Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Randy,
Thank you for the encouragement!
We will need it!
We must walk in the footsteps of our Master,
The passion of the Church is at hand..
Peace be with you!
Breaking: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
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Hello Randy,
Thank you for the encouragement!
We will need it!
We must walk in the footsteps of our Master,
The passion of the Church is at hand..
Peace be with you!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Pope Francis, Same-Sex Unions, & Chicken Little Mass Hysteria | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)
Despite his reputation as a strident traditionalist—the current Archbishop of San Francisco, Salvatore Cordileone, provided one of the stronger defenses of Pope Francis’s words from the US episcopate. In an official statement, he explained the Church’s approach:
“In our bishops region’s audience with Pope Francis last January during our ad limina visit (the visit diocesan bishops make every five years to the Vatican), the topic of civil unions came up in conversation. The Holy Father clearly differentiated between a civil arrangement which accords mutual benefits to two people, and marriage. The former, he said, can in no way be equated to marriage, which remains unique.
“I would add that a civil union of this type (one which is not equated to marriage) should be as inclusive as possible, and not be restricted to two people of the same sex in a presumed sexual relationship. There is no reason, for example, why a brother and a sister, both of whom are unmarried and support each other, should not have access to these kinds of benefits. Marriage is unique because it is the only institution that connects children to their mothers and fathers, and therefore is presumed to be a sexual relationship. Indeed, the sexual relationship that marriage is presumed to involve is the only kind by which children are naturally made. The nature of marriage, the place of sex within a virtuous life, these great teachings of the Church come to us from God, are illuminated by reason, and do not change.”
I must admit I was surprised by the overwhelming reaction to this story today. As someone who has followed Francis closely since the beginning of his papacy and has become familiar with his thought and outlook, nothing struck me as unusual or remarkable about his comments. The words Francis spoke were neither unprecedented nor inconsistent with what he has said in the past. Those who were hoping that this was a watershed moment or change in Church teaching on human sexuality will be disappointed. Those who imagined that these words somehow meant that Pope Francis had crossed an integral doctrinal line are also terribly mistaken.
Fr. Agustino Torres, in an Instagram video, (“The Pope Was Misquoted AGAIN!”, expresses his belief that the Holy Father has once again been poorly served by an English translation. I’m so shocked I think I will faint! I’ve seen that so many times I have lost count. It’s about as common as water being next to a fish.
It’s heartening to see that Catholic News Agency: after playing a big role in the initial controversy, has seen fit to clarify in much greater depth. JD Flynn has written the article, “What did Pope Francis say about civil unions? A CNA Explainer” (10-21-20). I again quote at length, for the sake of my readers:
While the pope did not elaborate on the meaning of those remarks in the video, Pope Francis has spoken before to encourage parents and relatives not to ostracize or shun children who have identified as LGBT. This seems to be the sense in which the pope spoke about the right of people to be a part of the family.
Some have suggested that when Pope Francis spoke about a “right to a family,” the pope was offering a kind of tacit endorsement of adoption by same-sex couples. But the pope has previously spoken against such adoptions, saying that through them children are “deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God,” and saying that “every person needs a male father and a female mother that can help them shape their identity.” . . .
What did Pope Francis say about gay marriage?
Nothing. The topic of gay marriage was not discussed in the documentary. In his ministry, Pope Francis has frequently affirmed the doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church that marriage is a lifelong partnership between one man and one woman.
While Pope Francis has frequently encouraged a welcoming disposition to Catholics who identify as LGBT, the pope has also said that “marriage is between a man and a woman,” and said that “the family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage,” and that efforts to redefine marriage “threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation.” . . .
Some people have said what the pope taught is heresy. Is that true?
No. The pope’s remarks did not deny or call into question any doctrinal truth that Catholics must hold or believe. In fact, the pope has frequently affirmed the Church’s doctrinal teaching regarding marriage. . . .
What does the Church teach about homosexuality?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that those who identify as LGBT “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
The Catechism elaborates that homosexual inclinations are “objectively disordered,” homosexual acts are “contrary to the natural law,” and those who identify as lesbian and gay, like all people, are called to the virtue of chastity.
Now [I discovered in the morning when I got up], Dr. Pedro Gabriel has contributed his own very helpful article: “Those Pope Francis quotes: Video editing and media controversy” (Where Peter Is, 10-22-20). I quote it at length:
What the Pope says in a documentary in his private capacity does not constitute an official “Vatican stance”, nor is it magisterial.
