Calling all Law Keepers.

[bbyrd009]

How does one ever move beyond what they already have if they never hear about what they do not have? Who is to tell it? Does God never put good words in the mouths of people to speak to others? Or do people only speak what comes from their own evil hearts?

ha well, excellent point, we of course might learn from an evil example as well as from a good, so my answer there was inadequate, yes. I would amend it to say that i would listen to a message about overcoming from someone who openly admitted that they had not overcome yet, if that person even existed, and i grant that i have heard several 'overcoming' sermons by pastors who looking back had obviously not overcome--the "Word of Faith" guy from Texas that is now hawking prayer cloths on the religious channels comes to mind, he was an early pastor of mine. Can't think of his name now, his then-wife's name was Marty--but liked to advertise that they had, and all of these worked together for good, i guess, even if Marty's husband would cringe at my perception of his role in the matter.

but my best lessons in overcoming...have not come from pastors, let's put it that way. They came from overcomers, who are everywhere. Mostly the marginalized, in my case. Of course my definition of "overcome" changed along the way, from the world's definition that pastors seem to mostly use, like "overcoming" an opposing team or whatever, competition, to...what it is now, which many would define as "defeat" prolly lol.

 

[ScottA]

Just want to say that the parable of the wheat and the tares has nothing to do with why Jesus spoke in parables.

You asked:

3. You mean God doesn't want everyone to understand Him??
How about John 3:16?

...So, my mention of the wheat and the tares was to explain why God has confounded all language - not that He does not want all who are His to understand Him, but rather that the tares do not understand Him. This is why "all things come in parables" and why "the scriptures must be discerned spiritually."

 

[bbyrd009]

How does one ever move beyond what they already have if they never hear about what they do not have? Who is to tell it?

so my reply herenow would be "do what Jesus told the people in your exact same position to do, that is clearly recorded. And when you get to that new town, and you are staying in one place and eating what they feed you, and you are completely freaking out or something, shoot me a pm then and maybe i can help."

because if the only alt is that you are trying to learn this concept in a church? Aren't they busy re-laying the foundation, over and over? Is the word "sin" ever mentioned there? Then there you go. You are among people learning the foundation, and you are asking for like roof-building instructions, imo. (common "you" there of course A, "one.")

So, "who is to tell it?" For me, someone "outside the camp." But it becomes a Q of "who will you listen to?" as much as "who will tell it."

for instance i do not expect NBR to tell me that Bitcoin is a good investment, and that several banks were observed to buy the recent dip, or that the $ has crashed over 99% already, and falling. I expect them to tell me that it is a bad investment, very volatile, all with a straight face, see. ps, i'd go with Monero now, for the moment.

 

[bbyrd009]

Or do people only speak what comes from their own evil hearts?

well, obviously ppl usually speak from the heart whether they are aware of it or not, unless they are being intentionally deceptive, which is just another way to speak from the heart i guess, so i would omit "evil" there as that implies judgement, and i recognize now that...Marty's husband, arg, was just preaching what he believed, and after all i went to a Prosperity preacher, what was i supposed to expect lol. Tilton, that was the guy. Back when i still thought names were coincidences, lol

 

[GodsGrace]

You asked:
...So, my mention of the wheat and the tares was to explain why God has confounded all language - not that He does not want all who are His to understand Him, but rather that the tares do not understand Him. This is why "all things come in parables" and why "the scriptures must be discerned spiritually."

No Scott,
My original question to you was why Jesus spoke in parables.
You have not given an answer and instead quoted the parable of the wheat and the tares. Which has NOTHING to do with why Jesus spoke in parables.

So now your point is that God does not want everyone to understand Him, OR that the tares can't understand him.

You've confused the issue because you never answered the original question.

Plus, you're obsessed with this idea of language being confounded by God. Is not language made so that we could understand each other?
Why would God NOT want us to understand each other?

You accept everything in the Old Testament so literally?
Everything in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
Or only what makes sense to you?

