Calculating the Rapture? 7 Factors to Consider

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Spiritual Israelite

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No I don't. Your interpretation contradicts Revelation 20, unless you surgically alter the whole passage to fit your own bias. What Scripture do I have to change?
Where do I start? I guess at the beginning of the NT. Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, John 6:40/John 12:48, Acts 17:31, 1 Thess 4:14-5:9, 1 Cor 15:22-24, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 are only some of the passages that you need to change to fit your interpretation of Revelation 20. Those passages teach that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time, that all people will be judged at the same time, that all believers will be changed and meet the Lord "in the air" at the same time, and that all unbelievers on the earth will be killed when Christ returns. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts all of that.

The hour of resurrection started with Lazarus and has been ongoing since then, every time a soul is called out of this dead flesh, at physical death. The unbelievers will be called last after creation is handed back to God. Once again you contradict that Lazarus was called out of the grave.
Acts 26:23 very specifically says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. What does that mean? Obviously, Lazarus and few others had risen from the dead before that, so it can't mean that He was literally the first to rise from the dead. So, what else can it mean? It means that He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. What else can it mean? Lazarus died again later. He was not raised with an immortal body like Jesus was.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You are conflating the Trumpets and Vials. No, Jesus is not on earth during the vials. Jesus and the 144k are on mount Zion, during Satan's 42 months of AoD, and the 2 witnesses are the only redeemed on earth.

You are conflating the Trumpets and Vials. No, Jesus is not on earth during the vials. Jesus and the 144k are on mount Zion, during Satan's 42 months of AoD, and the 2 witnesses are the only redeemed on earth.

Well according to yoru eschatology he has to be.

You have teh 7th trumpet in #86 as being at the end of the 70th week of Daniel and Jesus is anointed then. How can teh 144K be in heaven as teh mark is not estrablished until the 42 months of the AC reign? It is not until around mid week that teh antichrist through th efalse prophet orders all to take the mark.
 

Ronald Nolette

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In Revelation 11:15 (at the 7th Trumpet) we are told God and his Christ begin to reign as the nations of the world become his. And verse 17 is correlated to Rev 19:6 making Revelation 19:6 the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. They are not different but the same. Having God reign in Rev 19 doesnt change the fact that it is Christ reign at the 7th Trumpet as shown in verse 17.

So You have Jesus returning before God pours the vials out! OK

So Jesus returns, God pours out teh 7 bowls, Jesus watchtes teh AC go genocide on Israel and the church and gather his armies at Armageddon and then decides to fight HIm. WWow that outdoes even the fanciful Watchtower fable of the end.
 

Ronald Nolette

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This is not found in the bible. It is made up.

Wrong!

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

13: 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

These are both of the same construct in Greek (the verbs) perfect passive particple. So what happened to the lamb, happened to the beast. Now if you believe Jesus didn't really die then OK. but if Jesus died, the Antichrist died and had a counterfeit resurrection- once again following his pattern of being another Christ.

Legions of people have recovered from severe wounds. But only Jesus was murdered and rose- now as God is sending deception upon the world

2 Thessalonians 2:10-13
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...

He allows teh false Christ to rise from the dead.
 

ewq1938

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Wrong!

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

13: 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

These are both of the same construct in Greek (the verbs) perfect passive particple.

Barnes:
Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads, as it were wounded to death - The phrase “wounded to death” means properly that it received a mortal wound, that is, the wound would have been mortal if it had not been healed. A blow was struck that would be naturally fatal, but there was something that prevented the fatal result.


So what happened to the lamb, happened to the beast.

Nope. The beast has a wound ON ONE OF THE MOUNTAIN HEADS that would have been deadly but it heals. This is not talking about a person and it's not talking about a death happening. The lamb looked like it had been slain, no healing mentioned because the lamb did in fact die from it's wounds.





the Antichrist died and had a counterfeit resurrection

The passage is not talking about the AC at all, and nothing died and resurrected either.



