Bible Study - 'The Second Coming of Christ'

[MatthewG]

Hello to you, this will be a self study on the subject of what is called 'The Second Coming of Christ', of course this in their day in age reading the letters, and the Old Testament would have originally seen as the Day of the Lord, and also the Last or Great Day. Did you know that?

It is highly important to take ones time here about these scriptures that are going to be shared, the people in that day in age, where expecting a literal and applicable day of the Lord to come in which they were waiting on the Lord Jesus Christ to come and return in their day in age, and also cast upon the nation of Israel the wrath of God for having killed his son, and demolishing and destroying Jerusalem in 70AD.

Now if you decide to comment on this thread that is fine, however this is strictly for the study of the subject 'The Second Coming of Christ.'

So let's start with the very last book of the Old Testament, Malachi in which after his written letter which deals with Israel Beloved of God, Polluted offerings, Corrupt priests, treachery of infidelity, the coming messenger, do not rob God, and THE GREAT DAY OF GOD. There was 400 years of silence before the coming messenger was born - that would be the Word of God made flesh the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the book of Malachi Chapter 4 states this:

• Mal 4:1 For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
  [*]
  
  [*]Mal 4:2 And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness—and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
  [*]
  
  [*]Mal 4:3 And ye have trodden down the wicked, For they are ashes under the soles of your feet, In the day that I am appointing, Said Jehovah of Hosts.
  [*]
  
  [*]Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, That I did command him in Horeb, For all Israel—statutes and judgments.
  [*]
  
  [*]Mal 4:5 Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.
  [*]
  
  [*]Mal 4:6 And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land!

Think about these passages for a moment it was the last letter written for 400 years prior to the Lord Yeshua was born from the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, the virgin who bore the child.

Found in Malachi 4:5 - The Jewish audience, and the priest would teach these lessons in the synagogues in that day in age, which was written around 516 BC.

• Mal 4:5 Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.

When did Elijah the prophet come? Wasn't it when John the Baptist had come?​

Let's look at what Jesus had said in Matthew,

Jesus stated in Chapter 11 of Matthew.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say to you, there hath not risen, among those born of women, a greater than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the reign of the heavens is greater than he.

Mat 11:12 'And, from the days of John the Baptist till now, the reign of the heavens doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force,

Mat 11:13 for all the prophets and the law till John did prophesy,

Mat 11:14 and if ye are willing to receive it , he is Elijah who was about to come;

Mat 11:15 he who is having ears to hear—let him hear.

Jesus states that, none has been greater than John the Baptist, he also stated from the days of John the Baptist till now (when Jesus is speaking here in Matthew 11), the reign of heaven doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force.

What does Jesus mean about the reign or heaven doth suffer violence and violent men do take it by force? Consider how Jesus had come down from above being the word of God - and the Holy Spirit (the Kingdom of heaven) was with-in the Lord. This would mean that Jesus is suffering violence from others, and violent men do take it by force - which means because of Jesus having come everything is now in an uproar? Why?

Because of Jesus Christ the Messiah having come mentioned in Malachi chapter 3, and now also Elijah had come too, as you can see in Matthew 11:12-14.

What was to come after this? Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful. (Malachi 4:5)

Next Post here #3

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello to you, this will be a self study on the subject of what is called 'The Second Coming of Christ', of course this in their day in age reading the letters, and the Old Testament would have originally seen as the Day of the Lord, and also the Last or Great Day. Did you know that?

It is highly important to take ones time here about these scriptures that are going to be shared, the people in that day in age, where expecting a literal and applicable day of the Lord to come in which they were waiting on the Lord Jesus Christ to come and return in their day in age, and also cast upon the nation of Israel the wrath of God for having killed his son, and demolishing and destroying Jerusalem in 70AD.

Now if you decide to comment on this thread that is fine, however this is strictly for the study of the subject 'The Second Coming of Christ.'

So let's start with the very last book of the Old Testament, Malachi in which after his written letter which deals with Israel Beloved of God, Polluted offerings, Corrupt priests, treachery of infidelity, the coming messenger, do not rob God, and THE GREAT DAY OF GOD. There was 400 years of silence before the coming messenger was born - that would be the Word of God made flesh the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the book of Malachi Chapter 4 states this:


Think about these passages for a moment it was the last letter written for 400 years prior to the Lord Yeshua was born from the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, the virgin who bore the child.

Found in Malachi 4:5 - The Jewish audience, and the priest would teach these lessons in the synagogues in that day in age, which was written around 516 BC.

• Mal 4:5 Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.

When did Elijah the prophet come? Wasn't it when John the Baptist had come?​

Let's look at what Jesus had said in Matthew,

Jesus stated in Chapter 11 of Matthew.


Jesus states that, none has been greater than John the Baptist, he also stated from the days of John the Baptist till now (when Jesus is speaking here in Matthew 11), the reign of heaven doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force.

What does Jesus mean about the reign or heaven doth suffer violence and violent men do take it by force? Consider how Jesus had come down from above being the word of God - and the Holy Spirit (the Kingdom of heaven) was with-in the Lord. This would mean that Jesus is suffering violence from others, and violent men do take it by force - which means because of Jesus having come everything is now in an uproar? Why?