Still, a cacophony ensued, in which the usual voices used this proof—yet again—that Pope Francis is heterodox.
Fortunately, in the midst of this cacophony, some people on social media were apparently able to get ahold of the incendiary clip. We see it here . . .
After a bit of research, I discovered that these clips are actually not original to the documentary, but are from a 2019 interview that the Pope granted to Mexican journalist Valentina Alazraki. The video of the full interview can be watched here: [link posted]
The part where Pope Francis mentions that homosexuals have a right to a family appears after the 56-minute mark. Please note that the words, the background, the tone of voice, and the gestures of the Pope match the documentary videoclip, so it’s quite clear that this is the primary source.
Here is my translation of what the Pope said in full context. In red, we can see the parts that were quoted.
“Once I was asked a question on a flight—it made me angry afterwards, it made me angry because of how the media reported it—about the family integration of people with homosexual orientation, and I said: homosexual people have a right be a part of a family, people with homosexual orientation have a right to be in a family and the parents have the right to recognize this son as homosexual, this daughter as homosexual. Nobody should be thrown out or be miserable because of it.
Another thing—I said—when we see some sign in children that are growing, and then you send them… I should have said to a ‘professional’, but I said ‘psychiatrist’. I wanted to say a professional, because sometimes there are signs in adolescence or pre-adolescence where they don’t know if it is a homosexual tendency or if the thymus gland atrophied with time—I don’t know, a thousand things, no? So, a professional. The headline of the newspaper: ‘The Pope sends homosexuals to the psychiatrist’. It is not true! They asked me a question and I repeated again: ‘They are sons of God, they have a right to a family, and so forth’. Another thing is… and I explained: I was wrong in using that word, but wanted to say this: ‘When you notice something str’… “Ah, it’s strange…”. No, it’s not strange. It’s something out of the ordinary. In other words, they took a small word to nullify the context. There, what I said was: ‘they have a right to a family’. And that does not mean approving homosexual acts, not in the least.”
continued
Despite his reputation as a strident traditionalist—the current Archbishop of San Francisco, Salvatore Cordileone, provided one of the stronger defenses of Pope Francis’s words from the US episcopate. In an official statement, he explained the Church’s approach:
“In our bishops region’s audience with Pope Francis last January during our ad limina visit (the visit diocesan bishops make every five years to the Vatican), the topic of civil unions came up in conversation. The Holy Father clearly differentiated between a civil arrangement which accords mutual benefits to two people, and marriage. The former, he said, can in no way be equated to marriage, which remains unique.
“I would add that a civil union of this type (one which is not equated to marriage) should be as inclusive as possible, and not be restricted to two people of the same sex in a presumed sexual relationship. There is no reason, for example, why a brother and a sister, both of whom are unmarried and support each other, should not have access to these kinds of benefits. Marriage is unique because it is the only institution that connects children to their mothers and fathers, and therefore is presumed to be a sexual relationship. Indeed, the sexual relationship that marriage is presumed to involve is the only kind by which children are naturally made. The nature of marriage, the place of sex within a virtuous life, these great teachings of the Church come to us from God, are illuminated by reason, and do not change.”
I must admit I was surprised by the overwhelming reaction to this story today. As someone who has followed Francis closely since the beginning of his papacy and has become familiar with his thought and outlook, nothing struck me as unusual or remarkable about his comments. The words Francis spoke were neither unprecedented nor inconsistent with what he has said in the past. Those who were hoping that this was a watershed moment or change in Church teaching on human sexuality will be disappointed. Those who imagined that these words somehow meant that Pope Francis had crossed an integral doctrinal line are also terribly mistaken.
Fr. Agustino Torres, in an Instagram video, (“The Pope Was Misquoted AGAIN!”, expresses his belief that the Holy Father has once again been poorly served by an English translation. I’m so shocked I think I will faint! I’ve seen that so many times I have lost count. It’s about as common as water being next to a fish.
It’s heartening to see that Catholic News Agency: after playing a big role in the initial controversy, has seen fit to clarify in much greater depth. JD Flynn has written the article, “What did Pope Francis say about civil unions? A CNA Explainer” (10-21-20). I again quote at length, for the sake of my readers:
While the pope did not elaborate on the meaning of those remarks in the video, Pope Francis has spoken before to encourage parents and relatives not to ostracize or shun children who have identified as LGBT. This seems to be the sense in which the pope spoke about the right of people to be a part of the family.