He allows teh false Christ to rise from the dead.

No, that doesn't happen and is not written at all.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Barnes:
Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads, as it were wounded to death - The phrase “wounded to death” means properly that it received a mortal wound, that is, the wound would have been mortal if it had not been healed. A blow was struck that would be naturally fatal, but there was something that prevented the fatal result.




Nope. The beast has a wound ON ONE OF THE MOUNTAIN HEADS that would have been deadly but it heals. This is not talking about a person and it's not talking about a death happening. The lamb looked like it had been slain, no healing mentioned because the lamb did in fact die from it's wounds.

Well you need to read Scripture a little more carefully!

For the beast out of the sea is the antichrist.


The passage is not talking about the AC at all, and nothing died and resurrected either.





No, that doesn't happen and is not written at all.

Well if it is not talking abo9ut a death- then Jesus didn't die either. If you read words as written you cannot get around that simple fact.

Rev. 13 certainly calls him a man!

And then in REv. 19 Jesus cast the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. I didn't know govts. are alive!
 

ewq1938

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Well if it is not talking abo9ut a death- then Jesus didn't die either.


Wrong. Rev 13 has no death and it involves a mountain not a person.

Rev. 13 certainly calls him a man!

The only man is the second beast.



And then in REv. 19 Jesus cast the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. I didn't know govts. are alive!

Why don't you know that? You should. Aren't they alive in Daniel?


Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
 
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No Pre-TB

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So Jesus returns, God pours out teh 7 bowls, Jesus watchtes teh AC go genocide on Israel and the church and gather his armies at Armageddon and then decides to fight HIm. WWow that outdoes even the fanciful Watchtower fable of the end.
Yes Ronald. Christ returns, to his Kingdom and removes OUT of his Kingdom the beast of the sea, the false prophet and Satan. As far as Armageddon goes, that's detailed in the bowls. I'm not sure I understand your trope Ronald. I am not a Jehovah Witness. Really, I am a born again Christian and I have a zeal for our Lord; and though we may have differences Ronald, I believe you do too. But please do not compare me to Jehovah Witness.

Ronald, what type of Church do you attend? Im asking to understand what youre taught. What your familiar with. It sounds like Pre-TB dispensational, but Id rather inquire then guess.
 

No Pre-TB

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Rev. 13 certainly calls him a man!
Ronald, there are many theories out there on this and obviously, you know they are not all right. There has been a great mistake made by churches in that some things taught from prophecy are really mistakes. Churches have really done a poor job at prophecy in general. Its not a subject Pastors or Deacons really study thoroughly. And all the ones I am familiar with in my lifetime have used either someone elses notes or biased commentary such as all the same authors for only Pre-TB or all the same authors for only Mid trib etc. Instead, they ought to look with an open eye at all possibilities and once they have knowledge of the differences, study it themselves without preconceived notions.

Most people do not realize that the beast of the sea is the kingdom. There is plenty of scripture to support this my friend. From their lives being prolonged as EWQ showed you till Daniel 7 explaining what the Beast of the sea is versus what the beast of the earth is. Please do your own study on the 2. Look at scripture objectively and see if mankind ever rises from the sea or if they rise from the earth. Look at what does rise from the sea or abyss. Understand when you are researching that Rev 13 has 2 separations. Rev 13:1-4 is the beast of the sea; Rev 13:5-7 is the mouthpiece of the Kingdom (beast of the sea). He is later identified as the False Prophet which rises from the earth, because men rise from the earth (1 Corinthians 15:48) and Daniel 7:17 prove it. In opposition to this, kingdoms rise from the seas as shown in Daniel 7:23 and Daniel 7:3-6

You may think I am speaking some odd eschatology, but If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't continue to talk to you about it. Don't believe me? Look up what I am saying and dig in for yourself. Pray about it, look at various commentaries from different perspectives ie. Mid trib, Pre-TB, Post Tb, Pre wrath etc
 