Because of Jesus Christ the Messiah having come mentioned in Malachi chapter 3, and now also Elijah had come too, as you can see in Matthew 11:12-14.

What was to come after this? Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful. (Malachi 4:5)

May he come soon Matt!

 

[MatthewG]

Let's look at few other scriptures dealing with the DAY OF THE LORD.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter, which has been dated around 53-54 AD.

He wrote and said this:

• 1Co 5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—ye being gathered together, also my spirit—with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
• 1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This text has to deal with the day of the Lord, as you can see in verse 5 here.

• What is interesting to note first here is that the Apostle Paul is encouraging them, first, to deliver up the one who had - sex with his mother-in-law - and Paul admonishes them to not rejoice in such acts, and he tells them to deliver up such a one to the Adversary - some scripture states Satan - for the destruction of the flesh.

I have no idea what that means personally, but is something that Paul did say to these living, breathing people, who were having issues in their church which Paul had decided to write to them to help them and admonish them in correction, why?

So that person who was delivered to the Adversary (S.T Satan) for the destruction of the flesh, for what reason? That the spirit may be saved in the day - of the Lord Jesus.

• Paul ends up writing later for the Corinthians to have forgiveness to this individual in his Second Letter which is why it is important to consider all things of the scriptures my friends.

Now look here at the first introduction here in 1 Corinthians in what Paul writes to them also saying this,

1Co 1:1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother,

1Co 1:2 to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place—both theirs and ours:

1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

1Co 1:4 I give thanks to my God always concerning you for the grace of God that was given to you in Christ Jesus,

1Co 1:5 that in every thing ye were enriched in him, in all discourse and all knowledge,

1Co 1:6 according as the testimony of the Christ was confirmed in you,

1Co 1:7 so that ye are not behind in any gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 1:8 who also shall confirm you unto the end—unblamable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ;

The admonishment and purpose of writing to them, was for them to be able to continue to stand in waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

who also shall confirm you unto the end - - unblameable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ when he would return, being the bride of Christ, the very first fruits that believed in Him.​

Of course do you remember that the Time of unknown was pronounced by the Lord ?

Jesus had stated to his disciples - who had asked him previously when will be the signs of your coming and he addresses all the signs, but he tells him, the time and hour is unknown.

• Mat 24:36 'And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known—not even the messengers of the heavens—except my Father only;

• Now when Jesus states that - concerning that day and the hour no one hath known, does that mean that they would not see what Jesus had spoken about previously such as, about wars, persecutions, armies surrounding Jerusalem, ?
• 
  
• Could they not be able to see, though unsure if that would be the exact day or the exact hour which was going to come, but only the Father knew?

That is something you have to really think about, and go and look at all the scriptures dealing with what Jesus had stated to his apostles founded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Next post here: #5

 

[ChristisGod]

Peddling the false doctrine of preterism.

 

[MatthewG]

So because of what Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, and we understand now that the great and fearful day of Yahweh was going to come when the prophet of Elijah had arrived, and that when Jesus had come, a great uproar was started at that time.

What were they going to be watching for, to be ready for?

Mat 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

• - Jesus and his disciples had come out of the temple, and his disciples came to show him the buildings of the temple which Jesus had just went hardcore on the Pharisees in scribes in the previous chapter.

Mat 24:2 and Jesus said to them, 'Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'

• - Jesus told his disciples, 'Do you not see all these? Verily I say to you, there may not be left here a stone upon a stone, and that shall not be thrown down.' - He is talking about the temple there in Jerusalem, and the destruction of it, they had just literally left it after Jesus had went hard on the Pharisees and scribes.

Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

• - Now Jesus and his disciples are on the Mount of the Olives which is opposite of the temple in Jerusalem.
• 
  
• - The Disciples came near to Him, and Jesus was by himself. They asked Him 'Tell us, when shall these things be? What is the sign of thy presence, of the full end of the age?
• 
  
• - The King James Version - says World here, but the actual word that is suppose to be used here is AGE
• 
  
• - so the disciples are coming to seek what the signs are going to be for when the presence of the Lord would be, and how would this destruction of the temple come about?

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Take heed that no one may lead you astray,

• - Jesus told his disciples - Take heed that no one may lead your astray. Jesus is now going to answer their question
• 
  
• - 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Mat 24:5 for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray,

- Jesus says that many shall come in my name, saying I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray,

From Robertson's Word pictures
In my name (epi tōi onomati mou). They will arrogate to themselves false claims of Messiahship in (on the basis of) the name of Christ himself. Josephus (Wars VI, 54) gives there false Christs as one of the reasons for the explosion against Rome that led to the city’s destruction. Each new hero was welcomed by the masses including Barcochba. “I am the Messiah,” each would say. Forty odd years ago two men in Illinois claimed to be Messiah, each with followers (Schlatter, Schweinfurth). In more recent years Mrs. Annie Besant has introduced a theosophical Messiah and Mrs. Eddy made claims about herself on a par with those of Jesus.

