense, before they were martyred) with Christ a thousand years", it does NOT say the lived and reigned AGAIN! Which is what the discussion is centered on. It doesn't need to say "had" because they lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years before they physically died. It is while they were still physically alive that they lived and reigned BEFORE they were martyred for their faith. That means they were still living souls after physical death a spiritual body of believers without mortal, corruptible body of flesh. For those who are living spiritual body in heaven after death the symbolic thousand years are past.

Then John writes that others called blessed and holy "shall reign" with Christ for a thousand years. They are not among the martyred for faith, but they are nonetheless faithful saints of Christ, who at some future time, symbolized a thousand years, they too shall reign with Christ during their lives a physical body of believers during this same symbolic period of time, and after death they too shall be with the spiritual body of believers in heaven with the Lord who have already lived and died in faith.

A/the thousand years is without logic when Premillennialists try to force it to be one thousand physical years of time to come after the second coming of Christ. It cannot be literally ONE thousand years of time since it represents both past and future time. IOW time, symbolized a thousand years, is representative of al time from the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man until the last trumpet begins to sound that this symbolic period of time shall be no longer.

Suppose one thousand years is symbolic.

Dialog

Sam: So you say that Satan is bound for a thousand years?

Doug: No. We don't know how long Satan will be bound. The thousand years just represents a really, really long time.

Sam: So if you don't know how long it will be, why mention time at all? Why give a number? He is released when he is released.

Doug: No, but don't you see, it lasts a really, really long time. We don't know how long, but it's a long time.

Sam: Okay, it's a really long time. But why speculate on a time? Are you being optimistic? Is your estimate over-exaggerated or understated?

Doug: Didn't I say? Oh, I must have forgotten.

Sam: What do you expect us to do with your "estimate"? What does it matter how long it is?

Doug: Hmm. I don't know. The point is, its a really long time.

Sam: You say Satan will be released. Why let him go? What is THAT all about?

Doug: Satan's imprisonment is temporary.

Sam: Okay, that's my point. Why is it temporary? Is everything during the thousand years temporary?

Doug: Well . . .

Sam: It says here that some people will live and reign with Christ during that period. Is that also a temporary condition?

Doug: No.

Sam: Well, if the thousand years represent a temporary condition with respect to Satan's binding, how can you say that it doesn't represent other temporary conditions, such as living and reigning with Christ? Again, why specify a fixed amount of time?

 

[rwb]

What do you mean? Yesterday is in the past, today is now, and tomorrow is in the future. The past and the future are always relative to now

That's how TIME works. A thousand years symbolizes time that began with the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man, and will end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that this specific TIME shall be no longer.

Time exists everywhere.

How can time exist for immortal & incorruptible living souls? Time is for functioning of the earth. There is no passage of time where death and corruption cease to exist.

I don't understand "symbolic" time. I only understand real-time. I have a job. I need to start work at 9:00 a.m. and quit at 5:00 p.m. That is real-time. I need 8 hours of sleep. That is actual time spent sleeping -- not some kind of imaginary time interval.

That's because your sight is fixated only on that which is physical. Which is why you cannot understand how the Kingdom of God is not now of this earth, cannot be physically seen, and can only be known and enter when man is born again of the Spirit of Christ within them. How can you understand and know that which is not physical if you have only physical knowledge and sight? Why can you not understand the Kingdom of God is not and shall not be physically upon this earth? You lack the spiritual discernment needed for you to have spiritual understanding of that which is of God and is not physical but spiritual. Look how you think and reason without taking into account the spiritual nature of God and His Kingdom. It is through the Spirit of Christ that we might know and enter into the Kingdom of God. It is not through our physical body that is ordained to die.

That isn't a problem for my view because I don't agree that anyone is reigning right now. No one reigns until thrones are set up. And the thrones aren't set up until Satan is bound and Satan isn't bound yet.