Some have suggested that when Pope Francis spoke about a “right to a family,” the pope was offering a kind of tacit endorsement of adoption by same-sex couples. But the pope has previously spoken against such adoptions, saying that through them children are “deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God,” and saying that “every person needs a male father and a female mother that can help them shape their identity.” . . .
What did Pope Francis say about gay marriage?
Nothing. The topic of gay marriage was not discussed in the documentary. In his ministry, Pope Francis has frequently affirmed the doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church that marriage is a lifelong partnership between one man and one woman.
While Pope Francis has frequently encouraged a welcoming disposition to Catholics who identify as LGBT, the pope has also said that “marriage is between a man and a woman,” and said that “the family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage,” and that efforts to redefine marriage “threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation.” . . .
Some people have said what the pope taught is heresy. Is that true?
No. The pope’s remarks did not deny or call into question any doctrinal truth that Catholics must hold or believe. In fact, the pope has frequently affirmed the Church’s doctrinal teaching regarding marriage. . . .
What does the Church teach about homosexuality?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that those who identify as LGBT “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
The Catechism elaborates that homosexual inclinations are “objectively disordered,” homosexual acts are “contrary to the natural law,” and those who identify as lesbian and gay, like all people, are called to the virtue of chastity.
Now [I discovered in the morning when I got up], Dr. Pedro Gabriel has contributed his own very helpful article: “Those Pope Francis quotes: Video editing and media controversy” (Where Peter Is, 10-22-20). I quote it at length:
What the Pope says in a documentary in his private capacity does not constitute an official “Vatican stance”, nor is it magisterial.
Still, a cacophony ensued, in which the usual voices used this proof—yet again—that Pope Francis is heterodox.
Fortunately, in the midst of this cacophony, some people on social media were apparently able to get ahold of the incendiary clip. We see it here . . .
After a bit of research, I discovered that these clips are actually not original to the documentary, but are from a 2019 interview that the Pope granted to Mexican journalist Valentina Alazraki. The video of the full interview can be watched here: [link posted]
The part where Pope Francis mentions that homosexuals have a right to a family appears after the 56-minute mark. Please note that the words, the background, the tone of voice, and the gestures of the Pope match the documentary videoclip, so it’s quite clear that this is the primary source.
Here is my translation of what the Pope said in full context. In red, we can see the parts that were quoted.
“Once I was asked a question on a flight—it made me angry afterwards, it made me angry because of how the media reported it—about the family integration of people with homosexual orientation, and I said: homosexual people have a right be a part of a family, people with homosexual orientation have a right to be in a family and the parents have the right to recognize this son as homosexual, this daughter as homosexual. Nobody should be thrown out or be miserable because of it.
Another thing—I said—when we see some sign in children that are growing, and then you send them… I should have said to a ‘professional’, but I said ‘psychiatrist’. I wanted to say a professional, because sometimes there are signs in adolescence or pre-adolescence where they don’t know if it is a homosexual tendency or if the thymus gland atrophied with time—I don’t know, a thousand things, no? So, a professional. The headline of the newspaper: ‘The Pope sends homosexuals to the psychiatrist’. It is not true! They asked me a question and I repeated again: ‘They are sons of God, they have a right to a family, and so forth’. Another thing is… and I explained: I was wrong in using that word, but wanted to say this: ‘When you notice something str’… “Ah, it’s strange…”. No, it’s not strange. It’s something out of the ordinary. In other words, they took a small word to nullify the context. There, what I said was: ‘they have a right to a family’. And that does not mean approving homosexual acts, not in the least.”
continued
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
And of course Jesus was vastly more misunderstood than Pope Francis ever has been: accused of being demon-possessed and out of His mind, and murdered . . .
*
The Bible and orthodox Catholic doctrine and Jesus still need apologists to defend them against nonsense and misinterpretation every day. And they are inspired and infallible and perfect. So this is about as surprising as the sun coming up.