• - I believe this mainly had to deal with those in that day in their age, and not to be fooled by anyone claiming that they are the messiah, because - truly - Jesus would return just as he had ascended up in the clouds which was witnessed by 500 people, in which they were encouraged to be waiting for his return which would happen in 40 years in that generation that Jesus had spoke to in that day in age about his coming. Can people do the same thing today? Sure they can but however you would know better than to believe that, Friend!

Mat 24:6 and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all these to come to pass, but the end is not yet.

• - Jesus continues on answering His disciples question, by saying that ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all these to come to pass, but the end (of that age) is not yet. This is a message to encourage them while they are hearing these things, and they see these things, the end of that age is not quite yet and to keep going in faith and trusting in Him, and his promises which He was going to come back to save them from the wrath of God that would be poured out of the nation of Israel for killing his Son.

Mat 24:7 'For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;

• - Jesus told them For nation shall rise against nation -
• 
  

• What is needed to be noted here is the word (nation) used:
  [*]ethnos
  [*]
  
  [*]162x: a multitude, company, Act 17:26; 1Pe 2:9; Rev 21:24; a nation, people, Mat 20:25; Mat 21:43; pl. ἔθνη, from the Hebrew, nations or people as distinguished from the Jews, the heathen, Gentiles, Mat 4:15; Mat 10:5; Luk 2:32.
  [*]

• - So it would be the ethos shall rise again ethos - the surrounding areas of the land then and there, and the kingdom (in that same areas) against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;

You can go and look at historical accounts such as Jospehus to consider if these things really happened or not, but Jesus is tell his disciples right then and there that they would see these things happening.

Continued post here: #6

 

[MatthewG]

Let's continue on the verse by verse in Matthew 24:

Mat 24:8 and all these are the beginning of sorrows;

• - So because of the ethnos (TRIBES) of the surrounding countries, and the kingdoms, and the wars and the pestilence, and the famine, and the earthquakes, Jesus tells his disciples, that this is the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;

• - Then Jesus starts to be very specific to the disciples here, about how - they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and you shall be hated by all the - ethnos - tribes because of the name of the Lord Yeshua.
• - Think for yourself here and consider all of this being historical and real, not just some old story.

Mat 24:10 and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

• - Remember when Jesus spoke and said:
  • Mat 18:6 and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.
• - Yeshua is reminding them of this; because of the persecution and hatred towards the disciples - the same thing would happen to the church, the very first church bride (The first fruits of believers Christ - and more would follow after) they would suffer severely, and because of this, and people claiming to be the messiah, and all the elemental effects that would start to be happening.
• - Yeshua states: and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
• The beginning of sorrows is now there, intact, and because of it many would be made to stumble, and they shall deliver up one another (in persecution), and they shall hate one another (for differences and divisions caused)

Mat 24:11 'And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray;

• Jesus says then: Many false prophets shall arise, and lead many astray.
• What is a false prophet?

pseudoprophētēs

psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace

From G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

• Someone that would be a religious imposter - and there was a lot of these things talked about in the letters and how these people had become.
• There was a group of people called the Nicolatians, mentioned in Revelation 2:6;14-15. That would lead people astray, there was also Antinomianism - which would be a group that says "Lets Sin so Gods Grace can abound!" - that was the mindset of that sect.
• From Robertsons Word Pictures:

• That thou hatest (hoti miseis). Accusative object clause in apposition with touto (this). Trench tells of the words used in ancient Greek for hatred of evil (misoponēria) and misoponēros (hater of evil), neither of which occurs in the N.T., but which accurately describe the angel of the church in Ephesus.
  
  Of the Nicolaitans (tōn Nikolaitōn). Mentioned again in Rev 2:15 and really meant in Rev 2:2. Irenaeus and Hippolytus take this sect to be followers of Nicolaus of Antioch, one of the seven deacons (Act 6:5), a Jewish proselyte, who is said to have apostatized. There was such a sect in the second century (Tertullian), but whether descended from Nicolaus of Antioch is not certain, though possible (Lightfoot). It is even possible that the Balaamites of Rev 2:14 were a variety of this same sect (Rev 2:15).
  
  Which I also hate (ha kagō misō). Christ himself hates the teachings and deeds of the Nicolaitans (ha, not hous, deeds, not people), but the church in Pergamum tolerated them.

Mat 24:12 and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;

• - Jesus continued to say to his disciples, because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold.
• - Those who went after the things of the flesh, and abused the grace of God, and rejected the true and living messiah, and those who stumbled, those who lost their true love being Christ, the love of many shall become cold, and this is was a sign for them to look at, and be watchful for.

Mat 24:13 but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;

• - Jesus says to his disciples but he who did ensure to the end - he shall be saved: now a question here comes to mind, saved from what? The coming wrath upon the nation of Israel that would wrap up the age that would bring in the new heavens and earth (land) where God writes on the hearts and minds of individuals by his spirit - and the old material ways of doing things would be done away with (such as playing church.)

Mat 24:14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.

• - Jesus said because of this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed to all the world.

Note: world
oikoumenē

oy-kou-men'-ay

Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.

• - Jesus said for a testimony to all the nations (again Ethnos - Tribes) and then shall the end arrive.
• What end and how shall it arrive? Once all the surrounding tribes had heard of the good news of the life, death, burial, resurrection, and the coming return of the Lord Jesus, in which they were encouraged to wait and be watching and to be ready for.