Ronald D Milam

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The rapture isn’t imminent. The resurrection of the dead precedes it.
They happen at the exact same time, you do understand how long a Blink of an Eye is right? Paul was simply trying to relieve them of their fears that their loved ones would not make heaven when they were raptured, so he gives the old, they are raised first (WINK WINK) a blink of an eye before the living, which means we are all raised at the exact same time. Paul's job as a minister was to comfort them, to let them know their loved ones would not be forsaken, so he put a little extra jam on the bread so to speak. If me and my wife walk in a grocery store hand and hand and my foot enters first, did we come in together, or did I enter first? SMILE.

Has the man of sin been revealed yet? No. Then it isn’t imminent

The Departure of the Church and the Man of Sin both happen/show up BEFORE the DOTL, that is what the verses actually say, so in essence the Rapture could be pre Wrath or Pre Trib by that verse and you do not get its saying that BOTH the Anti-Christ shows up and the Church Departs before the DOTL comes. That is why Paul tells them not to fear, they can not be in God's Wrath, the Church departs before the DOTL, even the Anti-Christ shows up before the DOTL. Nowhere does it say when the Church departs in that verse in reality. But the Rapture is indeed pre trib. Its not even a hard understanding tbh. In the last days we get doctrines put firth by devils to deceive, so why should we be surprised that 40-50 percent of believers have joined the false understanding which came from the RCC ?
 
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Timtofly

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Where do I start? I guess at the beginning of the NT. Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, John 6:40/John 12:48, Acts 17:31, 1 Thess 4:14-5:9, 1 Cor 15:22-24, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 are only some of the passages that you need to change to fit your interpretation of Revelation 20. Those passages teach that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time, that all people will be judged at the same time, that all believers will be changed and meet the Lord "in the air" at the same time, and that all unbelievers on the earth will be killed when Christ returns. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts all of that.

Acts 26:23 very specifically says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. What does that mean? Obviously, Lazarus and few others had risen from the dead before that, so it can't mean that He was literally the first to rise from the dead. So, what else can it mean? It means that He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. What else can it mean? Lazarus died again later. He was not raised with an immortal body like Jesus was.
Bodily immortality is a made up term. Chapter and verse.

Just posting numbers in a post does not mean anything. Type the verse out that I have to change.

You have no proof Lazarus died later. That is a guess. He could have ascended with the OT saints just as easily, as he was resurrected, not just resuscitated. He met his appointment of death. You condemning him to die again is meaningless.

You can start by actually putting the words of a verse in a post I have to change.
 
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Timtofly

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Well according to yoru eschatology he has to be.

You have teh 7th trumpet in #86 as being at the end of the 70th week of Daniel and Jesus is anointed then. How can teh 144K be in heaven as teh mark is not estrablished until the 42 months of the AC reign? It is not until around mid week that teh antichrist through th efalse prophet orders all to take the mark.
The 7th Trumpet does not stop, just because 42 months are inserted into the week.

Jesus returns from Mount Zion in Revelation 19 to fight at Armageddon. The 144k, the sheep, and the wheat come back with Jesus to reign on the earth. Those beheaded are resurrected, and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

The same point in time Satan is bound in the pit. Come Monday morning the Millennium is in full swing. Isaiah 65 the new reality.
 

No Pre-TB

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They happen at the exact same time, you do understand how long a Blink of an Eye is right?
No, you’re saying that. Scripture says the dead rises first. The dead and the living do not rise together. You can try to spin it, but going to the clouds isn’t the blink of an eye. The change to immortality is the blink of an eye. The living go AFTER the dead and how much time is in between? We arnt told and I will not guess it.


