Calculating the Rapture? 7 Factors to Consider

[Spiritual Israelite]

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

You can verify in the link above that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses!

What a ridiculous post. What happens first, as it relates to unbelievers, after He is revealed from heaven, is Him taking vengeance on living unbelievers by physically destroying them. That is clearly taught in other passages of scripture as well. Then after that they will be punished with everlasting destruction by being cast into the lake of fire. This scenario is depicted in Revelation 20:9-15.

So, there's your future tense. In no way, shape or form is Paul saying there that them being punished with everlasting destruction happens long after He is first revealed from heaven and takes vengeance on those on earth who don't know God and reject the gospel. That is a completely biased, ridiculous and nonsensical interpretation of that passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

”It’s a trap!”
If I say no, you’ll say I’m wrong and not rightly dividing. If I say yes, you’ll say I’m wrong and not rightly dividing. If I say it right, you’ll rephrase or ask another question. It’s impossible to win, when people want to see you lose because their right and your wrong. so I’ll pass

So, you'd rather just "pass" than deal honestly and objectively with the holes I pointed out in your view. I see.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are 100% correct! To you, I’m not interpreting it correctly. To some others, I am 100% interpreting it correctly.

Hmm, are they weeding the fathers kingdom or the son of man’s kingdom. Hmmm

The Son of Man's kingdom, obviously. Why do you ask?

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Do you believe that Jesus will come at the end of the age (Matthew 24:3)? If so, then that is when what is described in this passage will happen. The reason that it talks about the righteous shining "like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" after the angels "weed out of" Christ's kingdom "everything that causes sin and all who do evil", is because Jesus will have handed over the kingdom to the Father at that point, as Paul wrote about here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pre-mill don't deny this. What we point out is the fact these people are not the dead resurrected out of sheol and Death.

Don't try to speak for all Premills since many of them disagree with a lot of what you believe. They agree with you on the timing of the thousand years in relation to Christ's return and not much else.

Jesus and the angels are on the earth after fire has destroyed all the works of man.

Where does it say that?

They are separating the living into two groups. Those headed for death, and those headed for eternal life. There is literally no resurrection other than the sheep and wheat are resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Jesus said that unbelievers will be resurrected also. Your problem is that you don't take all scripture into account so you end up interpreting passages like this in a way that contradicts other scripture.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Notice that Jesus said a time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected. The ones "who have done what is good" and "rise to live" are the same as the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 (the sheep will include those who are alive at the time Christ returns as well). The ones "who have done what is evil" and "rise to be condemned" are the goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

You keep avoiding Paul's fine print that states the church is removed when Jesus is on His way to the earth.

Where does Paul say anything about Jesus coming to the earth?

The sheep and wheat are not the church as they are separated after Jesus arrives.

Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about something that happens after He descends from heaven, so I don't know what you're talking about here. Seems like you are trying to go to any length to deny the obvious, which is that all people from all-time will be separated into two groups when Jesus returns and those whose names are in the book of life will inherit the eternal kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The sheep and wheat reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years. That is the Day of the Lord. The church is in Paradise during the Day of the Lord.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. You have to ignore or twist many scriptures in order to come to this conclusion, including Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Timtofly]

If you look a bit closer, you will find that heaven and earth pass away at the Lords coming.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.



So how can his throne be on the earth?
This is the final judgment when the dead are thrown into the fire,


Matt 25
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”



Here is this judgment according to Revelation

11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away]. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades (the realm of the dead) surrendered the dead who were in them; and they were judged and sentenced, every one according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades [the realm of the dead] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God]. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

They pass away when Jesus hands them back to God. Jesus is still perfecting creation, not destroying creation. You are trying to contradict the point that Jesus sits on His throne at the Second Coming. I am not. Heaven and earth will pass away, but not at the point of the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

So Maybe Jesus blows- no biggie- straining at gnats.

It is Gabriel who gave the message to Daniel. It was Gabriel who announced the first coming. Looks like a pattern where Gabriel will be the 7th Trumpet, but announces the Second Coming at the 6th Seal as well.

The 7th Trumpet brings an end to Gabriel's 70th week as he gave the message to Daniel.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus said that unbelievers will be resurrected also. Your problem is that you don't take all scripture into account so you end up interpreting passages like this in a way that contradicts other scripture.

No I don't. Your interpretation contradicts Revelation 20, unless you surgically alter the whole passage to fit your own bias. What Scripture do I have to change?

The hour of resurrection started with Lazarus and has been ongoing since then, every time a soul is called out of this dead flesh, at physical death. The unbelievers will be called last after creation is handed back to God. Once again you contradict that Lazarus was called out of the grave.