Mat 24:15 'Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe)

• - Jesus explains to his disciples - whenever, therefore after all the things perviously stated, - you may see the abomination of the desolation -
• 
  

  [*]Robertsons Word pictures
  [*]Matthew 24:15
  The abomination of desolation (to bdelugma tēs eremōseōs). An allusion to Dan 9:27; Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11. Antiochus Epiphanes erected an altar to Zeus on the altar of Jehovah (1 Maccabees 1:54, 59; 6:7; 2 Maccabees 6:1-5). The desolation in the mind of Jesus is apparently the Roman army (Luk 21:20) in the temple, an application of the words of Daniel to this dread event. The verb bdelussomai is to feel nausea because of stench, to abhor, to detest. Idolatry was a stench to God (Luk 16:15; Rev 17:4). Josephus tells us that the Romans burned the temple and offered sacrifices to their ensigns placed by the eastern gate when they proclaimed Titus as Emperor.
  
  Let him that readeth understand (ho anaginoskōn noeitō). This parenthesis occurs also in Mar 13:14. It is not to be supposed that Jesus used these words. They were inserted by Mark as he wrote his book and he was followed by Matthew.

• ye: Mar 13:14; Luk 19:43, Luk 21:20
  
  by: Dan 9:27, Dan 12:11
  
  whoso: Eze 40:4; Dan 9:23, Dan 9:25, Dan 10:12-14; Heb 2:1; Rev 1:3, Rev 3:22

Mat 24:16 then those in Judea—let them flee to the mounts;

• - Jesus states to his disciples once this takes place - those in Judea let them flee to the mounts.

Mat 24:17 he on the house-top—let him not come down to take up any thing out of his house;

• - This warning Jesus is given is for people to take off and do not stay there in Judea.

Mat 24:18 and he in the field—let him not turn back to take his garments.

• - This warning Jesus is given is for people to take off and do not stay there in Judea.

Mat 24:19 'And woe to those with child, and to those giving suck in those days;

• - This warning Jesus is given is for those who have children for it will be difficult for them to get out of there.

Mat 24:20 and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter, nor on a sabbath;

• - Jesus encourages the disciples when they go and travel to give this message to the people that they should pray that their flight (fleeing from Judea) may not be in winter, nor on a sabbath day.

Mat 24:21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.

• Jesus states to his disciples for there shall be then once the abomination of desolation had begun, there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the (Kosmos) World till, no, nor may be. So this would be one of the greatest and fearful events in world history ever to be done and never should be ever again.

• next post: #19

 

[ChristisGod]

Time for some truth !

The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:33–36), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18). And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.got?

Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events. There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, full preterism has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

So because of what Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, and we understand now that the great and fearful day of Yahweh was going to come when the prophet of Elijah had arrived, and that when Jesus had come, a great uproar was started at that time.

What were they going to be watching for, to be ready for?

Matthew 24:24-27
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Christophany,

Thank you for pointing out some problems, but as a person who believes all things were fulfilled about the coming of Jesus, I believe that he had physically had returned for his bride groom there in that age those who were waiting and watching, seen him come those who were unbelieving were not watching and did not see him but there are historical reports about the destruction of Jerusalem. Just wanted to share my own personal view, compared to what you had said sir, thank you for mentioning them.

God bless sir.

 

[ChristisGod]

Hello Christophany,

Thank you for pointing out some problems, but as a person who believes all things were fulfilled about the coming of Jesus, I believe that he had physically had returned for his bride groom there in that age those who were waiting and watching, seen him come those who were unbelieving were not watching and did not see him but there are historical reports about the destruction of Jerusalem. Just wanted to share my own personal view, compared to what you had said sir, thank you for mentioning them.

God bless sir.

No one saw His VISIBLE return as He promised EVERY EYE WOULD SEE, no exceptions.

There is no RECORD in Scripture or the early church Fathers of HIS VISIBLE RETURN- His 2nd Coming. It is still future and preterism is a false teaching a heresy, Denying our Lords Return.

And don't think for a moment the false teachings in your "studies" will not go unchecked, unchallenged and refuted with sound doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

we understand now that the great and fearful day of Yahweh was going to come when the prophet of Elijah had arrived

That’s not exactly what it says…
It says Elijah will come before the day of the Lord but it doesn’t actually state that day will come simultaneously with Elijah or how much time might elapse between the two.

Ive recently thought that John the Baptist came in the same spirit as Elijah but that he wasn’t literally and actually Elijah, so I wondered if one of the two witnesses in Revelation who fire comes out of them to destroy those who try to harm them might actually have to BE Elijah for the complete fulfillment to occur.

It’s sort of like how Jesus got up and read but stopped mid sentence. But they didn’t seem to get that He was saying only part of the sentence/prophecy was fulfilled that very day because they still thought all of it must be literally fulfilled at once.

 

[ChristisGod]

I do not deny the Lords return, and your right is no record of what you had said, however, it he was seen by believers who were watching and waiting to see him. Ask yourself this, in this day in age are you watching and waiting and looking to see the Lord to return? They were in that day in age, and that is the purpose of this thread to go over it.