The Departure of the Church and the Man of Sin both happen/show up BEFORE the DOTL,
Mr Milan, we are not resurrected till after the heavens are no more per Job. That defeats a Pre-TB timeline without me posting numerous other reasons the Pre-TB theory is not workable. Secondly, Christ doesn’t leave heaven till the restoration of all things. That doesn’t work in a prewrath theory. If you know anything about the trumpets, understand by reading them, it’s unmaking the creation account. Genesis creates trees and grass, Revelation destroys them. Genesis creates life in the sea and rivers; Revelation destroys life in both when turned to blood. All things are removed to leave what cannot be shaken behind.

I agree with you that there is great spiritual darkness. And we need to be watchful and on guard. If you want numerous reasons why Pre-TB is not a solid working theory, I’ll happily present it. But don’t ask if you don’t care, ask if you’re curious and actually searching for truth. As you said, there’s false things everywhere. It can even be in ones church!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Wrong. Rev 13 has no death and it involves a mountain not a person.



The only man is the second beast.





Why don't you know that? You should. Aren't they alive in Daniel?


Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The beast is the eleventh horn! and the ten horns are ten kings!

Teh beast of Rev. 13 is a man. Even His number declares He is a man.

Think for a minute!

Revelation 13
King James Version

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Common rules of God created grammar shows that what describes the second beast, describes the first! So whatever the second is, the first is also.

Does a govt. speak great things or is it men.

do govts. work miracles or doo men and spirit beings.

Do you think Satan would give his power to an ephemereal thing like a govt, or a man. Daniel calls Him a man
Jesus calls him a man
Paul calls him a maan
John calls him a man.
Rev. 13 leaves no doubt it is a man.
it is a personal and not impersonal pronoun used. God knows how to choose pronouns.

YOu sssimply cannot say the second beast is aa man and teh first beast is not! It just is so wrong grammatically and God is a master grammatician.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Yes Ronald. Christ returns, to his Kingdom and removes OUT of his Kingdom the beast of the sea, the false prophet and Satan. As far as Armageddon goes, that's detailed in the bowls. I'm not sure I understand your trope Ronald. I am not a Jehovah Witness. Really, I am a born again Christian and I have a zeal for our Lord; and though we may have differences Ronald, I believe you do too. But please do not compare me to Jehovah Witness.

Ronald, what type of Church do you attend? Im asking to understand what youre taught. What your familiar with. It sounds like Pre-TB dispensational, but Id rather inquire then guess.

Well I goo to an independent Baptist Church.

but my study inn pre-trib dispensationalsim, was done studying under Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum and His three major texts that deal with eschatology.

"Footsteps of the Messiah"
"Israelology, the missing Link in systematic Theology"
"Life of the Messiah from a Hebrew perspective". (four volumes)

Also having taught Eschatology for over 35 years now I have read texts from other dispensational perspectives.

"Things to come" by JD Pentecost

Even late 19th and early 20th century studies by C. Larkin ( very bizaare in some areas)

I also have studied eschatology from a covenantal theology perspective and dozens of paperbacks like Lindsay and Wilkerson and even the cults like th eJW's.

If I compare you to teh JW's, it is only because you have so reinterpreted the Word of God, so that what is written is very different from what you say- that is so much like many cults in and out of Christendom
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ronald, there are many theories out there on this and obviously, you know they are not all right. There has been a great mistake made by churches in that some things taught from prophecy are really mistakes. Churches have really done a poor job at prophecy in general. Its not a subject Pastors or Deacons really study thoroughly. And all the ones I am familiar with in my lifetime have used either someone elses notes or biased commentary such as all the same authors for only Pre-TB or all the same authors for only Mid trib etc. Instead, they ought to look with an open eye at all possibilities and once they have knowledge of the differences, study it themselves without preconceived notions.