 

[No Pre-TB]

So, you'd rather just "pass" than deal honestly and objectively with the holes I pointed out in your view. I see.

Id rather not argue a pointless argument where neither you or I will move. Honesty and objectivity are used and still one calls the other false. I don’t have time for another topic. I’m already replying to enough.
Holes? Nope. Holes only exist to one that cannot understand the others view. When one understands, it becomes clear.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The Son of Man's kingdom, obviously.

Thank you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Eh? Revelation 19 is future.
1. Verse 6 is the 7th trumpet.
2. verse 8 is the Bride allowed to finally wear white linen after the 7th Trumpet is blown.
The bride is symbolized as the New Jerusalem. Look at verse 10 and again in Rev 22:8-9 . He is explaining it from different angles. Once Christ comes back at the 7th Trumpet, we are judged, we are married, we are resurrected and enter New heavens and a new earth in his Millennial kingdom.

Eh? They don't.

Yes, that is true. No argument there. But what you are not saying is the place he goes to prepare for us is the New heavens and new Earth, New Jerusalem. Not Heaven. per:
1. Hebrews 11:13-14
2. John 14:2
3. Revelation 21:2
4. Matthew 25:34
5. Hebrews 12:28
6. Hebrews 11:10
7. Hebrews 12:22
8. John 14:3
9. Hebrews 13:14
10, 1 Peter 1:17, 2:11
11. Psalms 39:12

A Kingdom that cannot be removed, whose builder and maker is God, eternal in the heavens, a city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to EARTH, prepared for us. Christ will come down and reign in the New Jerusalem and where he is, we will be also.

So you have the seventh trumpet blowing after the seven bowls are poured out! Unfeasible but interesting.

there is no trumpet in verse 6 at all.

But we do have a 7th trumpet blowing in 11:15

New Jerusalem is in heaven. That is just a semantical argument.
Yes heaven (New Jerusalem) comes down to earth and the triune god dwells with man.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

These are the passages I referenced, so I assume you're talking about these:

1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You're telling me that Paul's reference to the day of the Lord that is coming as a thief in the night and its accompanying "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" is different from Peter's reference to the day of the Lord that is coming as a thief in the night and it's accompanying global fiery destruction from which no one could escape?

Absolutely!

Mankind will know when God dissolves the Universe! It is when time ends and eternity "begins". The start of Gods judgments on earth will not be known

There are three issues that have to be navigated here.

day-"hemera" can mean a 24 hour day (or part there of), or a time frame.
day of the Lord almost exclusively refers to the 7oth week of Danile, but it can refer to the end of time. Context tells us or unless there is a modifying phrase.

Based on the massive OT passages describing the end times "Dayof the Lord and teh NT passages added, we know thesselonians refer to the onset of tribulation.

And the Peter passage, because it describes the dissolving of this present universe- we know is right before eternity "starts".

 

[No Pre-TB]

So you have the seventh trumpet blowing after the seven bowls are poured out!

No, the 7th trumpet precedes the bowls.

edit: If you’d like to talk about timelines, let me know. Perhaps that’s easier to understand one another.

there is no trumpet in verse 6 at all.

Youre right. How did I decide that? In verse 6, we’re told Christ begins to reign. In Revelation 11:15-18 were shown he begins to reign demonstrating Revelation 19:6 as John viewing the 7th Trumpet. There’s plenty of commentary on this and feel free to do cross reference in your Bible or online between the two.

New Jerusalem is in heaven. That is just a semantical argument.
Yes heaven (New Jerusalem) comes down to earth and the triune god dwells with man.

The point is, the paradise that is prepared for us will not be in Heaven, it'll be on the Earth in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is Gabriel who gave the message to Daniel. It was Gabriel who announced the first coming. Looks like a pattern where Gabriel will be the 7th Trumpet, but announces the Second Coming at the 6th Seal as well.

The 7th Trumpet brings an end to Gabriel's 70th week as he gave the message to Daniel.

No because teh bowls are poured out after teh seventh trumpet blows.

YOu are making an assumption that Gabriel blows the seventh trumpet. The bible merely says a n angel. Also the bible doesn't even say an angel says or does anything 9other than fall from heaven) at teh opening of the sixth seal.

So you have Jesus returning at teh sixth seal?

That means you hold that the trumpets and bowls happen while Jesus is here?

or are yopu on eof th ose who holds that the book of revelationis writtne crazily with past present and future all jumbled up and one needs special revelation to know which passage follows which.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No because teh bowls are poured out after teh seventh trumpet blows.

Youre making the mistake of taking the Ch.’s chronologically. How Does the beast rising in Ch. 13 kill the 2 witnesses in Ch 11? Remember, there were not Ch.s when written

YOu are making an assumption that Gabriel blows the seventh trumpet.