 

[amadeus]

... I would amend it to say that i would listen to a message about overcoming from someone who openly admitted that they had not overcome yet, if that person even existed, and i grant that i have heard several 'overcoming' sermons by pastors who looking back had obviously not overcome--

but my best lessons in overcoming...have not come from pastors, let's put it that way. They came from overcomers, who are everywhere. Mostly the marginalized, in my case. Of course my definition of "overcome" changed along the way, from the world's definition that pastors seem to mostly use, like "overcoming" an opposing team or whatever, competition, to...what it is now, which many would define as "defeat" prolly lol.

In a real sense that, I believe, lines up with scripture. Every one who believes in God and expresses it positively in even a measure has already overcome, but this doesn't mean there is no more that still needs to be overcome, does it?

How can anyone get to the point in overcoming where he will receive the rewards of these verses?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev 2:11

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Rev 2:26

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev 3:5

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rec 3:21

Must we be such an overcomer before our time here in this veil of flesh subject to temptation is finished? What becomes of us if we are not?

 

[bbyrd009]

A lot of preachers have missed the mark because they were not called by God in the first place. Some preachers have missed the mark because having been called by God, they failed to follow Him as they moved in their calling.

i'm not sure how an aspiring pastor could even become one, without the world's help now. "Pastor" implies "church," and imo the model breaks right there, even if it serves those without any foundation. So it can imply "service" too, but as a satellite, not a primary thing iow. Running a "church" is running a business, iow.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" Rom 10:14-15

amen! unfortunately this is as much a contrast to our pastors today as it is a comparison. The feet are mentioned there for a reason, right, that does not even apply to our concept of "pastor" today imo. Unless one thinks "beautiful are the feet" means "dancing" or something, lol. And i do not mean to denigrate pastors here ok, not at all. They are called into immediate conflicts of interest before they can even "start pastoring," at least from their pov at that time, and i surely would have done just what they did had i gone into that field at that stage of my walk.

Even "pastor" to me means something different now, my current "pastor" does not even know that he is my pastor, and would even object to the term being applied to him, i bet. A...oh, like a Jose' Mujica type guy, although i have had some real fireballs in the past lol, didn't even get why i was there at the time.

 

[bbyrd009]

so my reply herenow would be "do what Jesus told the people in your exact same position to do, that is clearly recorded. And when you get to that new town, and you are staying in one place and eating what they feed you, and you are completely freaking out or something, shoot me a pm then and maybe i can help."

and i guess you don't have to do this literally, either, there are spiritual analogues, but they are easier to bail out of.

 

[bbyrd009]

Instead of watching and warning according to God's Word, too many preachers and teachers and other ministers work for themselves and say what people want to hear so long as the people seem content to keep the watchman on the job with full pay.

man, if everyone in the market is happy, then imo the market is functioning exactly like it is supposed to, and i hope the best for them. Personally i do not "go to the market on Sabbath," but i do not condemn my neighbor, who does. They all have the same Manual i do, and the "market" refs are in theirs, same as mine.

 

[amadeus]

so my reply herenow would be "do what Jesus told the people in your exact same position to do, that is clearly recorded. And when you get to that new town, and you are staying in one place and eating what they feed you, and you are completely freaking out or something, shoot me a pm then and maybe i can help."

By that time it might too late for you to help, but I'll nonetheless keep it in mind.

On a more serious note, when we first came to God we knew little and probably we were able to easily move in close to God because of our ignorance. The little child is not to be dumb, but rather quite ignorant and naive to simply accept what his trusted parents provide. God wants us to move toward Him by faith, which means as the little child in ignorance and naivety. The problem Christians who started out well is that sometimes they listen too closely to and imitate too perfectly those who are their ministers or more experience fellows in their congregations. This is what I call learning to "quench the Spirit" of God. They teach it [quenching] and we learn it. To do this is to stagnate and die again.

because if the only alt is that you are trying to learn this concept in a church? Aren't they busy re-laying the foundation, over and over? Is the word "sin" ever mentioned there? Then there you go. You are among people learning the foundation, and you are asking for like roof-building instructions, imo. (common "you" there of course A, "one.")