This is why I am trying to share a bible collection of the scriptures dealing with it.

When it comes to what you are sharing context is needed my friend, listen to this




Do you believe all of this has to deal with us today?

There is NO BIBLICAL or ECF's written record of His VISIBLE return anywhere and Jesus warned us about those false teachers who would believe like you-preterism. His invisible return where He is not ruling and reigning on this earth.

I've been debating this before you were born and while shawn was in diapers.

hope this helps !!!

 

[MatthewG]

That’s not exactly what it says…
It says Elijah will come before the day of the Lord but it doesn’t actually state that day will come simultaneously with Elijah or how much time might elapse between the two.

The Disciples suggested to Jesus who people seen him as; so they people had believed Elijah had come but they were unsure of who it was, of course as shared in the verses in Matthew 11:13-15, you can see that Jesus said that Elijah had come.

Here is what some the disciples said about Jesus in that day in age about what others thought about him.

Luke 9:19 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”

So you can see that people believed that Jesus, was John the Baptist, some Elijah, and still others prophets of long ago has come back to life.

Ive recently thought that John the Baptist came in the same spirit as Elijah but that he wasn’t literally and actually Elijah, so I wondered if one of the two witnesses in Revelation who fire comes out of them to destroy those who try to harm them might actually have to BE Elijah for the complete fulfillment to occur.

Glad to see you think about these things and try to piece them together, though I have no comment on the two witnesses at the moment.

It’s sort of like how Jesus got up and read but stopped mid sentence. But they didn’t seem to get that He was saying only part of the sentence/prophecy was fulfilled that very day because they still thought all of it must be literally fulfilled at once.

Not so sure what you mean here, ma'am.

 

[ChristisGod]

THE EARLY DATE OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION

In order to sustain their view that either most or all major prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70, the preterists are forced to presume the Book of Revelation was written before AD 70. The traditional date of the writing of the Book of Revelation by the Apostle John is AD 96. This late date is based on the testimony of Irenaeus who wrote about AD 180 of the Revelation: “For it was seen, not a long time ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.” Clement of Alexandria confirmed the testimony of Irenaeus. In the Fourth Century Epiphanius wrote that John’s exile to the Isle of Patmos occurred between AD 41-53 in the reign of Claudius, but he strangely claimed John was 90 years of age at the time. Thus, Epiphanius seems to have been the first to advocate that Revelation was written before AD 96.

In modern times, such “stalwarts of truth” as Westcott and Hort have advocated the early date of the Revelation, suggesting it was written under Nero’s reign about AD 68 or 69. This writer puts very little credence in these corrupters of the Word of God, for it was Westcott and Hort who undermined the credibility of the Received Text with all their theories about the sacred text of the Greek New Testament.Preterism — Bethel Baptist Church

hope this helps !!!

The preterists must prove that Revelation was written before AD 70, else the first premise of the preterists falls. If this premise falls, it causes their whole system to collapse. That this system of eschatology is unstable is thus evident from the fact it is partially built upon the rotten foundation of a pre-supposition that is not well-founded in church history.

THE END OF THE MOSIAC COVENANT

Another of the weak premises on which preterism is built is the belief that the Mosiac Covenant did not cease until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. This is indeed a strange view to this writer. What saith the Scriptures to this assertion? Jesus said, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it” (Luke 16:16). The beginning of the end of the Mosiac Covenant started with John the Baptist. There was a transition period between the beginning of John’s ministry and its final fulfillment in the death of Christ. That it officially ended when Christ died is argued by the Apostle Paul, writing of Christ, said, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, naling it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days” (Col. 2:14-16). If the law were still in effect at this time (about AD 61), then men certainly could have judged what the Colossians ate and drank, what days they observed, and how they kept the sabbath days. But the law having been done away when Christ died, they were not to permit anyone to judge them in any of these matters.

The law was fulfilled when Christ died, not when divine judgment fell on Jerusalem in AD 70. Speaking of the cessation of the law in 2 Corinthians 3:6-11, Paul specifically declared “For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious” (2 Cor. 3:11). The Apostle thus maintained the law had been done away when he wrote the second letter to the Corinthians about AD 57. Therefore, if the law was done away when it was fulfilled in Christ’s death and was said to be done away when Paul wrote Second Corinthians, then the law was not in effect until Jerusalem fell in AD 70, when it finally ended according to preterists. Thus, another of the flimsy premises on which Preterism is built has given way to the clear teachings of Scripture and simple logic concerning those teachings.

THE USE OF THE TERM QUICKLY

Another premise on which preterism is founded is the term “quickly” used often by our Lord with reference to His Second coming (Rev. 22:7, 12, 22). The Greek word tachu, translated “quickly” in these passages is from the same stem as tachos which is translated “speedily” in Luke 18:8, and “shortly” in Romans 16:20; Revelation 1:1; 22:16. Both of these terms are relative, not absolute. Is coming in two years coming “quickly” or “speedily”? If Revelation were written in AD 68 and Christ came in AD 70, then He came “quickly” according to the Preterists. But to many people, two years would not be coming quickly. For this reason, we have to view these terms relatively, not absolutely.