When did I say Gabriel? Huh?

So you have Jesus returning at teh sixth seal?

No, he returns after the 7th Trumpet is blown

That means you hold that the trumpets and bowls happen while Jesus is here?

No. The bowls happen in his kingdom, after he begins to reign.

Revelation is chronological but not sequential. I’ve pointed that out to you a few times in various posts. The trumpets precede the bowls and the seals precede the trumpets. But other information within the book fits into those categories. Ex. Ch 13, 14, 15, 17 etc

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, the 7th trumpet precedes the bowls.

edit: If you’d like to talk about timelines, let me know. Perhaps that’s easier to understand one another.


Youre right. How did I decide that? In verse 6, we’re told Christ begins to reign. In Revelation 11:15-18 were shown he begins to reign demonstrating Revelation 19:6 as John viewing the 7th Trumpet. There’s plenty of commentary on this and feel free to do cross reference in your Bible or online between the two.


The point is, the paradise that is prepared for us will not be in Heaven, it'll be on the Earth in the New Jerusalem.

Well let us be thankful for that.

If the verse 6 you are referring to is 19:6 that is incorrect, that is a praise to the Father for His reign.

Jesus has not begun His reign yet, though He is King, He is returning to earth to defeat teh false ruler (the counterfeit trinity) and sit on His throne and judge the nations.

11:15-18 is a simple announcement that Jesus has taken His authority, but has not started to reign. He has yet to return, unless you believe He returns while the final seven judgments take place from God and REv. 19 :11-21 are supposed to be in Rev. 11. and not after His wedding in heaven.

The verb in 11:15 "are become" is in the 2nd aorist, middle deponent indiciative 2rd person plural. this means it is an even t that is or is in process of taking place. Jesus took the authority due Him, and simply waited for the Father to finish the judgments before He returned to establish the authority that was His.

He actuall had gained that authority back after teh resurrection, but did not claim it until the time of the Father.

 

[Truth7t7]

Youre making the mistake of taking the Ch.’s chronologically. How Does the beast rising in Ch. 13 kill the 2 witnesses in Ch 11? Remember, there were not Ch.s when written


When did I say Gabriel? Huh?
No, he returns after the 7th Trumpet is blown
No. The bowls happen in his kingdom, after he begins to reign.

Revelation is chronological but not sequential. I’ve pointed that out to you a few times in various posts. The trumpets precede the bowls and the seals precede the trumpets. But other information within the book fits into those categories. Ex. Ch 13, 14, 15, 17 etc

I agree the book of Revelation isn't chronological, however the vials and trumps are parallel teachings

7th Vial & 7th Trump (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus has not begun His reign yet, though He is King, He is returning to earth to defeat teh false ruler (the counterfeit trinity) and sit on His throne and judge the nations.

11:15-18 is a simple announcement that Jesus has taken His authority, but has not started to reign. He has yet to return, unless you believe He returns while the final seven judgments take place from God and REv. 19 :11-21 are supposed to be in Rev. 11. and not after His wedding in heaven.

The verb in 11:15 "are become" is in the 2nd aorist, middle deponent indiciative 2rd person plural. this means it is an even t that is or is in process of taking place. Jesus took the authority due Him, and simply waited for the Father to finish the judgments before He returned to establish the authority that was His.

He actuall had gained that authority back after teh resurrection, but did not claim it until the time of the Father.

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!!!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When did I say Gabriel? Huh?

#86

No, he returns after the 7th Trumpet is blown

so He is here when the bowls are poured out according to you. And He allows the Antichrist to gather His armies and march them to the valley of Jezreel.

No. The bowls happen in his kingdom, after he begins to reign.

So according to you , Jesus has taken control of planet earth, set up His throne (for He has returns as in Mt. 25) and His Father is going to pour out all that destruction still?

Revelation is chronological but not sequential. I’ve pointed that out to you a few times in various posts. The trumpets precede the bowls and the seals precede the trumpets. But other information within the book fits into those categories. Ex. Ch 13, 14, 15, 17 etc

Well I agree the entire passage concerning Israel and the antichrist 11-14. 17-18 is unique for it is the angel explaining to Daniel th evision and how it plays out in time During the tribulation whereas 11-14 is a minor history of Israel and then the events of the mid point:

1. Antichrist killed and risen
2. Entering the Holy place
3. Israel fleeing to Bozrah
4. antichrist and genocide against Jews and Christians.

 

[Timtofly]

No because teh bowls are poured out after teh seventh trumpet blows.

