Biblical Salvation

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I have already pointed out. The dead, unless they are made alive, can do nothing. They see not, hear not, more so repent not.

I am sorry, but your argument there does not address the issue.

A dead person can not do anything, He cant walk he cant talk, he cant think, he cant sleep or eat. he cant reason, He cant be brought to repentance, or chose to reject in sin, He cant do anything

So using this as an example to prove your point is taking the term death and applying to a living soul out of context.

I disagree. I don’t say that as for an example. Have you read my post #19? There, I talked about the state of fallen man. They are in a state of death. Here’s the link.

Biblical Salvation

Tong
R2498

 

[Truther]

This is mainly a response to the unbiblical teaching by some of the “Reformed”, who teach that a sinner is first “regenerated” by the Holy Spirit, which then “makes them alive”, to call on the Lord for salvation. First off there is a problem here. The Holy Bible is very clear, that when it uses the term “regeneration” in relation to the salvation of sinners, it means being “born-again”, which is the same as being “saved”. Titus 3:5 says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit”. Here we have the term “regeneration”, from the Greek, “παλιγγενεσία”, which literally means, “again birth”. This “regeneration” is the work of God the Holy Spirit, Who uses the blood of Jesus Christ to “λουτρόν”, (bathe) the repentant sinner, and to “ἀνακαίνωσις” (renew) them by His conversion.

Secondly, appeal is made to Ephesians 2:1-6 as a “key” passage to support this theory, that the sinner is first “regenerated”, where Paul speaks of “making alive” the sinner, who is dead in their sins. Nowhere in this passage is there even a hint to say that the sinner is first “made alive”, and then “able” to call on the Lord for their salvation. Rather, Paul is here showing how Christians used to live, “in which you once walked” (v.2), “we all once lived” (3), and how God Who is rich in His Mercy, has saved us to be His children, apart from any our merited good works! In Colossians 2:13 Paul uses very similar language, “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together (συνεζωοποιησεν) with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses”.

The aorist participle in the course of a narration sometimes expresses a simultaneous action…Col. ii.13” (G Winer; A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.430)

“χαρισάμενος: “forgiving”. Forgiveness is contemporary with quickening” (Expositors Greek Testament)

“Paul identifies our being made alive with Christ as being caused by, or synonymous with, or simultaneous to, God’s having forgiven us our trespasses” (College Press Commentary)

Here Paul tells us that the sinner is “made alive” in Jesus, at the same time that they are forgiven ALL of their sins (πάντα τὰ παραπτώματα). And not before as taught by some. There is no sequence of events in the Greek. It is very clear from this, that both passages, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, teach that the sinner is “made alive” on having their sins forgiven, not before of after!

Ephesians 1:13-14 further clarifies this, Ephesians 1:13-14, “In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory”. The KJV is wrong to suggest that there is a time sequence here, but the Greek is very clear, it is “on believing in Him, [you] were sealed”, that is, “made a possession” of God the Holy Spirit. The sealing was the result of believing, and that was the result of hearing the gospel. The action of believing and sealing by the Spirit, happen simultaneously. Which is, “you heard…you believed…and then you were sealed.”. No time lapse in the Greek! The repentant, believing sinner becomes a child of God, when they are “regenerated” and “washed” and “renewed” by God the Holy Spirit.

The clearest teaching in the New Testament on the “order of salvation” of the lost sinner, is found in Acts chapter 2.

In this chapter of the birth of the Christian Church, we have the clearest Bible Teaching on how a lost sinner is born-again, and becomes a child of The Living God.

Acts chapter 2 records the first “sermon” that is preached, which is by the Apostle Peter. Here we have Peter preach on the Deity, Life, Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In his sermon, Peter quotes extensively from the Prophet Joel, where we read, “and it shall be, everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (v.21, literal Greek)

The quote is from Joel 2:32, which has “Yahweh”, and Peter here uses it for Jesus Christ, which Paul also does in Romans 10:13. Clear evidence that the Apostles believed Jesus Christ to be Yahweh, the Eternal, Unchanging, God!

It is clear that those who heard this Gospel Message, and were convicted by God the Holy Spirit, were to “invoke”, the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

After Peter had finished this message, those who were present, we are told, “were cut to the heart (κατενυγησαν την καρδιαν)” (verse 37), that is, their hearts were “pierced, stung sharply”, by the convicting of the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of Peter. Jesus Himself says in John chapter 16, “And when He (the Holy Spirit) is come, He will reprove (ἐλέγχω, to convict, find fault with) the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me”. Here in Acts is the fulfilment of these words of Jesus

After their “conviction” by the Gospel Message, we are told that they, “said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (37). There are some who suppose that the sinner must “do” nothing themselves. It is very clear that these sinners asked what must they DO. Neither Peter, or any of the other Apostles, say to them, that they must not “do” anything, but simply have “faith”. Instead, in the next verse we have Peter’s response. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (38-39). It must not be assumed from Peter’s reply, that the sinners sins are somehow removed in water baptism, which is taught by some. It is the “repenting” which is of their sins, that gets their sins forgiven. This is what the Lord Jesus says in Luke 24:47, “and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” The word “remission” is from the Greek ἄφεσις, which denotes, “release, as from bondage, pardon, forgiveness”, as though they had never sinned.