Most people do not realize that the beast of the sea is the kingdom. There is plenty of scripture to support this my friend. From their lives being prolonged as EWQ showed you till Daniel 7 explaining what the Beast of the sea is versus what the beast of the earth is. Please do your own study on the 2. Look at scripture objectively and see if mankind ever rises from the sea or if they rise from the earth. Look at what does rise from the sea or abyss. Understand when you are researching that Rev 13 has 2 separations. Rev 13:1-4 is the beast of the sea; Rev 13:5-7 is the mouthpiece of the Kingdom (beast of the sea). He is later identified as the False Prophet which rises from the earth, because men rise from the earth (1 Corinthians 15:48) and Daniel 7:17 prove it. In opposition to this, kingdoms rise from the seas as shown in Daniel 7:23 and Daniel 7:3-6

You may think I am speaking some odd eschatology, but If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't continue to talk to you about it. Don't believe me? Look up what I am saying and dig in for yourself. Pray about it, look at various commentaries from different perspectives ie. Mid trib, Pre-TB, Post Tb, Pre wrath etc

I am sure if we compare various perspectives on Eschatology studied, I far outpace you. I have taught it and studied it for over 35 years.

I understand SCripture (including symbolistic passages) using the literal/historical/grammatical hermeneutic.

I also understand there is much symbolic language in Scripture, but I also know that Scripture defines its own symbols and is consistent throughout!

The sea best is teh eighth who is of the seven and he is the eleventh horn which subdues three, also is thee man of lawlessness, the prince of the people that shall come, the antichrist, the abomination who makes desolate, the man who sits in the temple of god declaring he is god. among many other titles.

If the second beast is a man the fiirst beast is also.

When sea is used symbolically it always means gentiles. Like in Is. 17:12-14 Also in Matt. 24 for it follows distress of nations (seas roaring like in Psalm 2)

A literal dispensational hermeneutic requires no juggling time frames, reinterpreting words and the like. And it leads people to a pre trib rapture and a post trib return of Jesus and a trib lasting 7 years.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The 7th Trumpet does not stop, just because 42 months are inserted into the week.

Jesus returns from Mount Zion in Revelation 19 to fight at Armageddon. The 144k, the sheep, and the wheat come back with Jesus to reign on the earth. Those beheaded are resurrected, and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

The same point in time Satan is bound in the pit. Come Monday morning the Millennium is in full swing. Isaiah 65 the new reality.

Yes and that is not the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

The church stays in heaven for that is where Jesus promised we would be!

According to Scripture it does stop sounding. Check the verbs in Greek and understand.
 

No Pre-TB

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If I compare you to teh JW's, it is only because you have so reinterpreted the Word of God, so that what is written is very different from what you say- that is so much like many cults in and out of Christendom
Ronald, I am not reinterpreting anything. I’m taking into account what is written, looking into the context, the Greek and parallel scriptures to understand and prayer. I also attend a church that styles itself as a “Fundamental Bible Believing Baptist Church”, though I agree on most things in my church (98%?), eschatology is one I do not.


I am sure if we compare various perspectives on Eschatology studied, I far outpace you. I have taught it and studied it for over 35 years.
I wasn’t aware we were racing against each other :)
I’m not a spring chicken either Ronald.


If the second beast is a man the fiirst beast is also
Can you please show me scripturally where men rise from the sea? Because I’ve already showed you men rise from the earth and kingdoms from the sea.


A literal dispensational hermeneutic requires no juggling time frames, reinterpreting words and the like. And it leads people to a pre trib rapture and a post trib return of Jesus and a trib lasting 7 years.
Ronald, if you truly believe that, you’ll have no problem explaining how my questions fit into a sound Pre-TB theory that you advocate for. I’ll just post 1. If you can answer it, I’ll post a second. No need to post everything with a wall of text.

First question, I’ve asked this before without a response:
Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

How does a resurrection of the dead and a rapture happen in Rev 4:1, according to Pre-TB, if the Heavens haven’t been removed and the first seal hasn’t been opened yet?

A commentary by Benson says,
That is, until the time of the general resurrection and restitution of all things, when these visible heavens shall pass away, and be no more, at least in the same form in which they are now.

I await your response.
Edit: You can view thru 2 Peter 3:7
 
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