Related Reading
Lawler vs. Pope Francis #2: Homosexuality & “Judging” [Dave Armstrong, 1-2-18]
Pope Francis on Homosexual Unions (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-21-13)
7 things you need to know about what Pope Francis said about gays (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 7-29-13)
Pope Francis’s new letter to homosexual Catholics (9 things to know and share) (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 10-11-13)
What did Pope Francis say about the children of homosexual couples? 8 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 1-5-14)
Pope Francis on Apologizing to Gays (And More): 6 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-28-16)
On the Pope’s Remarks about Homosexuality (Scott P. Richert, Crisis, 8-1-13)
What Did the Pope Really Say about Gays in the Priesthood? (Fr. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., Crisis, 8-5-13)
Report: Pope Excommunicates Priest for Supporting Gay Marriage, Female Priest (Dr. Susan Berry, Breitbart, 9-24-13)
Judge Not (Tim Staples, Catholic Answers, 2-14-14) [Same-sex couples and homosexuality]
Is Pope Francis Duping Liberals on Marriage? (Paul Kengor, American Spectator, 11-21-14)
Pope Francis Shocks Liberals on Same-Sex “Marriage” (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 1-23-15)
Pope Affirms Traditional Marriage (Bill Donohue, Newsmax, 4-8-16)
Not heretical: Pope Francis’ approval of the Argentine bishops’ policy on invalid marriages (Dr. Jeff Mirus, Catholic Culture, 9-15-16)
Pope Francis explains why he celebrated the airborne marriage of two flight attendants [+ Facebook discussion] (Nicole Winfield, America, 1-22-18)
Pope Francis’s Words on Civil Unions Distorted by Editing (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-22-20)
Has Pope Francis changed Church teaching on same-sex civil unions? (Dawn Eden Goldstein & Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
*
The Bible and orthodox Catholic doctrine and Jesus still need apologists to defend them against nonsense and misinterpretation every day. And they are inspired and infallible and perfect. So this is about as surprising as the sun coming up.
Related Reading
Lawler vs. Pope Francis #2: Homosexuality & “Judging” [Dave Armstrong, 1-2-18]
Pope Francis on Homosexual Unions (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-21-13)
7 things you need to know about what Pope Francis said about gays (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 7-29-13)
Pope Francis’s new letter to homosexual Catholics (9 things to know and share) (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 10-11-13)
What did Pope Francis say about the children of homosexual couples? 8 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 1-5-14)
Pope Francis on Apologizing to Gays (And More): 6 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-28-16)
On the Pope’s Remarks about Homosexuality (Scott P. Richert, Crisis, 8-1-13)
What Did the Pope Really Say about Gays in the Priesthood? (Fr. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., Crisis, 8-5-13)
Report: Pope Excommunicates Priest for Supporting Gay Marriage, Female Priest (Dr. Susan Berry, Breitbart, 9-24-13)
Judge Not (Tim Staples, Catholic Answers, 2-14-14) [Same-sex couples and homosexuality]
Is Pope Francis Duping Liberals on Marriage? (Paul Kengor, American Spectator, 11-21-14)
Pope Francis Shocks Liberals on Same-Sex “Marriage” (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 1-23-15)
Pope Affirms Traditional Marriage (Bill Donohue, Newsmax, 4-8-16)
Not heretical: Pope Francis’ approval of the Argentine bishops’ policy on invalid marriages (Dr. Jeff Mirus, Catholic Culture, 9-15-16)
Pope Francis explains why he celebrated the airborne marriage of two flight attendants [+ Facebook discussion] (Nicole Winfield, America, 1-22-18)
Pope Francis’s Words on Civil Unions Distorted by Editing (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-22-20)
Has Pope Francis changed Church teaching on same-sex civil unions? (Dawn Eden Goldstein & Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
This is obviously a prepared response with the assumption that there is anti-Catholic sentiment associated with any criticism of the Catholic Church or the Pope. That is convenient if you don't wish to discuss the substance of the complaint.
So, do you, who want to believe that all Catholic criticism is "Catholic bashing" think you are doing any less than "Protestant bashing," using your same standards?
If God wanted you to do this job, should you really be complaining about it? Quite frankly, I think you've taken this job upon yourself. I don't think it's of God at all. We should be defending the Christian faith--not men. Men make mistakes--unless, of course, you believe some people don't make mistakes?
No, you've said everything that I decried as wrong. And it *is* wrong! Nobody is misunderstanding Francis' statement--it's just wrong. But I already explained why. So I'm done.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
No suprise the avatar says happy helloween . wordliness cannot see truth . This is the most dangeours pope to sit the throne
in our lifetime . Even some catholics beg and plead other catholics to flee this thing .
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
lol...is it a signs of the times????
But as it is Pope Francis' statement means nothing to me.
As I have said before....the Catholics are great, love those in the pews. But I pay no attention to the Vatican. Bishops and Cardinals I could care less. It may come as a shock but you have to know the history of the Popes to fully appreciate the humor of all of this.
You think this is a big change? You might not know how big. There was a time that the Catholic Church burned them at the stake. They were good at slow roasting.