The promise in Romans 16:20 asserts that “the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.” Will the preterists argue that this promise has been fulfilled? If so, when was it fulfilled? How was it fulfilled? What did the destruction of Jerusalem have to do with Satan’s being bruised under the feet of the Roman saints? Surely any thinking person would not be so credulous as to believe that “shortly” in this case meant but a few years. Would any right-thinking person build an entire system of eschatology on a term that is obviously used relatively, not absolutely?

THE END OF THE AGE VERSUS THE END OF THE WORLD

Another of the faulty premises on which preterism is built is the substitution of the word age for the word world in the phrase the end of the world. Following the Westcott-Hort text and all modern translations which have replaced the end of the world with the end of the age in Matthew 24:3, the preterists argue that the age referenced in this passage is that of the law which ended in AD 70.

If age is the correct translation in Matthew 24:3, then it must also be correct in Matthew 28:20. Indeed, all modern translations render the last part of this passage, “and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (NASB, NKJV). Now the Sovereign Grace Baptist preterist has painted himself in a corner here: according to his belief that age refers to the period which ended in AD 70, the Lord would then have only promised to be with His churches until AD 70 in Matthew 28:20, for if aion means age in Matthew 24:3, then it also must mean age in Matthew 28:20. Another problem in Matthew 28:20 for the preterist is the term always. Why would the Lord have promised to be with His churches always when He would actually only be with them until AD 70? If quickly must be interpreted absolutely, then so must always. As a matter of fact, always is a much more absolute term than quickly.

There was a reason the translators of the King James Version translated aion as world rather than age. Aion speaks of the world under the aspect of time whereas kosmos which is also translated world views the world under the aspect of space, according to Trench in his Synonyms of the New Testament. The translation age fits the philosophy of spiritists and other new-age advocates. Accordingly, there is no world to come in Mark 10:30; it is only another age to come as the new-agers advocated in the hit song of the 1960’s entitled Age of Aquarius. If there are only ends of ages and no end of the world, then one would have to conclude that the world will last forever. Indeed, it seems preterism, especially full preterism, offers no clear teaching on how this world will ever end.

THE CONTROVERSY OVER THE RESURRECTION

Partial preterists and full preterists differ on this point, as has been mentioned. Full preterists deny the future bodily resurrection of the saints who have died since AD 70. They are in agreement with Hymenaeus and Philetus of whom Paul wrote saying,
”Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2 18). Modern preterism is overthrowing the faith of many today. The future bodily resurrection of the saints is one tenant of the faith which they are seeking to overthrow.

This is an egregious heresy. According to the Apostle Paul, if there is no bodily resurrection of the saints, then Christ is not raised (1 Cor. 15:12-44). Some preterists contend our Lord does not now have the physical body which He had following His resurrection. If that be the case, then how could the angels have declared to the disciples who watched the Lord ascend into heaven, “Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). While the saints will not be resurrected with their mortal bodies of flesh and blood, they will nevertheless have immortal bodies of flesh and bone like our Lord has, which bodies are sustained by spirit, not blood ( 1 Cor. 15:50-54). According to the Apostle John, “we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” ( 1 John 3:2).

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[ChristisGod]

continued :

THE PURPOSE OF THE LORD’S SUPPER

The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance given to the Lord’s churches until He comes again (1 Cor. 11:23-26). Those who consider themselves full or consistent preterists have a real problem here. If Christ has already come, then there is no reason for the churches to observe the Lord’s Supper. According to the Apostle Paul, the Lord’s Supper is to be observed to show His death only until He comes. This writer knows of one church which has ceased to observe the Lord’s Supper since it has embraced the full preterist view of Biblical prophecy.

THE INTERPRETATION OF THE OLIVET DISCOURSE

A major difference between preterists and futurists is their interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of our Lord as recorded in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21. This discourse occurred in response to the disciples’ question to the Lord’s statement concerning the buildings of the temple being destroyed. They came to Him and said, “Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matt. 24:3).

Most futurists or pure Biblicists will acknowledge that much of this discourse was fulfilled in AD 70. Certainly the temple was destroyed as was the city of Jerusalem. But there are many events yet to occur, as a close examination of this discourse will reveal. Luke’s account of this discourse points out this fact. Luke 21:8-23 deal with the events leading up to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD 70. Luke 21:24 is the transitional verse, foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews among the nations until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, an event alluded to by Paul in Romans 11:25. Then Luke 21:25-28 describe those events which are yet future and will occur following the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Thus, Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse gives the chronological exposition of this important teaching. The accounts of Matthew and Mark must be interpreted in light of Luke’s chronology of prophesied events.

The more one studies preterism, the more he marvels that so many have believed its precepts. Preterism takes away the Blessed Hope of our Lord’s return. It denies we shall ever be bodily resurrected to stand before the Lord as even Job of old anticipated (Job 19:24-27). This system of eschatology has no answers for how this evil world will ever end. Consequently, preterism has nothing in it to commend itself to this writer or to edify his soul.

hope this helps !!!

 

[MatthewG]

@stunnedbygrace, I am going to continue in sharing the scripture relating to the subject, and if you have anymore things you would like to share here please feel free to do so, thank you for taking time to share what you did.