YOu are making an assumption that Gabriel blows the seventh trumpet. The bible merely says a n angel. Also the bible doesn't even say an angel says or does anything 9other than fall from heaven) at teh opening of the sixth seal.

So you have Jesus returning at teh sixth seal?

That means you hold that the trumpets and bowls happen while Jesus is here?

or are yopu on eof th ose who holds that the book of revelationis writtne crazily with past present and future all jumbled up and one needs special revelation to know which passage follows which.

You are conflating the Trumpets and Vials. No, Jesus is not on earth during the vials. Jesus and the 144k are on mount Zion, during Satan's 42 months of AoD, and the 2 witnesses are the only redeemed on earth.

I don't need a special revelation. I am just pointing out what each chapter states. Man's imagination and theology has gotten the best of him, and you all move all the pieces around as if you all know exactly how they fit.

I point out that if Satan is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem, and Jesus is on mount Zion, that is not the same place and they are not co-reigning. Mount Zion may be on earth, or above earth. We are not told.

Jesus is here during the Trumpets. That is Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus is here during the Thunders. That is Matthew 13:24-43. The Seals deal with the church. The Trumpets deal with Israel. The Thunders deal with the nations themselves. Reverse order, as Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The first 2,000 years of Adam's punishment was given to the nations. The next 2,000 years was given to Abraham and the Hebrews, 1400 years for Israel. 600 years given to Ishmael. The last 2,000 years was given to the church.

Not sure why that would be considered anything that special. Just what we find in the OT and NT. When Joshua removed Jericho it was an 8 day event. When the Cross happened it was an 8 day event. It seems to me that the 7th Trumpet should also be an 8 day event. Even though a week is a set of 7 days. Revelation 10 states that in the days of the 7th Trumpet: 8 days, 7 days, or 1268 days. I think the 7th Trumpet starts sounding on a Sunday, and stops sounding on a Sunday. I have no proof, just comparing the week Jericho was given to Israel, and Christ was given as the Atonement on the Cross. The 7th Trumpet is the transition of the current age into the Millennium, the Day of the Lord. Since Gabriel gave the 70 weeks message to Daniel, and announced the birth of Christ, why not be holding the 7th Trumpet? The 7th Trumpet declares the end of the 70th week as well as the end of Adam's punishment of sin and death in the world.

 

[No Pre-TB]

If the verse 6 you are referring to is 19:6 that is incorrect, that is a praise to the Father for His reign.

Ronald, if I may, please humor me and look at this. Rev 19:6 says,

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

You make a good observation. This is not Christ but God, so it cannot be linked to Rev 11 when Christ begins to reign. But this verse actually represents Christ who is God and I will show you how.

Revelation 11:17
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

In Revelation 11:15 (at the 7th Trumpet) we are told God and his Christ begin to reign as the nations of the world become his. And verse 17 is correlated to Rev 19:6 making Revelation 19:6 the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. They are not different but the same. Having God reign in Rev 19 doesnt change the fact that it is Christ reign at the 7th Trumpet as shown in verse 17.

Jesus has not begun His reign yet, though He is King, He is returning to earth to defeat teh false ruler (the counterfeit trinity) and sit on His throne and judge the nations.

I agree that Jesus is not reigning yet. Multiple reasons why, which I will not post here to avoid a long drawn out Amil inquisition.

#86

I did not post anything on Gabriel and I do not see a post #86. There is not a specific name given to the arch angel at the 7th Trumpet, so I dont know who it will be. I don't make guesses as to who it will be either.
Edit: Perhaps that post is by someone I have on ignore?? But I did not post it.

so He is here when the bowls are poured out according to you. And He allows the Antichrist to gather His armies and march them to the valley of Jezreel.

Christ is here when the bowls are poured out and he is ruling in his kingdom because he must remove all workers of iniquity from his Kingdom. Matthew 13:41-42

So according to you , Jesus has taken control of planet earth, set up His throne (for He has returns as in Mt. 25) and His Father is going to pour out all that destruction still?

Jesus returns to become King on earth when the nations of the world are his. At that time, he will bring in the righteous into his kingdom and the wicked will be punished. He will not do it till he reigns as King. Matthew 25:34, Matthew 25:41 and Matthew 25:46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Christ will sit on the throne as King, at his 2nd advent at the 7th Trumpet, and his bride will go to everlasting life and the enemy will be punished in the bowls of wrath.

If you ever looked at history Ronald, does the leader of a people destroy his enemies before he is crowned and before he returns to his land? Or does he destroy his enemies when he returns and is King? He doesn't destroy them until returned and he claims the Kingdom for his own with his people. Then he destroys the wicked out of it.

If there are remaining questions Ronald, I will do my best to reply. If you're still confused on something I said, let me know and I'll look into it.