You continue to prove what I've been saying. You are fixated on the physical so unless you see physical thrones you do not believe the Kingdom we live and reign with Christ in is not a physical temporary Kingdom on this earth for ONE thousand years, but is an everlasting spiritual Kingdom that shall never pass away. How can you say Satan is now, since the first advent of Christ, NOT deceiving all the nations of the world? He is bound so he CANNOT deceive, so how can he NOT NOW be bound since many from all the nations of the earth are no longer deceived by him and are in fact entering into the spiritual Kingdom of God in droves??? Since he cannot, since the cross and resurrection no longer deceive all who believe in Christ, how can he now be free as you believe he is??? If you think that Satan will be bound in the future when there will be peace and harmony on this earth for ONE thousand years, you'll have a very difficult proving what you ASSUME! And in the process of trying to prove the unprovable you will force contradiction upon contradiction into the Word of God!!

Obviously, I don't share your interpretation of Revelation 10. I need help understanding your interpretation.

I believe I've made clear my understanding of Rev 10, but you must continue to refuse to believe what is clearly written, because if you do you will have to admit the doctrine of Premillennialism is an unbiblical doctrine of deception.

Premillennialism doesn't idealize or spiritualize Biblical concepts.

Premillennialism won't even accept the truth that the Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in is NOT now of this world because His Kingdom is spiritual and cannot be known or entered unless one is born again of the Spirit within them. Premillennialism is so fixated on the physical that they cannot spiritually discern. Your doctrine is no different than that of the unbelieving Pharisees of Old.

"Resurrection life" is another idealized concept that doesn't actually exist. It's meaningless.

Yes, it would be meaningless to one who has no spiritual discernment! Apart from the Spirit within, a man cannot know the things of God. For it is His Spirit within that gives us spiritual understanding of spiritual things. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know, because they are spiritually discerned."

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rwb]

Suppose one thousand years is symbolic.

Dialog

Sam: So you say that Satan is bound for a thousand years?

Doug: No. We don't know how long Satan will be bound. The thousand years just represents a really, really long time.

Sam: So if you don't know how long it will be, why mention time at all? Why give a number? He is released when he is released.

Doug: No, but don't you see, it lasts a really, really long time. We don't know how long, but it's a long time.

Sam: Okay, it's a really long time. But why speculate on a time? Are you being optimistic? Is your estimate over-exaggerated or understated?

Doug: Didn't I say? Oh, I must have forgotten.

Sam: What do you expect us to do with your "estimate"? What does it matter how long it is?

Doug: Hmm. I don't know. The point is, its a really long time.

Sam: You say Satan will be released. Why let him go? What is THAT all about?

Doug: Satan's imprisonment is temporary.

Sam: Okay, that's my point. Why is it temporary? Is everything during the thousand years temporary?

Doug: Well . . .

Sam: It says here that some people will live and reign with Christ during that period. Is that also a temporary condition?

Doug: No.

Sam: Well, if the thousand years represent a temporary condition with respect to Satan's binding, how can you say that it doesn't represent other temporary conditions, such as living and reigning with Christ? Again, why specify a fixed amount of time?

Satan is bound in TIME that is symbolized a/the thousand years. We know this symbolic time began with the first advent of Christ because that is when the nations (Gentiles) throughout the earth began to hear the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit and began pouring into the Kingdom of God. It doesn't matter how long this symbolic time is, because we know from the Word of God that there is an end date for this symbolic time. When this time is complete, so too shall the Kingdom of God be complete as the last Gentile to be saved will have come into the Kingdom of God. Then Satan shall be set free once again. When he is set free it is for a little season to gather together the deceived people on the earth, who are likened to Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian groups) to try one last time to prevent the Kingdom of God from being complete. Then the people, both the dead in Christ and those still physically alive in Christ shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as the fire of God's wrath is poured out upon all the earth to utterly burn up the earth and everything still alive upon it. Then the next age when all things shall be made new, where there will be no more death, sickness or sin. No more Satan and his minions, no one in unbelief without immortal & incorruptible body of flesh shall enter there.

 

[Davidpt]

Suppose one thousand years is symbolic.

Dialog

Sam: So you say that Satan is bound for a thousand years?

Doug: No. We don't know how long Satan will be bound. The thousand years just represents a really, really long time.

Sam: So if you don't know how long it will be, why mention time at all? Why give a number? He is released when he is released.