@Robert Gwin, it is really amazing that now today, we have the very Holy Spirit of God living with-in us, and that the kingdom of God resides with-in us according to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is what he said in Luke 17,

• Luk 17:20 And having been questioned by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God comes, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God does not come with observation;
• Luk 17:21 nor will they say, Behold, here; or behold, there; for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

Some people think I am odd for already accepting the Lords Return for that day in age, but even so what is important to continue to grow in the knowledge of the Lord Yeshua, and to learn from the principles that are shown and shared in the Bible from the Old Testament, Apostolic record, and the Letters that were written.

It is all about love, and edifying others and not to become dividing and hating others because of differences, as some people may desire to go down that road it is very lonely road I use to walk myself, hating God, Jesus, hating other people, even my family...

God is good, and when we turn and look towards His Son it changes everything, and we are given the Holy Spirit of God himself that lives with-in us, according to the scriptures, Romans 5:1-6! What a great hope, that is not just a feeling, it is a knowing that the Holy Spirit has been given to us by God through faith which is a gift of God for us believing on the death, burial and resurrection.

Love to you, and to all, and to any enemies out there, of me just trying to share what I have learned from the Bible and the internal evidences. No one has to believe me, but we can at least love each other despite the differences!

- Matthew Gallagher

 

[ChristisGod]

It is all about love, and edifying others and not to become dividing and hating others because of differences, as some people may desire to go down that road it is very lonely road I use to walk myself, hating God, Jesus, hating other people, even my family...


Love to you, and to all, and to any enemies out there, of me just trying to share what I have learned from the Bible and the internal evidences. No one has to believe me, but we can at least love each other despite the differences!

- Matthew Gallagher

[URL='https://www.christianityboard.com/bible/1-corinthians/13/']1 Corinthians 13[/URL]
[B]Love is [/B]patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs

[URL='https://www.christianityboard.com/bible/ephesians/4:29/']Ephesians 4:29[/URL]
Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.

[URL='https://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-4.htm']Ephesians 5:4[/URL]
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving.

[URL='https://biblehub.com/colossians/3-8.htm']Colossians 3:8[/URL]
But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

[URL='https://biblehub.com/colossians/4-6.htm']Colossians 4:6[/URL]
Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

[URL='https://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/10-12.htm']Ecclesiastes 10:12[/URL]
The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious, but the lips of a fool consume him.

Does love act like you did yesterday with your abusive language used against me and then not apologize for saying them ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There’s also, about the word quickly, a feeling of suddenly and without warning. That ties into the parable of the ten virgins, who had no time to fill their lamps. It also ties in to coming like lightning flashes in the sky, that fast.

The reason I initially believed we would be gathered before that terrible time is because no one knows the day He will come and it will happen quickly. But if, as some said, He only came after the terrible time of trouble coming on the whole earth, we could absolutely know when He was coming as we saw all the terrible things spoken of come to pass. We could pinpoint it very closely as to when He would return. So that’s how I saw that two different things/timeframes were being spoken of.

And when I read more, through that lens, I saw many other things line up. For instance, two different reapings are spoken of. The first one sounds pleasant and the second one sounds horrific. So when I was confused about how some verses, including in the OT, seemed to firmly say He removes the righteous before wrath, but others seemed to say He removes the wicked and leaves in place the righteous, I was like, well which is it?? And the first reaping to remove the righteous prewrath and the second to remove the wicked after wrath and leave those who repent and physically survive it, made complete sense.

It’s the trying to mash it all together in one timeframe that creates the confusion.

But we can look and find another example of that confusion when they wanted to insist all prophecy regarding Jesus had to happen at once, and even despite the humongous clue we are given along with hindsight, we STILL want to insist as they did then that it must be mashed all together!

 

[MatthewG]

Continue from post #6

Let's continue to look at Matthew, then move on to Mark, and then take a look at Luke, about what Jesus had said about these things of his coming.

Mat 24:21 for there will then be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor may be.

Commentary from John Gill:
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation,.... This is urged as a reason for their speedy flight; since the calamity that would come upon those who should remain in the city, what through the sword, famine, pestilence, murders, robberies, &c. would

be such as was not since the beginning of the world, to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The burning of Sodom and Gomorrha, the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all their distresses and afflictions in the times of the Maccabees, are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell the Jews in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Great desolations have been made in the besieging and at the taking of many famous cities, as Troy, Babylon, Carthage, &c. but none of them are to be mentioned with the deplorable case of this city. Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this; and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says (m), that

"never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''

And indeed, all this came upon them for their impenitence and infidelity, and for their rejection and murdering of the Son of God; for as never any before, or since, committed the sin they did, or ever will, so there never did, or will, the same calamity befall a nation, as did them.

(m) De Bello Jud. l. 6. c. 11.

Mat 24:22 And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, will those days be shortened.