Is gay marriage a sin? It is really a no brainer. No room for debate. Gay marriage as with a Christian ceremony is hands down a sin, a slap in God's face, which would probably include the clergy that performed the ceremony. Categorically speaking, Gay marriage and or civil union would be considered habitual sin...they effectively take an oath to sin, for the rest of their lives. lol As far as the godless, I would rather them join in a civil marriage rather than they violate and drag our religion through the sewer pits.
Don't make the mistake in thinking that most Catholics agree with Pope Francis. I am not even sure if most of the local priests would agree with him. You will have to ask the Catholics on the forum.
But as it is Pope Francis' statement means nothing to me.
As I have said before....the Catholics are great, love those in the pews. But I pay no attention to the Vatican. Bishops and Cardinals I could care less. It may come as a shock but you have to know the history of the Popes to fully appreciate the humor of all of this.
You think this is a big change? You might not know how big. There was a time that the Catholic Church burned them at the stake. They were good at slow roasting.
Is gay marriage a sin? It is really a no brainer. No room for debate. Gay marriage as with a Christian ceremony is hands down a sin, a slap in God's face, which would probably include the clergy that performed the ceremony. Categorically speaking, Gay marriage and or civil union would be considered habitual sin...they effectively take an oath to sin, for the rest of their lives. lol As far as the godless, I would rather them join in a civil marriage rather than they violate and drag our religion through the sewer pits.
Don't make the mistake in thinking that most Catholics agree with Pope Francis. I am not even sure if most of the local priests would agree with him. You will have to ask the Catholics on the forum.
So I've often wondered if that means as an altar boy I should hit on married Popes? The Pope is married, I'm looking for an easy pickup, and I go for the married Pope. What if!... On College Campuses there are married Popes and sorority sisters and roll of the dice its the married people, that I needed more commitment from?
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
A media circus has no substance.
I retract. You may not be another angry anti-Catholic bigot, but you are a pope basher.
There are no mistakes in the Bible or Catholic doctrine. Mistaken people say otherwise. Mistakes people make as nothing to do with formal Magisterial pronouncements. This has been explained to you at least 5 times, you just don't get it.
I hope you're done reflecting the lies of a world that hates the pope for what he REALLY teaches.
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Ya, you can get Pope Francis to say there's homosexual marriages at this point . Just , hey, Pope Francis, come over here a minute, hold on, over here. Pope Francis just a minute. Pope Francis, marriage is homosexual I've heard? Ya, sure! YA!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
My view remains that the Catholic Pope is wrong to embrace, if only privately, gay unions as recognized by the State. It doesn't matter to me if it's the Pope or some guy on the street espousing this view--it's unbiblical. The Apostle Paul offended his fellow Jews when he opposed Judaism, all the while trying to win them to Christ. When they refused to bend, he dismissed them--not all, but those who were hard-hearted.
It's the same with Catholicism. There are some things I believe are wrong with Catholicism, and it may appear I'm "anti-Catholic" in stating my protests against it. But I'm only trying to bring reform to what I think are unbiblical positions. If there is no interest in these attempted "reforms," then I have no interest in pursuing the matter further with such people.
Christian unity is not based on unity at the cost of doctrine. Rather, it is our assertion of Christ as our Unifier that brings true spiritual unity. I hope we can all agree on that?
It's the same with Catholicism. There are some things I believe are wrong with Catholicism, and it may appear I'm "anti-Catholic" in stating my protests against it. But I'm only trying to bring reform to what I think are unbiblical positions. If there is no interest in these attempted "reforms," then I have no interest in pursuing the matter further with such people.
Christian unity is not based on unity at the cost of doctrine. Rather, it is our assertion of Christ as our Unifier that brings true spiritual unity. I hope we can all agree on that?
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Disagreeing with the Pope's position is not being a "pope basher." I am all for the Catholic Church because there are many genuine Christians within its organization. But I disagree with the structure, elevating the Pope to the place where he must not be questioned or the questioner is viewed as a "Pope-basher."
I don't like the structure in which there is a monarchial figure over the Catholic Church, but it is what it is. A good Pope can steer the Catholic Church in the right direction. But unless the prophets are judged by a body of elders, who will hold a prophet accountable? If the Pope is elevated as a mouth piece for God who must not be questioned, that goes against the Scriptures that say the prophets must be held accountable to a body of elders.
I'm really disinterested in talking with you, because you don't accept disagreement. That's called "unfair debate."
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