We are told here, that when these sinners repented of their sins, and received forgiveness from the Lord, that they would also “receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit”. In chapter one of Acts, Jesus tells the Apostles, that not many days later, they would be “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (v 5). This was fulfilled in chapter 2, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit” (v 4). This is the “Gift” of the Holy Spirit, which Peter speaks of. The receiving of this Gift, we are told in Acts 1, gives “power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (v 8).

It is very clear from what the Bible teaches, that a sinner is only saved after they “repent and believe”, and they are not “made alive” prior to calling on the Lord for salvation, as Reformed theology wrongly teaches!

If you skip Acts 2:38 you are a (saints) mail thief.

Nobody can officially find an alternative salvation in the Epistles, nor are they qualified to read or apply them unless they obey Acts 2:38 first.

 

[Pearl]

that is what I believe and this thread is about. But I believe that the Bible says this takes place before a sinner can be saved from their sins. Nothing "fruitless" about this!

it's when you are born again. And you sin - past, present and future is forgiven by God's grace and to him you are then without sin as God cannot accept sin.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

it's when you are born again. And you sin - past, present and future is forgiven by God's grace and to him you are then without sin as God cannot accept sin.

So after I am born again I can live an immoral life and guaranteed to get to heaven after I die?

The WHOLE world will want this!

 

[Pearl]

So after I am born again I can live an immoral life and guaranteed to get to heaven after I die?

The WHOLE world will want this!

Of course you can't. Why would a Christian think that. If you are truly born again by your own choice and not as some believe through so-called infant baptism. It is that new birth by our own choice that makes us Christians not by anything our parents may have decided for us. People who count their rebirth as something that happened when they were babies are not true Christians.

1 John 2:1-3
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. ...

 

[Addy]

This is always the slanderous accusation of those who hold onto their legalistic views...

Those GRACE ABUSERS.... they get to live it up and sin all they want.

You can't work with this kind of mindset... God does not WASTE HIS GRACE... It is given freely to those who NEED it...
He will deal with those who have ABUSED it. This is a LAME argument.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Of course you can't. Why would a Christian think that. If you are truly born again by your own choice and not as some believe through so-called infant baptism. It is that new birth by our own choice that makes us Christians not by anything our parents may have decided for us. People who count their rebirth as something that happened when they were babies are not true Christians.

1 John 2:1-3
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. ...

There are many Christians who do live in sin and have backslidden. As they have their future sins already forgiven as you say, they can carry on as there is no need to repent. Such is your gospel

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

This is always the slanderous accusation of those who hold onto their legalistic views...

Those GRACE ABUSERS.... they get to live it up and sin all they want.

You can't work with this kind of mindset... God does not WASTE HIS GRACE... It is given freely to those who NEED it...
He will deal with those who have ABUSED it. This is a LAME argument.

Have you heard of Christians who backslid from their faith?

 

[justbyfaith]

What you say there does not refute what I said in my post #19. Let me quote it here for you.

“Mankind, in Adam, were put under judgement resulting to condemnation. History, written out in scriptures, tells us what became of mankind, with Adam having chosen to hear and follow the voice of the devil. Sin made his dwelling in their flesh, making them slaves thereof. Now, even while mankind have their will, being a slave, their will does not really matter and was overtaken by sin that enslaved them. This truth could well be seen in the story of mankind in the time of the great flood in Noah’s time. What became of mankind is described by God himself who said that every intents of the thoughts of man’s heart are evil continually even from their youth. Such I would say is a state of death.

It is obvious that mankind needs the help and salvation of God from what they have become, that is, from the state of death. That unless God gives his grace of salvation to a man, no man will be saved. We see in scriptures that God gave grace to some men, men He have chosen to give grace and save them.

Now, considering this state of death that fallen mankind is in, we know that they have no life in them. And having no life, he can’t only not do as he wills but that he can do nothing that pertains to life. To be able to, he must be born again, and that, unto life. Only when that happens to a man, that he could do things pertaining to life.

However, a born again man does not mean that he is perfect by having been born again, but that, he is taken out from being in the state of death or being dead, and so is enabled to do what he could not otherwise do had he not been born again. He could now see the kingdom of God.”

One who is in a state of death or is dead, acn not see or hear or repent or believe or do anything, unless he is first made alive or quickened.

Tong
R2496

If the logical conclusion of a premise is faulty, then you ought to consider that the premise is also faulty.

 

[amigo de christo]

So after I am born again I can live an immoral life and guaranteed to get to heaven after I die?

The WHOLE world will want this!