Interesting Commentary from John Gill

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened,.... That is, those days of tribulation which commenced at the siege of Jerusalem; and therefore cannot refer to the times before it, and the shortening of them by it, which were very dreadful and deplorable through the murders and robberies of the cut-throats and zealots; but to those after the siege began, which were very distressing to those that were within; and which, if they had not been shortened, or if the siege had been lengthened out further,

there should no flesh be saved; not one Jew in the city of Jerusalem would have been saved; they must everyone have perished by famine, or pestilence, or sword, or by the intestine wars and murders among themselves: nor indeed, if the siege had continued, would it have fared better with the inhabitants of the other parts of the country, among whom also many of the same calamities prevailed and spread themselves; so that, in all likelihood, if these days had been continued a little longer, there had not been a Jew left in all the land.

But for the elect's sake; those who were chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world, to believe in him, and to be saved by him with an everlasting salvation; both those that were in the city, or, at least, who were to spring from some that were there, as their immediate offspring, or in future ages, and therefore they, and their posterity, must not be cut off; and also those chosen ones, and real believers, who were at Pella, and in the mountains, and other places, for the sake of these, and that they might be delivered from these pressing calamities,

those days shall be shortened: for otherwise, if God had not preserved a seed, a remnant, according to the election of grace, that should be saved, they had been as Sodom and as Gomorrha, not one would have escaped. The shortening of those days is not to be understood literally, as if the natural days, in which this tribulation was, were to be shorter than usual. The Jews indeed often speak of the shortening of days in this sense, as miraculously done by God: so they say (n), that

"five miracles were wrought for our father Jacob, when he went from Beersheba to go to Haran. The first miracle was, that אתקצרו ליה שעוי דיומא, "the hours of the day were shortened for him", and the sun set before its time, because his word desired to speak with him.''

They also say (o),

"that the day in which Ahaz died, was shortened ten hours, that they might not mourn for him; and which afterwards rose up, and in the day that Hezekiah was healed, ten hours were added to it.''

But the meaning here is, that the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it, should be sooner ended: not than God had determined, but than the sin of the Jews deserved, and the justice of God might have required in strict severity, and might be reasonably expected, considering the aggravated circumstances of their iniquities. A like manner of speech is used by the Karaite Jews (p), who say,

"if we walk in our law, why is our captivity prolonged, and there is not found balm for our wounds? and why are not נתמעטו ימיהם, "the days" of the golden and silver kingdom "lessened", for the righteousness of the righteous, which were in their days?''

(n) Targum Jonathan ben Uzziel, & Targum Hieros. in Gem xxviii. 10. (o) R. Sol. Jarchi in Isa. xxxviii. 8. (p) Chilluk M. S. apud Trigland. de sect. Karaeorum, c. 9. p. 147.

Mat 24:23 Then if anyone may say to you, Behold, here [is] the Christ! Or, Here! You may not believe;

• - Jesus continues to warn his disciples - to beware of false Messiahs who say that they are the Lord Jesus Christ, because no matter if it's there or here in whatever a person tries to lead in a direction the Messiah not to believe !

Mat 24:24 for there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

• Jesus tells his disciples, there will arise false Christ - in that day in that area, and false prophets, in that day with-in the area when the desolation has begun, and they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead people astray, if possible also the chosen.
• Jesus is most surely given them a warning to be careful and not to believe those who are said to be giving great signs and wonders. There is historical accounts of these things happening in that day in age as Jesus is now promising to come about.

• there: Mat 24:5, Mat 24:11; 2Pe 2:1-3, 2Pe 3:17
  
  and shall: Deu 13:1; 2Th 2:9-11; Rev 13:13-14, Rev 19:20

Mat 24:25 Behold, I told you beforehand.

• Jesus is telling them - Behold - I have told you the signs of what will be coming about when the end of the age would be closing in, now I am telling you and now you have heard.

Mat 24:26 If therefore they may say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness, you may not go forth; behold, in the inner chambers, you may not believe;

• Jesus goes on to say to his disciples, If therefore they may say to you, (the False messiahs and their false prophets), Behold, he is in the wilderness, you may not go froth, behold in the inner chambers, you may not believe.
• Interesting word for chambers:
  

  tameion
  
  tam-i'-on
  
  Neuter contraction of a presumed derivative of ταμίας tamias (a dispenser or distributor; akin to τέμνω temnō, to cut); a dispensary or magazine, that is, a chamber on the ground floor or interior of an Oriental house (generally used for storage or privacy, a spot for retirement): - secret chamber, closet, storehouse.

Mat 24:27 for as the lightning comes forth from the east, and appears to the west, so will also be the coming of the Son of Man;

• The coming of the Lord, would be visible, and not done in secret because of the Lord and his ascension so he would return in like manner, just like a lighting strike is visible in the sky, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
• The Apostles continued to encourage the believers to be watching and waiting on the day of the Lord, in which He would return to save them from the wrath of God that would be poured out in the nation of Israel. Which those who were watching and waiting would be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
• Those who remained would be destroyed.

to the next post: #22

 

[ScottA]

Ugh...this is the rehashing of age old assumptions for and against, which is also foretold.

There are many questions presented here and many assumptions of speculation and conjecture, which is not a good approach to seeking the truth, leaving many to continue to stumble. The better approach is to simply "ask." The Spirit is fully willing and capable of answering with "all truth." But whoever answers for themselves out of their own understanding, will not receive what is actually true, for they have stepped in front of Him who is withheld by that very act of self-diversion.

"Ask!"