In almost every place in my experience this is true in a measure. Some places or ministers are worse than others. What happened in the wilderness is quite similar, is it not? The people would sin and bring their sacrifice for atonement. They would go out and probably quite often the next needed atonement was for a repeat of a sin they had committed previously. They did not learn.. or is it that they did learn? They learned that it was always possible to receive atonement one more time... or was it?

"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people." Num 15:29-30

So it really is for people today, for God indeed has mercy as He did with David who committed sins worthy of death according to law given to Moses, but God forgave him and reduced the severity of punishment. But... there is a limit to God's mercy especially I believe if a person thinks He can sin repeatedly on the basis of the mercy that God showed him previously...

When can sin after we have repented that first time and be forgiven again, but to do so too often is really tempt God. That is where believers, I believe, end up often stepping over the line with God. One time too many we do that thinking I will repent tomorrow just before the big semi truck traveling at 70+ miles per hour smashes into our little car...

So, "who is to tell it?" For me, someone "outside the camp." But it becomes a Q of "who will you listen to?" as much as "who will tell it."

Always! There may be an anointed man of God who is preaching from what God has written in his heart, but he is preaching to an audience of people with hearing aids and all of them have turned them off for one reason or the other... so they do not hear. The message is transmitted properly but if there is no proper receiver it will not be heard.

for instance i do not expect NBR to tell me that Bitcoin is a good investment, and that several banks were observed to buy the recent dip, or that the $ has crashed over 99% already, and falling. I expect them to tell me that it is a bad investment, very volatile, all with a straight face, see. ps, i'd go with Monero now, for the moment.

Go always to where the truth is being told, my friend. Where that is may not be so obvious to everyone.

 

[bbyrd009]

There are still snake handler groups in Oklahoma, but in my experience they usually have missed the message from God in the verses you cited.

Who are the snakes? Who was the serpent in the garden that lied to Eve? There are probably a lot of people walking around with a serpent or snake nature including some preachers, but if we should have to deal with them their words will not hurt us if we are in the name of Jesus. But most labeled Christians could not tell you what it means to be in his name. Likely a good number of preachers also could not.

I won't go into more of what I believe with regard to the other things you mention from Mark 16...

"I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil." seems to go here, for some reason. Ya, even the words of the less than perfect can be discerned for what they are, and it is the hearing of the hearer that needs to change, right?

 

[amadeus]

and i guess you don't have to do this literally, either, there are spiritual analogues, but they are easier to bail out of.

And who has not done it altogether too often?

 

[bbyrd009]

In a real sense that, I believe, lines up with scripture. Every one who believes in God and expresses it positively in even a measure has already overcome, but this doesn't mean there is no more that still needs to be overcome, does it?

How can anyone get to the point in overcoming where he will receive the rewards of these verses?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev 2:11

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Rev 2:26

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev 3:5

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rec 3:21

Must we be such an overcomer before our time here in this veil of flesh subject to temptation is finished? What becomes of us if we are not?

yes, it does appear that to receive rewards we have to overcome in this life. First imo a definition of what needs to be overcome must be developed, in order to even understand why. And my current guess about what literally happens if we do not runs along the lines of being a witness, every day for "eternity," (as long as it is still "today") of those who did, enjoying their rewards, right there in the same "place" that you might be "suffering." But of course we do not know what we will become, so that amounts to idle gossip imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

By that time it might too late for you to help, but I'll nonetheless keep it in mind.

ha, not you you lol, i don't think that describes you anymore

 

[amadeus]

i'm not sure how an aspiring pastor could even become one, without the world's help now. "Pastor" implies "church," and imo the model breaks right there, even if it serves those without any foundation. So it can imply "service" too, but as a satellite, not a primary thing iow. Running a "church" is running a business, iow.

A person can but they are seldom willing to give up what they would have to give up to do it. Can I serve God without the comfort of my home and my clothes and my car and my computer and my TV set and my Internet connections, etc.? If they receive the advice from God that Jesus gave this man could they or would they do what He advised?