Doug: No, but don't you see, it lasts a really, really long time. We don't know how long, but it's a long time.

Sam: Okay, it's a really long time. But why speculate on a time? Are you being optimistic? Is your estimate over-exaggerated or understated?

Doug: Didn't I say? Oh, I must have forgotten.

Sam: What do you expect us to do with your "estimate"? What does it matter how long it is?

Doug: Hmm. I don't know. The point is, its a really long time.

Sam: You say Satan will be released. Why let him go? What is THAT all about?

Doug: Satan's imprisonment is temporary.

Sam: Okay, that's my point. Why is it temporary? Is everything during the thousand years temporary?

Doug: Well . . .

Sam: It says here that some people will live and reign with Christ during that period. Is that also a temporary condition?

Doug: No.

Sam: Well, if the thousand years represent a temporary condition with respect to Satan's binding, how can you say that it doesn't represent other temporary conditions, such as living and reigning with Christ? Again, why specify a fixed amount of time?

It seems to me that since a thousand years involves a cardinal number followed by years, that Amils then need to provide at least one example anywhere in the Bible where a cardinal number is followed by years, that the amount of years specified is not literally meaning the amount of years specified, it is symbolizing something else instead, in order to support their theory pertaining to a thousand years.

Some random examples below. Do any of these support their theory pertaining to the thousand years, that the number of years specified in these examples below, that in some of these verses the amount of years specified are not literally meaning the amount of years specified?

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth

Genesis 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 2:14 And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them.


Judges 8:28 Thus was Midian subdued before the children of Israel, so that they lifted up their heads no more. And the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon.


1 Samuel 7:2 And it came to pass, while the ark abode in Kirjathjearim, that the time was long; for it was twenty years: and all the house of Israel lamented after the LORD

1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat was thirty and five years old when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Azubah the daughter of Shilhi.


2 Chronicles 21:5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.


Jeremiah 34:14 At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother an Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee; and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee: but your fathers hearkened not unto me, neither inclined their ear.


Daniel 5:31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.


Matthew 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:


John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?


Acts 7:23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.


Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:


Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.


These are just random ones I picked out. Maybe I just got unlucky here and only found ones that don't support what Amils allege about a thousand years, that the amount of years specified isn't literally meaning the amount of years specified. Maybe they should have a go at then since there are plenty more examples of verses involving a cardinal number followed by years, and that maybe they can find at least one example that supports their theory, that in the Bible, when a cardinal number is followed by years, that in some cases the amount specified isn't literally meaning the amount specified.

But instead of them doing that, what do they typically do? They provide examples involving a thousand, and then say, see, a thousand is not literally meaning a thousand here. Except none of us are claiming otherwise to begin with, in regards to these examples they provide.

What they are not doing per these examples is proving that when a cardinal number is followed by years in the Bible, that there are some instances that the amount specified is not literally meaning the amount specified since none of these examples pertaining to a thousand they are submitting as proof that a thousand isn't literally meaning a thousand every time are even involving years, thus a cardinal number followed by years. IOW, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

What numbers are undeniably involved here? Are they not these? 1000, 200, and 60. If we were to add these numbers up what do they total? 1000 + 200 + 60 equals what? Does it not equal 1260?

Suppose a teacher teaching math to his or her students submitted the following question on a quiz---200 + 60 plus what number equals 1260? And that every student in the class got it correct except one student because he had no clue how to answer it, therefore, he didn't.

The teacher then asks him why he didn't know the answer. And then he admits, but I think I did know the answer, that it is 1000, but got confused since my daddy is an Amil and told me a thousand in Revelation 20 is not literally meaning 1000, it is meaning more than 1000, maybe even 2000. But when you add 200 + 60 + 2000 that does not equal 1260 it equals more than 1260, it equals 2260.

The teacher then says, I know you respect your daddy and all, but if the idea is to pass math class rather than fail it, you better quit listening to your daddy then, since math never lies and can be trusted to be factual. Apparently, the same can't be said about your daddy if he insists that 1000 can mean more than 1000 and then expect that to mathematically make sense in regards to 200 + 60 + what number equals 1260?