Just remember God once said , MY PEOPLE PERISH from lack of Knowledge .
Any person that desires a gospel which says we can have both JESUS and sin , desires only darkness .
But a lamb desires only truth . For by grace GOD has put the love of truth into its heart .
And its desire is not for the lusts of this world , the cares or pleasures in life , the lust of the eyes
NO its desire is to serve honor and obey HE who has saved it . Thus it hates sin , even the sins of its own flesh .
A true lamb would never use grace to make void what GOD calls good and to call good what GOD has called evil .
Any one who does such a thing , DOES NOT KNOW the ONE TRUE BIBLICAL JESUS . Rather they know only
another jesus which man preaches and which feeds their carnal desires . AND that one is NOT JESUS , ITS
the one who sets not the captives free . ITS satan . That is clear and to the point , but it is truth .
JESUS did not come to have us to feel free in sin or to sin , but rather to make us free from sin .
Now march on in the LORD my friends .

 

[Addy]

Have you heard of Christians who backslid from their faith?

I have heard of CHRISTIANS who dare JUDGE people as having LOST their SALVATION when in truth they have not. What happens between God and a sinner is just that... BETWEEN God and sinner. Man judges by outward appearance but God sees the heart.

Life is a journey... sometimes people fall... sometimes they stay down for some time. Sanctification is a SACRED thing... Sadly many Christians do not know their place... and they do more damage than good... they breath DEATH rather than LIFE into others.

You are talking to someone who knows exactly how this works and what it looks like. Freedom comes to those who accept that Christ's Blood is enough. Joy and Peace come to those who are able to ACCEPT the gift of Salvation and allow God to do His work.

I think you and I have said enough... we are not going to come into agreement.

 

[Pearl]

There are many Christians who do live in sin and have backslidden. As they have their future sins already forgiven as you say, they can carry on as there is no need to repent. Such is your gospel

Well I've never met any like that. Not ones who are truly born again. The ones who do must be those who think 'mixture' is okay.

 

[amigo de christo]

Have you heard of Christians who backslid from their faith?

Oh yes . And even in pauls day this occured .
HE says , having damnation because they have LEFT OFF the FAITH THEY HAD AT FIRST . WHICH MEANS what
they DID HAVE GOOD FAITH but left it . SO yea that does happen . LET the lambs exhort one another
daily in sound truth , lest any does become hardened through the decietfulness of .....................SIN .
SIN is a killer and it will harden the heart . IF the KING HIMSELF warned to not sin
if the apostels warned to not let it once be named , WE NEED TO DO THE SAME . WE must look out for one another .
FOR if one truly has the SPIRIT , then by the SPIRIT they would be heeding the LORD and they would be
exhorting one another to flee evil and to do good .

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Well I've never met any like that. Not ones who are truly born again. The ones who do must be those who think 'mixture' is okay.

What about Ravi Zacharias?

 

[amigo de christo]

STRAP ON ALL THE ARMOUR OF GOD and HIT the trenches , it is truly all out war for the souls of men .
Point to Christ and all sound biblical doctrine by which the lambs shall be built up to withstand the vile and evil days through FAITH IN CHRIST .
The falling away will not be slowing down . This world will grow only far worse as will many churches as well .
The lambs must be prepared to lose all for the sake of JESUS , yet having ALL HOPE IN HIM and HIS PROMISES .
Forward march and have no fear of man or what he can do . DO all for the sake of others , pointing only to Christ .

 

[Pearl]

I have heard of CHRISTIANS who dare JUDGE people as having LOST their SALVATION when in truth they have not. What happens between God and a sinner is just that... BETWEEN God and sinner. Man judges by outward appearance but God sees the heart.

Life is a journey... sometimes people fall... sometimes they stay down for some time. Sanctification is a SACRED thing... Sadly many Christians do not know their place... and they do more damage than good... they breath DEATH rather than LIFE into others.

You are talking to someone who knows exactly how this works and what it looks like. Freedom comes to those who accept that Christ's Blood is enough. Joy and Peace come to those who are able to ACCEPT the gift of Salvation and allow God to do His work.

I think you and I have said enough... we are not going to come into agreement.

Truth is truth. We accept is @Addy but sadly many can't even see it.

 

[Addy]

What about Ravi Zacharias?

YEP.... He is going to have to answer to God in a SEVERE manner.... for his hypocrisy... for his perversions... for his slander... for bearing false witness... neither you nor I have the right to make assumptions about what will happen to him.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

YEP.... He is going to have to answer to God in a SEVERE manner.... for his hypocrisy... for his perversions... for his slander... for bearing false witness... neither you nor I have the right to make assumptions about what will happen to him.

I assume nothing as it is not up to me. However his life is an open book now.

 

[Pearl]

What about Ravi Zacharias?

What about you yourself.

John 8:8
“Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone . . . .”

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

What about you yourself.

John 8:8
“Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone . . . .”

What about me? Do you know me to quote this verse?