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22

amen! unfortunately this is as much a contrast to our pastors today as it is a comparison. The feet are mentioned there for a reason, right, that does not even apply to our concept of "pastor" today imo. Unless one thinks "beautiful are the feet" means "dancing" or something, lol. And i do not mean to denigrate pastors here ok, not at all. They are called into immediate conflicts of interest before they can even "start pastoring," at least from their pov at that time, and i surely would have done just what they did had i gone into that field at that stage of my walk.

Even "pastor" to me means something different now, my current "pastor" does not even know that he is my pastor, and would even object to the term being applied to him, i bet. A...oh, like a Jose' Mujica type guy, although i have had some real fireballs in the past lol, didn't even get why i was there at the time.

Over the years, in addition to the one pastor/priest I had as Roman Catholic, I have had 8 men over me who bore the title of pastor. Of them all the one I have now works the hardest at being a real pastor striving to follow the example of a shepherd caring for carnal woolly sheep. He also, however, falls short as men will do. Now at 92 years old he will never quit, but his body is failing him and his mind is slipping badly. The wolves are waiting at the door to claim possession of what he has. He really believes that he is working in his calling and will not leave, if he had anything to say about it, until God takes him out of it.

I don't worry about the wolves once he is gone, because not one of them has the connection with God that he has. They will take control and wonder what happened...

 

[amadeus]

"I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil." seems to go here, for some reason. Ya, even the words of the less than perfect can be discerned for what they are, and it is the hearing of the hearer that needs to change, right?

Yes, those words fit very well. Lots of devils who don't even seem to know that that is what they are. Sometimes, I walk in a devil spirit, but God has held me even then and drew me back to Him. Because I'm better? No, I cannot really understand why. God does.

 

[amadeus]

yes, it does appear that to receive rewards we have to overcome in this life. First imo a definition of what needs to be overcome must be developed, in order to even understand why. And my current guess about what literally happens if we do not runs along the lines of being a witness, every day for "eternity," (as long as it is still "today") of those who did, enjoying their rewards, right there in the same "place" that you might be "suffering." But of course we do not know what we will become, so that amounts to idle gossip imo.

This life to me is the testing ground for us. God through Jesus provided the means to accomplish the work that He has for each of us. Jesus spoke to us in parables to explains what would or could be happening depending on our choices and our hearts and what exactly we have at the end done with what He provided.

For me what need to be overcome is summed up in these verses:

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:15-16

Each of us is the world and we must overcome the three temptations which when followed lead us repeatedly to sin: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Jesus did it in his own world of flesh and with His sacrifice and the gift of the Holy Ghost He made it possible for us to do it also. But... most believers keep on saying it is impossible. It is impossible for any man in his flesh alone, but Jesus did not come for nothing...

To help us understand we might also look back at King Saul versus King David. When we understand the difference between them in the eyes of God will perhaps we will begin to understand what it is that God wants from us that we can do...

Recall also David's words to his son, Solomon for the answer or at least for a clue:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, those words fit very well. Lots of devils who don't even seem to know that that is what they are. Sometimes, I walk in a devil spirit, but God has held me even then and drew me back to Him. Because I'm better? No, I cannot really understand why. God does.

ha ya, me too. Why would an omniscient God deliberately pick a devil, do you think?

 

[bbyrd009]

Each of us is the world

yes

and we must overcome the three temptations which when followed lead us repeatedly to sin: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

ya, great start to overcoming. Likely all other examples reduce to these, i guess.

of course "pride of life" is really tough, we instill pride in people, or at least that is called "pride" now, intrinsic to our model of "success" or "achievement," which definitions are of course manipulated for a believer

 

[amadeus]

ha ya, me too. Why would an omniscient God deliberately pick a devil, do you think?

Why did Jesus choose Judas? Did not God know what Judas was and what he would do? Yes, He most certainly did and what does that say to us? Let us pray that God has not chosen us because we are to be devils in the manner of Judas.